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Bill Reining
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Oakland, California
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 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: NavWorx ADS-B |
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Kelly and All
After reading your comments posted Saturday, I went back to the NavWorx booth and was fortunate to get some quality time with Bill Moffitt. I told him I was concerned that I didn't have a clear picture of his product and it's status, nor did others in the RV-10 community. He was kind enough to bring me up-to-date. Note - I am in no way affiliated with NavWorx - I'm just an interested 182 owner and RV-10 builder.
The NavWorx products are a Universal Access Transceiver (UAT). They send out, and receive in, ADS-B information. It is the "out" requirement that will be mandatory in all aircraft as of January first, 2020. There is another way to meet the "out" requirement - a transponder with extended squitter (ES). NavWorx does not offer such a transponder. Aircraft that fly above 18,000 feet within the US, or that fly internationally, will have to have an ES transponder. This may be a deciding factor for the RV-10, considering it's performance. (It is not so for my lower performance Cessna 182 in California, unless the Canadians and Mexicans really get on the bandwagon.) Bear in mind that if you only install an ES transponder to meet the requirement, it does not receive the free ADS-B "in" traffic and weather information.
NavWorx has two basic models, both of which are TSO'd and have an STC/AML for installation in all aircraft, whether certified, experimental, or LSA. These models are the ADS600-B ($2399) and the ADS600-BG ($3499, drops to $2899 on 4/1/2016). They are identical except for their internal GPS. The -B has a non-compliant GPS internal to it, and can be used today through 1/1/2020. After 1/1/2020, and to meet the mandate, the -BG will be required. The -B can be upgraded to the -BG after April 1, 2016 for $500, though that cost is likely to fall by the time 2020 arrives. Both models are available now.
The fact that the NavWorx products have their own GPS makes installation pretty simple. The transceiver is remotely mounted. There is no control panel. Two new antennas are required: one for the internal GPS, the other for the ADS-B signal. (The antennas are an additional cost: for certified aircraft they cost $499, for experimental and LSA $89.99.)
A clever "TransMon" (looks kinda like a dongle) is strapped to the current mode C transponder's coax cable that runs between the transponder and it's antenna. The TransMon picks up the current code being squawked, the altitude being reported, and whether an IDENT signal is being sent.
The transceiver must be connected to electrical power (9 to 33 volts DC at 0.5A for 14 volts, or .33A for 28 volts.)
The only other connection is to the device to be used to display the incoming ADS-B information (traffic and weather). NavWorx has reverse engineered many of the current, and legacy displays (such as the MX-20 in my 182). NavWorx will display the weather and traffic on the Garmin handhelds, beginning with the GPSMAP-396 and up, including the AERA. It is compatible with Aspen displays. The information will be presented on any of these displays per the original device's design, without any extra hardware. There are some systems which will not work with the NavWorx "in" information (traffic and weather), due to their proprietary design. These include Dynon products and the Garmin 650, 750 and G3X.)
NavWorx also offers, as an accessory, a WiFi module, for $120. The WiFi module will allow the ADS-B "in" information to be displayed on a tablet, such as the iPad (if the app accepts it - ForeFlight may be a problem.) NavWorx will do 2 displays at once (e.g. something on the panel and a tablet.)
For those who may consider both a UAT and an "extended squitter" transponder, the NavWorx can supply the necessary GPS data to the ES transponder.
Bill estimates a shop that has sufficient experience installing ADS-B equipment can install the NavWorx equipment in about 15 man hours. Of course the experimental community can do so themselves.
I realize this message is pretty long-winded, but I hope the information is useful.
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514 (QB wings)
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_________________
Bill (and Jon) Reining
40514 |
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:59 pm Post subject: NavWorx ADS-B |
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Thanks for the summary.
I've had the "B" model unit installed and flying for over a year.
Displaying the ADSB-in weather and traffic on my GRTs and seemingly
doing the ADSB-out. I talked to Bill briefly and was relieved to hear
that my box would be upgradeable when needed.
Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
On 8/7/2014 3:48 PM, Bill Reining wrote:
| Quote: |
Kelly and All
After reading your comments posted Saturday, I went back to the NavWorx booth and was fortunate to get some quality time with Bill Moffitt. I told him I was concerned that I didn't have a clear picture of his product and it's status, nor did others in the RV-10 community. He was kind enough to bring me up-to-date. Note - I am in no way affiliated with NavWorx - I'm just an interested 182 owner and RV-10 builder.
The NavWorx products are a Universal Access Transceiver (UAT). They send out, and receive in, ADS-B information. It is the "out" requirement that will be mandatory in all aircraft as of January first, 2020. There is another way to meet the "out" requirement - a transponder with extended squitter (ES). NavWorx does not offer such a transponder. Aircraft that fly above 18,000 feet within the US, or that fly internationally, will have to have an ES transponder. This may be a deciding factor for the RV-10, considering it's performance. (It is not so for my lower performance Cessna 182 in California, unless the Canadians and Mexicans really get on the bandwagon.) Bear in mind that if you only install an ES transponder to meet the requirement, it does not receive the free ADS-B "in" traffic and weather information.
NavWorx has two basic models, both of which are TSO'd and have an STC/AML for installation in all aircraft, whether certified, experimental, or LSA. These models are the ADS600-B ($2399) and the ADS600-BG ($3499, drops to $2899 on 4/1/2016). They are identical except for their internal GPS. The -B has a non-compliant GPS internal to it, and can be used today through 1/1/2020. After 1/1/2020, and to meet the mandate, the -BG will be required. The -B can be upgraded to the -BG after April 1, 2016 for $500, though that cost is likely to fall by the time 2020 arrives. Both models are available now.
The fact that the NavWorx products have their own GPS makes installation pretty simple. The transceiver is remotely mounted. There is no control panel. Two new antennas are required: one for the internal GPS, the other for the ADS-B signal. (The antennas are an additional cost: for certified aircraft they cost $499, for experimental and LSA $89.99.)
A clever "TransMon" (looks kinda like a dongle) is strapped to the current mode C transponder's coax cable that runs between the transponder and it's antenna. The TransMon picks up the current code being squawked, the altitude being reported, and whether an IDENT signal is being sent.
The transceiver must be connected to electrical power (9 to 33 volts DC at 0.5A for 14 volts, or .33A for 28 volts.)
The only other connection is to the device to be used to display the incoming ADS-B information (traffic and weather). NavWorx has reverse engineered many of the current, and legacy displays (such as the MX-20 in my 182). NavWorx will display the weather and traffic on the Garmin handhelds, beginning with the GPSMAP-396 and up, including the AERA. It is compatible with Aspen displays. The information will be presented on any of these displays per the original device's design, without any extra hardware. There are some systems which will not work with the NavWorx "in" information (traffic and weather), due to their proprietary design. These include Dynon products and the Garmin 650, 750 and G3X.)
NavWorx also offers, as an accessory, a WiFi module, for $120. The WiFi module will allow the ADS-B "in" information to be displayed on a tablet, such as the iPad (if the app accepts it - ForeFlight may be a problem.) NavWorx will do 2 displays at once (e.g. something on the panel and a tablet.)
For those who may consider both a UAT and an "extended squitter" transponder, the NavWorx can supply the necessary GPS data to the ES transponder.
Bill estimates a shop that has sufficient experience installing ADS-B equipment can install the NavWorx equipment in about 15 man hours. Of course the experimental community can do so themselves.
I realize this message is pretty long-winded, but I hope the information is useful.
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514 (QB wings)
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: NavWorx ADS-B |
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Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units
exclusively.
On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
| Quote: |
Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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gengrumpy
Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 131
Location: Tullahoma, TN
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:11 pm Post subject: NavWorx ADS-B |
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Unless we all start banging on them to open up to others!!!!
grumpy
do not archive
On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units exclusively.
On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
>
>
> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:40 pm Post subject: NavWorx ADS-B |
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Seems like? Basically they've always been that way and show no signs of
changing. That's why I advocate openness and buy wingX for in flight.
Admittedly, I buy Foreflight for preflight planning because it's awesome
for that, but for in flight I won't pay Foreflight for pro when wingX
offers a discount for 3 year subscription. That's my biggest problem
with garmin too. If they were into open standards for protocols I'd
have a much higher opinion of the company.
