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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:48 pm Post subject: Electrical Issue With My VW Powered MKIIIC |
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It is finally Fixed.
Thanks for everyone's input on the issue I was having with my VW powered Kolb MKIIIC. You may not remember but I had a ammeter that started fluttering from -20 amps to + 20 amps. Turns out it was the primary fuel pump. Since it just started doing it after 12 years it was likely it was in short failure mode.
About seven years ago I replaced the Faucet back up fuel pump when it stopped without warning but it was just a back up pump so no big deal.
The new replacement pump is a Carter automotive inline pump. This pump doesn't allow fuel to pass through it when turned off so I had to re plumb my fuel system to put the pumps in parallel with a check valve on the Faucet pump.
Any way it is fixed. Now I need to go back and undo some of the changes I did to track down the problem.
In the process I also changed the battery to one of the new Lithium batteries like Aircraft Spruce sells called AeroVoltz it is a 15 AMP battery and I usually use a cheap 12 AMP lawn mower battery. Any way the battery is more than 10 lb less and boy does it spin the starter.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: Electrical Issue With My VW Powered MKIIIC |
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On 6/27/2014 5:48 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | It is finally Fixed.
Thanks for everyone's input on the issue I was having with my VW powered Kolb MKIIIC. You may not remember but I had a ammeter that started fluttering from -20 amps to + 20 amps. Turns out it was the primary fuel pump. Since it just started doing it after 12 years it was likely it was in short failure mode.
About seven years ago I replaced the Faucet back up fuel pump when it stopped without warning but it was just a back up pump so no big deal.
The new replacement pump is a Carter automotive inline pump. This pump doesn't allow fuel to pass through it when turned off so I had to re plumb my fuel system to put the pumps in parallel with a check valve on the Faucet pump.
Any way it is fixed. Now I need to go back and undo some of the changes I did to track down the problem.
In the process I also changed the battery to one of the new Lithium batteries like Aircraft Spruce sells called AeroVoltz it is a 15 AMP battery and I usually use a cheap 12 AMP lawn mower battery. Any way the battery is more than 10 lb less and boy does it spin the starter.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
|
Hi Rick,
I've forgotten; is your VW 'electrically dependent'? If so, have you verified how long the lithium can keep it running if you lose the alternator? I ask, because many of the lithium starting batteries have tons of starting power, but very limited total energy. There's a big discussion among bigger homebuilt guys right now about how to determine total capacity. Bob Nuckolls recently wrote a good article about the issue in Kitplanes.
FWIW,
Charlie
[quote][b]
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:56 am Post subject: Electrical Issue With My VW Powered MKIIIC |
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Charlie
Lithium batteries have been used in cell phones, and laptop computers for years and ARE known for their large total capacity. We are now seeing them in cordless drills because people want light long lasting power. I understand the drill market is driving lithium development at a much faster pace than expected. My lead acid battery was a 12 AMPH it would just barely start the engine and if it got below 50 degrees F it wouldn't without a jump from my external charger. When I installed the new lithium battery I turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down with no change in cranking speed. My old lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case it is that light.
Yes my ignition system is electrically dependent. Luckily I have a alternator that is bolted to the flywheel so as long as the engine is turning it will produce current. It does have a external regulator which could fail but so far it has been much more reliable than my fuel pumps. Even though the external regulator hadn't really failed it is now new as is most of the electrical system along with extra ground wires, switches, fuel pumps, fuel filters, and a host of other things that I fixed looking for my electrical issue.
Also my empty weight was 598lbs with the new battery and lighter redrive it is 587lbs.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] On 6/27/2014 5:48 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | It is finally Fixed.
Thanks for everyone's input on the issue I was having with my VW powered Kolb MKIIIC. You may not remember but I had a ammeter that started fluttering from -20 amps to + 20 amps. Turns out it was the primary fuel pump. Since it just started doing it after 12 years it was likely it was in short failure mode.
About seven years ago I replaced the Faucet back up fuel pump when it stopped without warning but it was just a back up pump so no big deal.
The new replacement pump is a Carter automotive inline pump. This pump doesn't allow fuel to pass through it when turned off so I had to re plumb my fuel system to put the pumps in parallel with a check valve on the Faucet pump.
