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DOOR detached during flight
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max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:50 am Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

Jons,



 	  Quote: 	
		   This is generally limited to the flattish flange of the inboard rear top

corner of the door which over time becomes curled up a little causing rather
	


an unsightly > gap at that corner.  This deformation can be "reset" given

time with ingenious use of weights/ straps/ pressure etc plus careful

warming of the corner.  (The gas > strut repositioning mod addresses this

problem and helps prevent it happening though I've not fitted it to mine).



Nop! Just apply the mod and the door will come back at the right place and

will not be deformed anymore. I know it because I did it 



 	  Quote: 	
		   The "twisting" I referred to is simply caused by the (quite flexible) door

being twisted when it is open by the fact that it only has one gas strut
	


fitted to one > edge of the door.



May be, but don’t care! I'm used to taxi with my door semi open during days

and I close it when lining up and I just verify the two bolts (specially the

rear one) are engaged on pushing on the door as the last point of your check

list before take-off! (And reopen it and close it again correctly if it

happens that one is disengaged)



Max  Cointe

mcointe(at)free.fr

F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 520 hours



F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S 

Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1650 heures

-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de JonSmith

Envoyé : mardi 1 juillet 2014 18:34

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: DOOR detached during flight




--> <jonsmitheuropa(at)tiscali.co.uk>



Hi, just to clarify and expand on my previous comments and noting the very

valid comments by John Wighton and others, the doors, even when closed can

be semi permanently deformed by the continuous action of the gas strut (mine

certainly has). This is generally limited to the flattish flange of the

inboard rear top corner of the door which over time becomes curled up a

little causing rather an unsightly gap at that corner.  This deformation can

be "reset" given time with ingenious use of weights/ straps/ pressure etc

plus careful warming of the corner.  (The gas strut repositioning mod

addresses this problem and helps prevent it happening though I've not fitted

it to mine). 



I don't think this is the cause of people failing to lock the door correctly

though.  The "twisting" I referred to is simply caused by the (quite

flexible) door being twisted when it is open by the fact that it only has

one gas strut fitted to one edge of the door.  If it had two gas struts, one

at the front and one at the rear it wouldn't twist - but think of the extra

weight....!  On mine, if I disconnect the gas strut the door lowers down

completely straight and fits perfectly into the frame with no extra fiddling

required. When I reconnect the gas strut then due to the induced twist,

after I have lowered it I need to give the bottom of the door my previously

mentioned gentle nudge forward to pop it fully into position (ie. to allow

the rear edge of the door to move fully inwards and fully home).  It's a bit

like on my old estate car - one of the gas struts failed on the boot

(trunk!) lid and the boot was a pig to shut because the one remaining

(strong) gas strut twisted !

 the thin boot lid so much it needed a huge sideways force to make it fit!

Like John, I am completely convinced that the door design is very good and

completely sound but that this is just one of those things that we all "need

to know" and that we all religiously check that the front and especially the

(harder to see!) rear of the door is correctly shut and in the correct

position with the shoot bolts engaged.  Someone mentioned about warning

devices - it's a very personal thing but I prefer not to rely on bells and

whistles which might let me down one day but rely on myself to visually

check each time. I just pray that I don't let myself down one day!

I guess an issue is, and this will always be a risk, where someone less

familiar with the day to day operating of the plane flies it - classic

example being the engineer as the original poster mentioned.  As owners I

suppose this will need to be one of many briefing points covered.



--------

G-TERN

Classic Mono





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425855#425855

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

g-fizy

Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 46
Location: uk

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: DOOR detached during flight

thanks for all your comments here is a pic of the front hinge ,its very thin but i am no expert ,i wonder if this did fail would the door coming  off not damage the holes that the lock bars go into as the door ripped away as it took one hell of a chunk from the fuselage

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Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

jim.davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  here is a pic of the front hinge ,its very thin but i am no expert ,i wonder if this did fail would the door coming  off not damage the holes that the lock bars go into as the door ripped away as it took one hell of a chunk from the fuselage 	




Jim…and was that “chunk from the fuselage” adjacent to the front shoot bolt receptacle or the rear one? If we can assume that take off did not occur with NEITHER shoot bolts engaged, I would think therein lies the answer to whether or not the loss of door was initiated by improper engagement of one or the other shoot bolts…

In any event, you have my sympathies,

Fred



 [quote][b]

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:42 pm Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

Talking of experts, have you spoken to Malcolm McBride at the LAA about

this.  He could examine the hinge to determine if there was a pre-existing

crack that could have caused a failure.



