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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: Oil injection?

I have an aquaintence who is buying a Kolb that has a 503 on it with low time. The question is  concerning the oil injection that is on it. He has heard some "horror" stories concerning oil injection. I am of the opinion that it is a good thing to have, but I have no real experience with that feature. I would appreciate all comments good or bad about this feature, so that he can make up his mind about whether to leave it on the engine or not. Thanks for all input,

Larry 



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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: Oil injection?

Larry,

Had over 700hrs on my oil injected 503,the first 100 hrs on 100LL av gas. It took 400hrs before the top ring got sticky andI did a decarbon. I loved it and have great faith in the Rotax503 engineering team and their oil injection system. G. Aman

Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 17, 2014, at 4:59 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]I have an aquaintence who is buying a Kolb that has a 503 on it with low time. The question is  concerning the oil injection that is on it. He has heard some "horror" stories concerning oil injection. I am of the opinion that it is a good thing to have, but I have no real experience with that feature. I would appreciate all comments good or bad about this feature, so that he can make up his mind about whether to leave it on the engine or not. Thanks for all input,

Larry 



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alienwes

Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 64
Location: Roswell, NM

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection?

I premixed on my first powered parachute with a 582.  I now have oil injection on my current machine. I asked the same question on another forum and like the following response best:

The 582's oil mixture is a variable ratio mixture and if you disable the injector then you will be running the engine oil rich almost all of the time. When your engine is at idle the oil/fuel ratio is 100:1. When your engine is at full throttle the injector increases the oil volume to a ratio of 50:1. If you mix at 50:1 then you run too much oil at all throttle settings other than wide open. This will cause plugs to prematurely foul and will also cause excessive carbon build up inside the engine. Some people would rather change plugs more often and decarb the engine more frequently but my opinion is that the injector would be better off left alone. Just make certain that when you pre-flight look at the injector and make sure it is opening when you push the throttle to the open position. If it does not open then you will run too lean on oil and eventually burn up the engine, and PLEASE don't ask me how I know that! Let the oil injector work and do the job it was intended to do.



I hope to be able to fly fixed wing one day. I have a 630 foot strip at my new property but will need to expand it to 900 feet. I really like PPC but there's something about these STOL capable, wing foldable, and great visibility planes!

_________________
Wesley Elliott
Sport Pilot-PPC

pipercolt

Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Randolph New York

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection?

I bought an overhauled 582 for my Mk 3. The man that owned it before me took his injection off and ran the engine at 90 to 1 all the time. He said that when they overhauled it at 700 hours it looked perfect. The engine builder recommends running it 100 to 1.

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection?

 	  lcottrell wrote: 	
		  



......SNIP.....

I would appreciate all comments good or bad about this feature, so that he can make up his mind about whether to leave it on the engine or not. Thanks for all input,

Larry 

	




Pre-mix.  

Not a big deal to do it. I have control over what's going into that engine.  I fill 6 gal cans with gas and at 50:1, that's a pint of oil. (Oil goes in the can first, then the gas.  Gets a good mixing that way.) Required simplicity for a simple mind.  A dis-advantage is that it is a little more of a bother if you are fueling at an airport fuel pump.  Have to calculate how much oil you need based on how much fuel you are taking on and then making sure the oil gets mixed in well enough.  



Injection.

Just one more mechanical thing that can fail.  Don't hear of it often, but you only need once.  Based on an incident (I believe at Oshkosh), having the oil tank mounted to the rear of the engine and doing repeated steep climb outs is something that should be avoided.  Oil starvation can cause the two stroke to get a little testy and want to quit working.  Travis may be able to correct or corroborate this.



As Beauford says.... Worth what you paid fer it.

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:54 pm Post subject: Oil injection?

Thanks for your thoughts.Larry

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 2:57 PM, George Alexander <gtalexander(at)att.net (gtalexander(at)att.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net (gtalexander(at)att.net)>

 lcottrell wrote:

 >

 >

 > ......SNIP.....

 > I would appreciate all comments good or bad about this feature, so that he can make up his mind about whether to leave it on the engine or not. Thanks for all input,

 > Larry 

 >

 Pre-mix.