Any way it is fixed. Now I need to go back and undo some of the changes I did to track down the problem.
In the process I also changed the battery to one of the new Lithium batteries like Aircraft Spruce sells called AeroVoltz it is a 15 AMP battery and I usually use a cheap 12 AMP lawn mower battery. Any way the battery is more than 10 lb less and boy does it spin the starter.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
|
Hi Rick,
I've forgotten; is your VW 'electrically dependent'? If so, have you verified how long the lithium can keep it running if you lose the alternator? I ask, because many of the lithium starting batteries have tons of starting power, but very limited total energy. There's a big discussion among bigger homebuilt guys right now about how to determine total capacity. Bob Nuckolls recently wrote a good article about the issue in Kitplanes.
FWIW,
Charlie
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get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject: Electrical Issue With My VW Powered MKIIIC |
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I understand all the points you make, but the batteries in cell phones, drills, etc are sized specifically for those applications. On the other hand, most, if not all of the current crop of lithium batteries being offered for starting duties are sized based on their ability to dump tremendous current in a short period of time. That ability does not address the *total energy* available in the battery. There's a difference between available power, and available energy.
Consider a hypothetical Corvette with a 450 hp engine and a 5 gallon fuel tank of fuel, vs a long range econobox with a 100 hp engine and a 20 gallon tank of fuel. The Corvette has over 4 times the power, but the econobox has 4 times the energy available.
The watercraft, motorcycles, etc using the new lithium starting batteries are getting batteries sized like the Corvette with big motor & small tank of gas.
My question was, have you checked the energy capacity of your new lithium starting battery to be sure that it can keep your engine/fuel pumps, etc running long enough to find a safe landing spot if the alternator or regulator fails.
With your particular installation, engine current demand, and typical flight duration, it may not be a factor at all. For bigger homebuilts that typically fly longer missions, it can be a big issue. In any case, I'd want to know whether my engine will quit 10 minutes or 2 hours after the alternator stops making energy.
Charlie
On 6/28/2014 9:56 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
[quote] Charlie
Lithium batteries have been used in cell phones, and laptop computers for years and ARE known for their large total capacity. We are now seeing them in cordless drills because people want light long lasting power. I understand the drill market is driving lithium development at a much faster pace than expected. My lead acid battery was a 12 AMPH it would just barely start the engine and if it got below 50 degrees F it wouldn't without a jump from my external charger. When I installed the new lithium battery I turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down with no change in cranking speed. My old lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case it is that light.
Yes my ignition system is electrically dependent. Luckily I have a alternator that is bolted to the flywheel so as long as the engine is turning it will produce current. It does have a external regulator which could fail but so far it has been much more reliable than my fuel pumps. Even though the external regulator hadn't really failed it is now new as is most of the electrical system along with extra ground wires, switches, fuel pumps, fuel filters, and a host of other things that I fixed looking for my electrical issue.
Also my empty weight was 598lbs with the new battery and lighter redrive it is 587lbs.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On 6/27/2014 5:48 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | It is finally Fixed.
Thanks for everyone's input on the issue I was having with my VW powered Kolb MKIIIC. You may not remember but I had a ammeter that started fluttering from -20 amps to + 20 amps. Turns out it was the primary fuel pump. Since it just started doing it after 12 years it was likely it was in short failure mode.
About seven years ago I replaced the Faucet back up fuel pump when it stopped without warning but it was just a back up pump so no big deal.
The new replacement pump is a Carter automotive inline pump. This pump doesn't allow fuel to pass through it when turned off so I had to re plumb my fuel system to put the pumps in parallel with a check valve on the Faucet pump.
Any way it is fixed. Now I need to go back and undo some of the changes I did to track down the problem.
In the process I also changed the battery to one of the new Lithium batteries like Aircraft Spruce sells called AeroVoltz it is a 15 AMP battery and I usually use a cheap 12 AMP lawn mower battery. Any way the battery is more than 10 lb less and boy does it spin the starter.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
|
Hi Rick,
I've forgotten; is your VW 'electrically dependent'? If so, have you verified how long the lithium can keep it running if you lose the alternator? I ask, because many of the lithium starting batteries have tons of starting power, but very limited total energy. There's a big discussion among bigger homebuilt guys right now about how to determine total capacity. Bob Nuckolls recently wrote a good article about the issue in Kitplanes.