Regards



Brian Davies



--

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:05 am Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

If the door was correctly fitted to open freely and the strut positioned in

such a way that there was not effort on the hinge when fully open, then

there is no reason (not enough efforts) that this hinge breaks in flight

when the door is closed. So it broke when the door opened then departed.

I did fly with a crack on one hinge for month before I replaced it... and

it's the other door who departed because of the rear pin not correctly

engaged!



Max  Cointe

mcointe(at)free.fr

F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 520 hours



F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S 

Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1650 heures

--

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

daseitz(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:08 am Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

Where was the fuselage chunck removed from?  Was it at one of the lock pin sockets?

Dean Seitz



---- "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr> wrote: 



[quote] 

 

 If the door was correctly fitted to open freely and the strut positioned in

 such a way that there was not effort on the hinge when fully open, then

 there is no reason (not enough efforts) that this hinge breaks in flight

 when the door is closed. So it broke when the door opened then departed.

 I did fly with a crack on one hinge for month before I replaced it... and

 it's the other door who departed because of the rear pin not correctly

 engaged!

 

 Max  Cointe

 mcointe(at)free.fr

 F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

 Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 520 hours

 

 F-PLDJ DynÂ’AÃ©ro MCR 4S 

 Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1650 heures

 

 

 --

g-fizy

Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 46
Location: uk

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: Re: DOOR detached during flight

re chunk ,,, the chunk is near the top end of the rear of the door ,i have no idea how that happend



Has any one thought of a extra lock in the middle of the door,separate from the door lock that should hold if the rear is not engaged correctly

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:27 pm Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

Yes. Mal McLure, years ago. 

Kingsley, do you have details of it?

Graham



        From: g-fizy <jim.davis1(at)me.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2014, 20:03

 Subject: Re: DOOR detached during flight

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "g-fizy" <jim.davis1(at)me.com (jim.davis1(at)me.com)>



re chunk ,,, the chunk is near the top end of the rear of the door ,i have no idea how that happend



Has any one thought of a extra lock in the middle of the door,separate from the door lock that should hold if the rear is not engaged correctly



--------

owner g-fizy





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/v <a href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blannbsp;                 -Matt Dralle,tribution" =======

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 240

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: DOOR detached during flight

Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break.  The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear-out failure mode.  The force generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structure would have failed.



There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture.  Build to the spec and ensure the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable.



Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK).



Regards

JW

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:59 am Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

John,





But is it not desirable that the hinges fail when the door opens in flight ? Rather than having the door flapping about and doing untold damage ?

Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: DOOR detached during flight

 From: john(at)wighton.net

 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 00:26:43 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net>

 

 Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break.  The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear-out failure mode.  The force generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structure would have failed.

 

 There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture.  Build to the spec and ensure the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable.

 

 Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK).

 

 Regards

 JW

 

 --------

 John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058

 

 

=
	


 	  Quote:

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:34 am Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

Karl

it is desireable that the hinges let go, rather than tearing out half the side of the fuselage.

The force on a door behaving like a wing is considerable.

Graham



        From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>

 To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" <europa-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Friday, 4 July 2014, 11:58

 Subject: RE: Re: DOOR detached during flight

   

 

   John,





But is it not desirable that the hinges fail when the door opens in flight ? Rather than having the door flapping about and doing untold damage ?

Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: DOOR detached during flight

 From: john(at)wighton.net

 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 00:26:43 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net>

 

 Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break.  The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear-out failure mode.  The force generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structure would have failed.

 

 There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture.  Build to the spec and ensure the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable.

  

 Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK).

 

 Regards

 JW

 

 --------

 John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058

 

 

=
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	




 		 	   		  



  [quote]ank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.mat"nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f==========


[b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:39 am Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

ï»¿  <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->                        [img]cid:003b01cf97bf$77439820$3D78DB64(at)Yerly[/img][img]cid:003c01cf97bf$77485310$3D78DB64(at)Yerly[/img] Photo E-mail           [url=https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=2161856909618aa7&page=play&resid=2161856909618AA7!355&parId=2161856909618AA7!130&type=5&authkey=!AMh42rDkVTfHM0E]View        slideshow [/url]| [url=https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=2161856909618aa7&page=downloadphotos&resid=2161856909618AA7!355&parId=2161856909618AA7!130&type=5&authkey=!AMh42rDkVTfHM0E]Download        images [/url]   Karl, and all.