 Not a big deal to do it. I have control over what's going into that engine.  I fill 6 gal cans with gas and at 50:1, that's a pint of oil. (Oil goes in the can first, then the gas.  Gets a good mixing that way.) Required simplicity for a simple mind.  A dis-advantage is that it is a little more of a bother if you are fueling at an airport fuel pump.  Have to calculate how much oil you need based on how much fuel you are taking on and then making sure the oil gets mixed in well enough.

 Injection.

 Just one more mechanical thing that can fail.  Don't hear of it often, but you only need once.  Based on an incident (I believe at Oshkosh), having the oil tank mounted to the rear of the engine and doing repeated steep climb outs is something that should be avoided.  Oil starvation can cause the two stroke to get a little testy and want to quit working.  Travis may be able to correct or corroborate this.

 As Beauford says.... Worth what you paid fer it.

 --------

 George Alexander

 FS II R503  N709FS

 http://www.oh2fly.net

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426956#426956

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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: Oil injection?

I had an oil injection on a snow Mobile go bad. Twice. Had to rebuild twice...  changed to pre mix and never looked back 

Boyd On Jul 19, 2014 3:00 PM, "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net (gtalexander(at)att.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net (gtalexander(at)att.net)>

 lcottrell wrote:

 >

 >

 > ......SNIP.....

 > I would appreciate all comments good or bad about this feature, so that he can make up his mind about whether to leave it on the engine or not. Thanks for all input,

 > Larry 

 >

 Pre-mix.

 Not a big deal to do it. I have control over what's going into that engine.  I fill 6 gal cans with gas and at 50:1, that's a pint of oil. (Oil goes in the can first, then the gas.  Gets a good mixing that way.) Required simplicity for a simple mind.  A dis-advantage is that it is a little more of a bother if you are fueling at an airport fuel pump.  Have to calculate how much oil you need based on how much fuel you are taking on and then making sure the oil gets mixed in well enough.

 Injection.

 Just one more mechanical thing that can fail.  Don't hear of it often, but you only need once.  Based on an incident (I believe at Oshkosh), having the oil tank mounted to the rear of the engine and doing repeated steep climb outs is something that should be avoided.  Oil starvation can cause the two stroke to get a little testy and want to quit working.  Travis may be able to correct or corroborate this.

 As Beauford says.... Worth what you paid fer it.

 --------

 George Alexander

 FS II R503  N709FS

 http://www.oh2fly.net

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426956#426956

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 [b]

russk50(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: Oil injection?

BoydCan you tell us what engine went south with no oil?

Thanx, Russ

do not archive

On Jul 19, 2014, at 8:01 PM, B Young wrote:

[quote]

I had an oil injection on a snow Mobile go bad. Twice. Had to rebuild twice...  changed to pre mix and never looked back

Boyd On Jul 19, 2014 3:00 PM, "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net (gtalexander(at)att.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net (gtalexander(at)att.net)>

 lcottrell wrote:

 >

 >

 > ......SNIP.....

 > I would appreciate all comments good or bad about this feature, so that he can make up his mind about whether to leave it on the engine or not. Thanks for all input,

 > Larry 

 >

 Pre-mix.

 Not a big deal to do it. I have control over what's going into that engine.  I fill 6 gal cans with gas and at 50:1, that's a pint of oil. (Oil goes in the can first, then the gas.  Gets a good mixing that way.) Required simplicity for a simple mind.  A dis-advantage is that it is a little more of a bother if you are fueling at an airport fuel pump.  Have to calculate how much oil you need based on how much fuel you are taking on and then making sure the oil gets mixed in well enough.

 Injection.

 Just one more mechanical thing that can fail.  Don't hear of it often, but you only need once.  Based on an incident (I believe at Oshkosh), having the oil tank mounted to the rear of the engine and doing repeated steep climb outs is something that should be avoided.  Oil starvation can cause the two stroke to get a little testy and want to quit working.  Travis may be able to correct or corroborate this.

 As Beauford says.... Worth what you paid fer it.