FWIW,
Charlie
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
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| Back to top |
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:49 pm Post subject: Electrical Issue With My VW Powered MKIIIC |
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|
Chairly
You have hijacked the point of my post. If you want to debate lithium on your own thread be my guest.
I have a fixed airplane and I'm happy with it.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 10:34 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] I understand all the points you make, but the batteries in cell phones, drills, etc are sized specifically for those applications. On the other hand, most, if not all of the current crop of lithium batteries being offered for starting duties are sized based on their ability to dump tremendous current in a short period of time. That ability does not address the *total energy* available in the battery. There's a difference between available power, and available energy.
Consider a hypothetical Corvette with a 450 hp engine and a 5 gallon fuel tank of fuel, vs a long range econobox with a 100 hp engine and a 20 gallon tank of fuel. The Corvette has over 4 times the power, but the econobox has 4 times the energy available.
The watercraft, motorcycles, etc using the new lithium starting batteries are getting batteries sized like the Corvette with big motor & small tank of gas.
My question was, have you checked the energy capacity of your new lithium starting battery to be sure that it can keep your engine/fuel pumps, etc running long enough to find a safe landing spot if the alternator or regulator fails.
With your particular installation, engine current demand, and typical flight duration, it may not be a factor at all. For bigger homebuilts that typically fly longer missions, it can be a big issue. In any case, I'd want to know whether my engine will quit 10 minutes or 2 hours after the alternator stops making energy.
Charlie
On 6/28/2014 9:56 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Charlie
Lithium batteries have been used in cell phones, and laptop computers for years and ARE known for their large total capacity. We are now seeing them in cordless drills because people want light long lasting power. I understand the drill market is driving lithium development at a much faster pace than expected. My lead acid battery was a 12 AMPH it would just barely start the engine and if it got below 50 degrees F it wouldn't without a jump from my external charger. When I installed the new lithium battery I turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down with no change in cranking speed. My old lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case it is that light.
Yes my ignition system is electrically dependent. Luckily I have a alternator that is bolted to the flywheel so as long as the engine is turning it will produce current. It does have a external regulator which could fail but so far it has been much more reliable than my fuel pumps. Even though the external regulator hadn't really failed it is now new as is most of the electrical system along with extra ground wires, switches, fuel pumps, fuel filters, and a host of other things that I fixed looking for my electrical issue.
Also my empty weight was 598lbs with the new battery and lighter redrive it is 587lbs.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On 6/27/2014 5:48 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | It is finally Fixed.
Thanks for everyone's input on the issue I was having with my VW powered Kolb MKIIIC. You may not remember but I had a ammeter that started fluttering from -20 amps to + 20 amps. Turns out it was the primary fuel pump. Since it just started doing it after 12 years it was likely it was in short failure mode.
About seven years ago I replaced the Faucet back up fuel pump when it stopped without warning but it was just a back up pump so no big deal.
The new replacement pump is a Carter automotive inline pump. This pump doesn't allow fuel to pass through it when turned off so I had to re plumb my fuel system to put the pumps in parallel with a check valve on the Faucet pump.
Any way it is fixed. Now I need to go back and undo some of the changes I did to track down the problem.
In the process I also changed the battery to one of the new Lithium batteries like Aircraft Spruce sells called AeroVoltz it is a 15 AMP battery and I usually use a cheap 12 AMP lawn mower battery. Any way the battery is more than 10 lb less and boy does it spin the starter.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
|
Hi Rick,
I've forgotten; is your VW 'electrically dependent'? If so, have you verified how long the lithium can keep it running if you lose the alternator? I ask, because many of the lithium starting batteries have tons of starting power, but very limited total energy. There's a big discussion among bigger homebuilt guys right now about how to determine total capacity. Bob Nuckolls recently wrote a good article about the issue in Kitplanes.