 As Graham said, we do want the hinges to fail.  The door tab may fail  as well.  You are right as usual Karl.  Who cares about the door as  long as it comes off and doesn't affect flight characteristics. 

  

 Any damage to the top of the aircraft, in my experience,  is  caused by grinding, or crushing the glass with the hardware, in  the installation of the hinges.  This is where the glass can get  compromised.  Some damage will always occur during a door detachment.   Although I have seen poor layups in this area where there was only gelcoat  holding one corner of the rebate in the hinge top.  A couple layers of  glass and a bit of filler fixes that during the build.

  

 If built as per the manual with stronger hinges, you can  count on a door that opens in flight, will really tear up  the top attachment area.  You'll be doing a much larger repair for  sure.  If many different knobs, straps, locks, hold down fixtures are  attached to the door it will have more momentum and even more damage will  occur.  

  

 If one builds the hinges as described and puts the hardware and washers as  depicted (bed them in flox if you must due to the curves and such) and there are  no manufacturing flaws,  the door departs with only minimal damage to  the hinge attach points.  Usually it is fixable in a few hours then  fill sand prime and paint.

  

 The doors as designed will last many years without damage as proved on our  oldest aircraft.  If you damage your door while running up with the door  open, it is your fault, not the doors.  If you allow the door to flip open  in gusty conditions, it is your fault.  If you leave the door open on the  ground because it is hot, and another plane blasts yours (like I did) it is your  fault.  If you have bad struts, replace them with new ones and do the mod  66 or alternate as on my website to save weight and eliminate the door lift  problem.  (I even contracted a US factory to build new struts exclusively  for me and my clients.  Metal fittings, fairly inexpensive, and I figure at  five years just replace them with the hoses on the engine and fuel  system.  There are no 970-3s on the back of the fuselage door strut ball  attachment so it will pull out with a smaller hole and less damage if the metal  end doesn't release.)  If the door doesn't fit, won't close, or latch  without a hydraulic ram, fix it.  

  

 If you want a plane to last forever, it won't, but say you did, it would  weigh a ton more due to all the extra stuff you must add for bullet proof  longevity. 

  

 I grudgingly learned to do the maintenance and follow an IRAN (Inspect and  Repair As Necessary) annual inspection discipline.  I program replacement  of components as part of a time change schedule.  I list all my consumables  on the computer and keep stock.

  

 Two good old rules:

 If you want to add something to the airplane, throw it up in the air and if  it hits the ground with a THUNK, its too heavy to be installed.

 If you change one thing on a proven design, it affects 20 others.

  

 See Drawing Attached or below.  I don't know which shows on  matronics:

  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

  

                   [url=https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=2161856909618aa7&page=play&resid=2161856909618AA7!356&parId=2161856909618AA7!355&type=1&authkey=!AMh42rDkVTfHM0E][img]cid:003d01cf97bf$774a9d00$3D78DB64(at)Yerly[/img][/url]

               

    

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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

John and all,

Mal Mc Lures "lock" design is a simple two engaging blocks such that the door is closed and the middle part of the door frame is pulled in, and over this step arrangement. They are no more than 20x20 x 6mm in size, with a single rivet holding them in place, and maybe some redux underneath, knowing how Mal built. So you close the door, pull in at the middle bottom until it clicks, and then actuate closed. If something so simple needs a mod, and how you would do any stress analysis, and of what, anything is a mute point. I would say it would be impossible and based on a raft of other suppositions. It's a simple addition, not a mod per se. 

TR

Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 4 Jul 2014, at 2:26 am, "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break.  The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear-out failure mode.  The force generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structure would have failed.

 

 There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture.  Build to the spec and ensure the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable.

 

 Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK).

 

 Regards

 JW

 

 --------

 John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:52 pm Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

Tony

exactly! Perfect description of what to me was obvious but my tongue isn't

fluent enough to describe it. Or maybe I haven't the patience top type it out! {{!:-0

Graham





        From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>

 To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" <europa-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Friday, 4 July 2014, 21:43

 Subject: Re: Re: DOOR detached during  flight

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>



John and all,

Mal Mc Lures "lock" design is a simple two engaging blocks such that the door is closed and the middle part of the door frame is pulled in, and over this step arrangement. They are no more than 20x20 x 6mm in size, with a single rivet holding them in place, and maybe some redux underneath, knowing how Mal built. So you close the door, pull in at the middle bottom until it clicks, and then actuate closed. If something so simple needs a mod, and how you would do any stress analysis, and of what, anything is a mute point. I would say it would be impossible and based on a raft of other suppositions. It's a simple addition, not a mod per se. 