 --------

 George Alexander

 FS II R503  N709FS

 http://www.oh2fly.net

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426956#426956

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[b]

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: Oil injection?

It was on a 1985 Yamaha phaser 

Boyd  On Jul 19, 2014 6:10 PM, "kinne russ" <russk50(at)gmail.com (russk50(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] BoydCan you tell us what engine went south with no oil?

Thanx, Russ

do not archive

On Jul 19, 2014, at 8:01 PM, B Young wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

I had an oil injection on a snow Mobile go bad. Twice. Had to rebuild twice...  changed to pre mix and never looked back

Boyd On Jul 19, 2014 3:00 PM, "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net (gtalexander(at)att.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		    --> Kolb-List message posted by: "George Alexander" <gtalexander(at)att.net (gtalexander(at)att.net)>

 lcottrell wrote:

 >

 >

 > ......SNIP.....

 > I would appreciate all comments good or bad about this feature, so that he can make up his mind about whether to leave it on the engine or not. Thanks for all input,

 > Larry 

 >

 Pre-mix.

 Not a big deal to do it. I have control over what's going into that engine.  I fill 6 gal cans with gas and at 50:1, that's a pint of oil. (Oil goes in the can first, then the gas.  Gets a good mixing that way.) Required simplicity for a simple mind.  A dis-advantage is that it is a little more of a bother if you are fueling at an airport fuel pump.  Have to calculate how much oil you need based on how much fuel you are taking on and then making sure the oil gets mixed in well enough.

 Injection.

 Just one more mechanical thing that can fail.  Don't hear of it often, but you only need once.  Based on an incident (I believe at Oshkosh), having the oil tank mounted to the rear of the engine and doing repeated steep climb outs is something that should be avoided.  Oil starvation can cause the two stroke to get a little testy and want to quit working.  Travis may be able to correct or corroborate this.

 As Beauford says.... Worth what you paid fer it.

 --------

 George Alexander

 FS II R503  N709FS

 http://www.oh2fly.net

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426956#426956

 ===========

 " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

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 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

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[b]

johngilpin

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 93
Location: 004

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:22 am Post subject: Oil injection?

A very timely discussion.After a short flight yesterday, I found oil all over the front of the engine.  One of the delivery lines from the oil pump had cracked open at the fitting on the pump.  Sure lucky it wasn't a longer flight.....  New lines on order....

 



JG



  [quote][b]

Thumper

Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 46
Location: Oakland TN.

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:54 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection?

OK now.  For disenting opinion on oil injection.  Think of this scenario, you are on a long climb out, you pull the throttle back and that small moment where you go lean and egt's spike.  With oil injection you still have good oil flowing because your throttle setting is still pretty high, with premix you just went lean on oil too.  Or on an unloaded engine set at say 4500 for a decent but the prop is unloaded so the engine isn't using much fuel, hence not much oil.  The Reason rotax was able to get them ASTM certified was because of the oil injection.  Do your maintenance, check cable is moving the oil pump lever on your preflight, annually check the shaft that drives the pump, maybe replace the pump annually if you want to and you will love your oil injection.  It gets a bad rap from older setups like the remote oil tank on early evinrude/johnson outboards.  Suzuki has always had the oil tank above the pump and probably has never had lube failures?  OR jet ski folks who just never added oil to the tank.  That Mikuni oil pump is well proven.  BUT don't trust the stained oil level mark in the tank, look inside.  And monitor your oil usage to your fuel used and calculate your fuel to oil ratio.  If so I bet you will never have problems.  I love the oil injection, but of course I fly a lot.  But I'm still an old guy from the premix days but I learned.  Thanks for listening, Dennis

_________________
Dennis Long
Oakland TN
2000 Aeroprakt A20 Vista Cruiser, 2016 A22LS Aeroprakt
Previously Kolb Mark IIIC, 94 Firestar, 84 Ultrastar.
1200+hours since 1/1/2009

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: Oil injection?