Tim
| Quote: | On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units exclusively.
> On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:47 pm Post subject: NavWorx ADS-B |
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What variety of primer do you use on FF?? Does it work on Garmin stuff
as well?
 )
On 8/7/2014 7:40 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
Seems like? Basically they've always been that way and show no signs
of changing. That's why I advocate openness and buy wingX for in
flight. Admittedly, I buy Foreflight for preflight planning because
it's awesome for that, but for in flight I won't pay Foreflight for
pro when wingX offers a discount for 3 year subscription. That's my
biggest problem with garmin too. If they were into open standards for
protocols I'd have a much higher opinion of the company.
Tim
> On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units
> exclusively.
>
>> On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>>
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject: NavWorx ADS-B |
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 I guess I always use green.....without giving foreflight, wingx,
Jeppesen, and others lots of green, it's much harder to fly.
Tim
On 8/7/2014 9:46 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
What variety of primer do you use on FF?? Does it work on Garmin stuff
as well?
)
On 8/7/2014 7:40 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> Seems like? Basically they've always been that way and show no signs
> of changing. That's why I advocate openness and buy wingX for in
> flight. Admittedly, I buy Foreflight for preflight planning because
> it's awesome for that, but for in flight I won't pay Foreflight for
> pro when wingX offers a discount for 3 year subscription. That's my
> biggest problem with garmin too. If they were into open standards for
> protocols I'd have a much higher opinion of the company.
> Tim
>
>> On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units
>> exclusively.
>>
>>> On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Rv10flyer(at)live.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: NavWorx ADS-B |
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I've managed to fly across the country two times and never spent a dime with the green tools.
I have free FltPlan go and Iflightplanner for iPad , that offers everything I need for inflight, I used airnav FBO for airport fuel info and flyQ for airport info. Granted its three tools to do the job of 1 but for the way I fly it seems to offer far more than I ever had in the military over 20 years ago. I actually needed to think where I was back in those days
Not putting very nice tools like FF and wing X down, just commenting that there are other options that work well for free.
Pascal
| Quote: | On Aug 7, 2014, at 7:58 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:
I guess I always use green.....without giving foreflight, wingx,
Jeppesen, and others lots of green, it's much harder to fly.
Tim
> On 8/7/2014 9:46 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
> What variety of primer do you use on FF?? Does it work on Garmin stuff
> as well?
> )
>> On 8/7/2014 7:40 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>>
>>
>> Seems like? Basically they've always been that way and show no signs
>> of changing. That's why I advocate openness and buy wingX for in
>> flight. Admittedly, I buy Foreflight for preflight planning because
>> it's awesome for that, but for in flight I won't pay Foreflight for
>> pro when wingX offers a discount for 3 year subscription. That's my
>> biggest problem with garmin too. If they were into open standards for
>> protocols I'd have a much higher opinion of the company.
>> Tim
>>
>>> On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units
>>> exclusively.
>>>
>>>> On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:35 am Post subject: Re: NavWorx ADS-B |
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Interesting marketing strategy: telling customers that if they wait the price will drop?
I'm with Tim on trying to avoid companies that force you into one product line (with Foreflight, it's Stratus). Garmin has a very competitive mode S-ES transponder out now, but apparently it only works if you buy a G3X.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: NavWorx ADS-B |
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I think the reasoning for the price is, right now they're planning
to do the GPS modules in a bulk order come next year, so, right
now the production costs are much higher in small batch runs
than if you wait a short time and get one after they do the
large batch.
I'm guessing prices will rise over time, otherwise, because
there's been competition in the market now for a while, so
unless someone drastically undercuts others, there's nothing
that's going to bring much price pressure.
Tim
On 8/8/2014 2:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
| Quote: |
Interesting marketing strategy: telling customers that if they wait the price will drop?
I'm with Tim on trying to avoid companies that force you into one product line (with Foreflight, it's Stratus). Garmin has a very competitive mode S-ES transponder out now, but apparently it only works if you buy a G3X.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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