TR

Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 4 Jul 2014, at  2:26 am, "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)> wrote:

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>

 

 Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break.  The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear-out failure mode.  The force generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structure would have failed.

 

 There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture.  Build to the spec and ensure the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable.

 

 Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK).

 

 Regards

 JW

 

 --------

  John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

nbsp;  --> http://forums.matronics                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================
	


 

  

  

 [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 790

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: DOOR detached during flight

Hi Group



  FWIW I used a single passive pin and striker made out of Stainless for the center of the door. The door has a high enough factor of "wiggleation" to easily allow engagement when closing:

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=29082&g2_page=3

(near top)

  If the rear shoot isn't engaged, my bet would be that the door is going to depart in flight even with the passive pin.

  BTW I used a modified McMaster suction cup (a little below middle of page 3 link) for a door pull handle. If an extension rope is needed it's EZ added. 

  In addition to using checklist to check door before take off, I added McMaster switches to the rear shoot:

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=29497

(near bottom)

These are very nice water resistant high quality switches, the same I'm using on my outriggers and Beechcraft uses for their gear interlocks. My business is copiers. Over the years I have seen Osram and many other low time switches go flaky and not make all the time (minimal, moderate and near rated current draw). Thus far I never had a problem with the outrageous expensive McMaster switches I've used for applications I want tainted for best reliability.

Ron Parigoris

g-fizy

Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 46
Location: uk

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: DOOR detached during flight

just a note the front hinge broke and the back hinge remained intact 

i dont no if they was the cause of the door failing ,,BUT i have had i lot of been Their Done that comments .

So How many Doors have Detached In flight 



even if the back pin has not located correctly the front should still be able to keep the door closed for safty reasons 



i am just glad they got down ok looking at the elevator damage they were lucky

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:04 am Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

Graham,

Sorry but my previous email went prematurely for some unknown reason. 

I shall try again .........

The little auxiliary latches you refer to on Mal's plane do not guarantee the proper engagement of the rear shoot bolts.  I have had several instances where the rear shoot bolt has not engaged properly but so far it has been quite obvious at the time.   I find the doors are somewhat temperamental to temperature and how long they have been left open.  Most of the time they shut quite easily but sometimes they are the pits to shut from the inside and the little latches have no affect in respect of either. 

Cheers mate

Kingsley



Sent from my iPad



On 4 Jul 2014, at 7:24 am, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

[quote]Yes. Mal McLure, years ago. 

Kingsley, do you have details of it?

Graham

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:58 am Post subject: DOOR detached during flight

That's disappointing. I was sure when he demonstrated it to me that the rear bolt

had to go in if the latch was engaged.



I spent several days designing and building a third bolt midway along the rail. 

(Paul McAllister's XS) On that one the bolts would not move unless the middle 

bolt could enter its hole. Not really keen on it though, it weakens the rail and is really fiddly to do.



Graham





     

The little auxiliary latches you refer to on Mal's plane do not guarantee the proper engagement of the rear shoot bolts.  I have  had several instances where the rear shoot bolt has not engaged properly but so far it has been quite obvious at the time.   I find the doors are somewhat temperamental to temperature and how long they have been left open.  Most of the time they shut quite easily but sometimes they are the pits to shut from the inside and the little latches have no affect in respect of either. 

Cheers mate

Kingsley



Sent from my iPad



On 4 Jul 2014, at 7:24 am, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

[quote]Yes. Mal McLure, years ago. 

Kingsley, do you have details  of it?

Graham

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contributi==


[b]

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 240

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:33 am Post subject: Re: DOOR detached during flight

The idea of a hinge designed to fail first after a door opening in flight incident is interesting.  Best to prevent the door opening in the first place?



The C150 Aerobat and other planes have doors that can be jettisoned deliberately to aid egress in the event of an inflight incident (like the wings folding maybe).  This idea seems sound as it is in keeping with the regs for the category of aircraft.



For those who wish to add structurally inefficient kgs to the weight of their aircraft then reinforcing the doors may be a route they wish to take.  But where does this process end?  Double harnesses in case one fails? Spare set of wings! 



If the number of unintended canopy/door incidents is sufficient the LAA will no doubt take a view and introduce a fix via an MPD.  Personally l think the incidents recorded appear to be low in comparison to the total fleet flights.  Perhaps we can get this info from MM at the LAA?

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

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