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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:06 am Post subject: Lithium Batteries |
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We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we are getting more experience with them so please share your experience in your airplane.
Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to achieve a long life.
Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours (ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are some that may over state the performance/values of their products.
Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do other bad things???
I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing 12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did the recommended top off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with no change in cranking speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it is that light. I always kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid battery because it was so low in power and they do self discharge. With the tested power of the lithium battery I will not be using the battery maintainer. I also don't know if the maintainer is ok with lithium batteries. The manual with my Lithium battery states that there is less than a 10% discharge per year. Also I stated from memory that my plane weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that was before the battery change and redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs. Redoing my weight and balance calculations
Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you are debating with someone please read the others responses.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:08 am Post subject: Lithium Batteries |
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Rick, As Charlie said there has been an ongoing discussion of Lithium battery chemistry and products on the Aeroelectric Connection here on the Matronics Lists.The main issue for most of us is how long will a Li batt keep things running if the electrical generation system on the aircraft goes down. When Bob Nuckolls, AEC guru, put the question to ALL the manufacturers the answers were vague. Claims of "lead acid battery equivalency" in particular are meaningless.
One would expect that an 18 Amp hour battery would produce 18 amps for one hour or 1 amp for 18 hours. This turned out not to be the case. While the Li batts were great at cranking, their fall off to below workable limits, say time to producing 10 volts at a 5 amp draw, was measured in minutes rather than hours. Only one manufacturer was willing to work with Bob to define and refine the technology. That work is ongoing as I type.
The general consensus of those following the discussion is that the technology is premature for electrically dependent aircraft. As one fellow put it, better to pocket the extra money, diet to lose 10 pounds, and stick with SLA battery technology.
No personal attack intended or implied. As Joe Friday used to say, "Just the facts".
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we are getting more experience with them so please share your experience in your airplane.
Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to achieve a long life.
Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours (ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are some that may over state the performance/values of their products.
Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do other bad things???
I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing 12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did the recommended top off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with no change in cranking speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it is that light. I always kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid battery because it was so low in power and they do self discharge. With the tested power of the lithium battery I will not be using the battery maintainer. I also don't know if the maintainer is ok with lithium batteries. The manual with my Lithium battery states that there is less than a 10% discharge per year. Also I stated from memory that my plane weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that was before the battery change and redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs. Redoing my weight and balance calculations
Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you are debating with someone please read the others responses.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: Lithium Batteries |
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Richard
No offence taken. It would be good to know the batteries tested. Amp hour isn't just a arbitrary term. If a battery isn't performing to that standard we need to know about it. I'm not in denial, lithium batteries are known for their long term power levels. Cell phone, laptop, drill, or electric car manufactures would test and go else where if the long term power was as you imply are a fraction of lead acid power (not a fact but seems logical).
My plane was never designed to run for hours without an alternator. Seems like my multi coil ignition system can draw up to 20 amps so it was never expected to keep the engine running very long on battery. The testing I did with my lithium battery seems to say that it would keep my plane flying longer than the old lead acid battery would. I built my plane with the best parts I could buy (this side of Rotax) and built in as much redundancy as is possible when reliability is in question and my fly wheel mounted alternator isn't something I worry about. As for losing weight that has been difficult for me so loosing 10 lbs in my plane is important.
Still looking for those FACTS.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Rick, As Charlie said there has been an ongoing discussion of Lithium battery chemistry and products on the Aeroelectric Connection here on the Matronics Lists.The main issue for most of us is how long will a Li batt keep things running if the electrical generation system on the aircraft goes down. When Bob Nuckolls, AEC guru, put the question to ALL the manufacturers the answers were vague. Claims of "lead acid battery equivalency" in particular are meaningless.
One would expect that an 18 Amp hour battery would produce 18 amps for one hour or 1 amp for 18 hours. This turned out not to be the case. While the Li batts were great at cranking, their fall off to below workable limits, say time to producing 10 volts at a 5 amp draw, was measured in minutes rather than hours. Only one manufacturer was willing to work with Bob to define and refine the technology. That work is ongoing as I type.