 	  Quote: 	
		  I flew 785.0 hours on premixed fuel, back in the 80's.  On flights to the NE US with my 447 powered FS.  I carried 12 quarts of Pennzoil for air cooled engines.  This was before Rotax recommended two stroke oil for air cooled engines.  Could not buy it locally.  Made contact with the SE US Pennzoil distributor to work out a plan to drop ship cases of Pennzoil Air Cooled Oil to the Jiffy Lube in Montgomery, AL.  Only had one problem on cross country flights.  Refueled at Norwich, NY.  Dumped in the amount of oil I needed, topped off with 100LL, and took off.  Low power on climb out.  Looked behind me and saw a smoke screen.  Pulled the enricher full open.  That gave me enough power to do a 180 and land.  Big mistake when I refueled.  I forgot to rock the FS back and forth to mix the oil.  All the oil was in the bottom of the tank.  My float bowl was full of oil. In 1992, I originally powered my newly constructed MKIII with a 582.  Used oil injection and loved it.  Saved a lot of oil.  Simplified cross country flying.  Put 225.0 hours on the 582 before I swapped it out of a 912 in 1993.  If I was flying a two stroke, I would fly it with the oil injection. I believe to inject or not is a personal decision.  Really doesn't matter one way or the other. Sorry for the late reply.  First WIFI in a while. john hmkIII 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1

  [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

johngilpin

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 93
Location: 004

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:50 am Post subject: Oil injection?

To clarify, I really like the oil injection as well, but would add another item of maintenance, after my last experience with the broken oil line.  Any such plastic/nylon/rubber lines carrying oil or fuel and exposed to the weather need to be replaced regularly, even if they still look OK. 



JG



  [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:20 am Post subject: Oil injection?

Thanks to all of you for your insights and information.  Like most things, simple is better and as close to foolproof as possible. As with most things however maintenence is the main solution.Larry

 



On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 6:49 AM, JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com (j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   To clarify, I really like the oil injection as well, but would add another item of maintenance, after my last experience with the broken oil line.  Any such plastic/nylon/rubber lines carrying oil or fuel and exposed to the weather need to be replaced regularly, even if they still look OK.  



JG



   	  Quote: 	
		  



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alienwes

Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 64
Location: Roswell, NM

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection?

For every failure of oil injection there is probably a failure of the pilot to remember to add oil when pre-mixing.

_________________
Wesley Elliott
Sport Pilot-PPC

pipercolt

Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Randolph New York

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection?

I have a question. On an engine with oil injection, as you add or retard the throttle aren't you adding or retarding oil in roughly the same ratio from idle to full throttle and back? If you are suppose to run 50 to 1, wont you be at about that setting regardless of throttle position?

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:14 pm Post subject: Oil injection?

Delivery isn't linear, much the same as your carb isn't linear, either (needle jet/ jet needle).  Jim Baker [url=tel:4054265377]405.426.5377[/url]--

pipercolt

Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Randolph New York

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection?

Thanks James. If Rotax recommends running the engine at 50 to 1, at what power setting is that? Is it an average?

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: Oil injection?

First....


www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/portaldata/5/dokus/d02939.pdf


Ya know, in all the years I've worked two strokes with pumps, I can't recall seeing a flow rate chart for one. I would think it would be a known item.....perhaps someone else has seen one. The link above just says to make sure that you check that oil consumption is in the 50:1 to 70:1 range.....might be too late to save an engine by the time that was known. Set up the pump per instructions and you should be OK.


 I've always premixed and since 2000 have been running every two stroke I own at 100:1 with an oil designed for same. Won't mention which one because its irrelevant.....lots of good 100:1 products out there. On my UL I have never changed the plugs or done a de-coke of the top end. No need as the plugs are as tan as a four stroke. That's just my mileage...you may not be comfortable with this methodology


Jim Baker


--

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: Oil injection?

It's just like a chainsaw, or two stroke MX bike, weed whacker, leaf blower, whatever, mix a good oil at the manufacturer suggested ratio and  let her rip.



Dennis "Skid" Rowe

Mk3, Rotax 670, 

Leechburg, PA



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jul 23, 2014, at 8:18 PM, "pipercolt" <bob.pipercolt(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Thanks James. If Rotax recommends running the engine at 50 to 1, at what power setting is that? Is it an average?

 

 

 

 

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