FWIW,
Charlie
|
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
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| Back to top |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:31 am Post subject: Electrical Issue With My VW Powered MKIIIC |
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Hi Rick,
It was not my intention to offend you, or hijack your thread. It was simply to ask if you'd considered one possible downside to your battery change. Sometimes changes can have unintended consequences. I've had it happen to me, and I suspect that it's happened to almost everyone, especially those who dabble in experimental aviation.
Please accept my apologies, and I'll try to refrain from offending you in the future.
Charlie
On 6/28/2014 11:49 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
[quote] Chairly
You have hijacked the point of my post. If you want to debate lithium on your own thread be my guest.
I have a fixed airplane and I'm happy with it.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 10:34 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I understand all the points you make, but the batteries in cell phones, drills, etc are sized specifically for those applications. On the other hand, most, if not all of the current crop of lithium batteries being offered for starting duties are sized based on their ability to dump tremendous current in a short period of time. That ability does not address the *total energy* available in the battery. There's a difference between available power, and available energy.
Consider a hypothetical Corvette with a 450 hp engine and a 5 gallon fuel tank of fuel, vs a long range econobox with a 100 hp engine and a 20 gallon tank of fuel. The Corvette has over 4 times the power, but the econobox has 4 times the energy available.
The watercraft, motorcycles, etc using the new lithium starting batteries are getting batteries sized like the Corvette with big motor & small tank of gas.
My question was, have you checked the energy capacity of your new lithium starting battery to be sure that it can keep your engine/fuel pumps, etc running long enough to find a safe landing spot if the alternator or regulator fails.
With your particular installation, engine current demand, and typical flight duration, it may not be a factor at all. For bigger homebuilts that typically fly longer missions, it can be a big issue. In any case, I'd want to know whether my engine will quit 10 minutes or 2 hours after the alternator stops making energy.
Charlie
On 6/28/2014 9:56 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Charlie
Lithium batteries have been used in cell phones, and laptop computers for years and ARE known for their large total capacity. We are now seeing them in cordless drills because people want light long lasting power. I understand the drill market is driving lithium development at a much faster pace than expected. My lead acid battery was a 12 AMPH it would just barely start the engine and if it got below 50 degrees F it wouldn't without a jump from my external charger. When I installed the new lithium battery I turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down with no change in cranking speed. My old lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case it is that light.
Yes my ignition system is electrically dependent. Luckily I have a alternator that is bolted to the flywheel so as long as the engine is turning it will produce current. It does have a external regulator which could fail but so far it has been much more reliable than my fuel pumps. Even though the external regulator hadn't really failed it is now new as is most of the electrical system along with extra ground wires, switches, fuel pumps, fuel filters, and a host of other things that I fixed looking for my electrical issue.
Also my empty weight was 598lbs with the new battery and lighter redrive it is 587lbs.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On 6/27/2014 5:48 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | It is finally Fixed.
Thanks for everyone's input on the issue I was having with my VW powered Kolb MKIIIC. You may not remember but I had a ammeter that started fluttering from -20 amps to + 20 amps. Turns out it was the primary fuel pump. Since it just started doing it after 12 years it was likely it was in short failure mode.
About seven years ago I replaced the Faucet back up fuel pump when it stopped without warning but it was just a back up pump so no big deal.
The new replacement pump is a Carter automotive inline pump. This pump doesn't allow fuel to pass through it when turned off so I had to re plumb my fuel system to put the pumps in parallel with a check valve on the Faucet pump.
Any way it is fixed. Now I need to go back and undo some of the changes I did to track down the problem.
In the process I also changed the battery to one of the new Lithium batteries like Aircraft Spruce sells called AeroVoltz it is a 15 AMP battery and I usually use a cheap 12 AMP lawn mower battery. Any way the battery is more than 10 lb less and boy does it spin the starter.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
|
Hi Rick,
I've forgotten; is your VW 'electrically dependent'? If so, have you verified how long the lithium can keep it running if you lose the alternator? I ask, because many of the lithium starting batteries have tons of starting power, but very limited total energy. There's a big discussion among bigger homebuilt guys right now about how to determine total capacity. Bob Nuckolls recently wrote a good article about the issue in Kitplanes.
FWIW,
Charlie
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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