The general consensus of those following the discussion is that the technology is premature for electrically dependent aircraft. As one fellow put it, better to pocket the extra money, diet to lose 10 pounds, and stick with SLA battery technology.
No personal attack intended or implied. As Joe Friday used to say, "Just the facts".
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we are getting more experience with them so please share your experience in your airplane.
Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to achieve a long life.
Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours (ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are some that may over state the performance/values of their products.
Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do other bad things???
I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing 12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did the recommended top off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with no change in cranking speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it is that light. I always kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid battery because it was so low in power and they do self discharge. With the tested power of the lithium battery I will not be using the battery maintainer. I also don't know if the maintainer is ok with lithium batteries. The manual with my Lithium battery states that there is less than a 10% discharge per year. Also I stated from memory that my plane weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that was before the battery change and redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs. Redoing my weight and balance calculations
Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you are debating with someone please read the others responses.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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tp://forums.matronics.com
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olendorf
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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I converted my motorcycle to lithium and figured out the hard way. I used to be able to go 3 weeks between rides and my battery would be fine. With lithium I can't go 4 days without putting it on a charger.
I think you'll find that they do NOT rate their batteries in AH like they should. They usually use LEAD-equivalent AH rating. So perhaps they have a 5AH lithium and that cranks the engine like a 15AH lead acid would they can call that 15AH Equivalent. Very misleading when you are trying to figure out how long your battery will run your load when the engine stops. If you find one rated in real Amp-hours then you're good to go.
See here; http://www.aerovoltz.com/av16.html
Did you notice this? Amperage 28 Pbeq A/H
pb eq - lead equivalent.
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Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
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209GS
Joined: 07 Dec 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Richmond Va.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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I have one in my Honda 1800VTX motorcycle and it started up no problem after sitting all winter, not sure why yours discharged in 4 days?
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Gerry Uebbing
Firestar II 503 b-box
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olendorf
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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That I'm not so sure about either. There is definitely a constant draw on this bike for some reason. A BMW f650gs, fuel injected with a clock. I don't know what sucks the juice down. Not really the battery's fault but those AH are really are important to me. Maybe I just have a defective battery. All I'm saying is to be mindful of AH and pbeq AH.
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Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:41 pm Post subject: Lithium Batteries |
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Scott, Could there be a button cell, like a CR2032 somewhere that has expired and the main battery is picking up the slack? Yeah, I know, it's not Kolb, but the bandwidth on the site hasn't exactly been blazing lately.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 7:02 PM, olendorf <olendorf(at)gmail.com (olendorf(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "olendorf" <olendorf(at)gmail.com (olendorf(at)gmail.com)>
That I'm not so sure about either. There is definitely a constant draw on this bike for some reason. A BMW f650gs, fuel injected with a clock. I don't know what sucks the juice down. Not really the battery's fault but those AH are really are important to me. Maybe I just have a defective battery. All I'm saying is to be mindful of AH and pbeq AH.
--------
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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olendorf
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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Hmmm. Possibly there is a button cell in there. Time to crack open the owner's manual. Maybe I should just ride it more! Nothing I like more than to ride to the airport and go flying.
Good times.
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Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
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Larlaeb
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 75
Location: League City, Texas United States
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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I got my lithium battery a little over a year ago and it's been turning over my 912 very well for all that time. I have had times during the winter and during carburetor tuning when I have had to spin it quite a bit and so far it hasn't failed to to do well. It has also gone through several weeks of not being used and still seems to hold a full charge. I'm not sure how it would do in really cold weather. This information may not be helpful regarding providing ignition for long periods but there do seem to be several types of lithium batteries. Some designed for starting and others for deep cycle for use in powering electric cars and the like.
My specs:
Weight: 1106 grams (2.44 lb)
Voltage (Charged): 13.6V
Amperage: 20 Pb-eq A/H
Pulse Cranking Amps: 410 CCA
Thanks,
Allan
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