Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Z-19 Function
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:12 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

I am using Z-19 to wire my electrically dependent IO-360. I am using Robert Paisley's EFII system. This system has 2 ECUs and 2 IGN coils. The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time. It also has 2 fuel pumps. Does the Z-19 system use the Low Voltage Monitor Module to switch on the Engine Battery Bus in the case of a low voltage condition? If I am reading this correctly, I will need to modify the system to have continuous 12V power. What is the best way to do this? I think that I will also need to use another 4-diode bridge rectifier for use with the Coils and extra ECU.
Thanks in advance for the help and tips with the system.

Justin


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:18 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Justin,
You may want to consider this design for automatic "fail-over"/ redundant power for an electrically-dependent engine.
-Jeff

On Saturday, August 16, 2014 1:22 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>

I am using Z-19 to wire my electrically dependent IO-360. I am using Robert Paisley's EFII system. This system has 2 ECUs and 2 IGN coils. The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time. It also has 2 fuel pumps. Does the Z-19 system use the Low Voltage Monitor Module to switch on the Engine Battery Bus in the case of a low voltage condition? If I am reading this correctly, I will need to modify the system to have continuous 12V power. What is the best way to do this? I think that I will also need to use another 4-diode bridge rectifier for use with the Coils and extra ECU.
Thanks in advance for the help and tips with the system.

Justin
http://www.matronics.com/Navigato= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS= &n--> http://ww=======================


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



PowDist01a.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  PowDist01a.pdf
 Filesize:  39.33 KB
 Downloaded:  292 Time(s)

Back to top
jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:05 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

I was unable to view the attachment on the prior posting - perhaps the PDF got corrupted in the upload.

So, I am re-posting this message w/ a new attachment.
Hope it works this time,
-Jeff


On Saturday, August 16, 2014 10:34 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:



Justin,
You may want to consider this design for automatic "fail-over"/ redundant power for an electrically-dependent engine.
-Jeff

On Saturday, August 16, 2014 1:22 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>

I am using Z-19 to wire my electrically dependent IO-360. I am using Robert Paisley's EFII system. This system has 2 ECUs and 2 IGN coils. The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time. It also has 2 fuel pumps. Does the Z-19 system use the Low Voltage Monitor Module to switch on the Engine Battery Bus in the case of a low voltage condition?  If I am reading this correctly, I will need to modify the system to have continuous 12V power. What is the best way to do this? I think that I will also need to use another 4-diode bridge rectifier for use with the Coils and extra ECU.
Thanks in advance for the help and tips with the system.

Justin
http://www.matronics.com/Navigato= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS= &n--> http://ww=======================





- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



PowDist01a.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  PowDist01a.pdf
 Filesize:  39.33 KB
 Downloaded:  272 Time(s)

Back to top
uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:56 am    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Worked for me both times.

Do not archive

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2014, at 08:04, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:

I was unable to view the attachment on the prior posting - perhaps the PDF got corrupted in the upload.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . .

Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power
while the other three do . . . what happens?

Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary
power interruption, what happens?

Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all
engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds,
what happens?

The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all
systems intended for use in unforgiving environments
is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at
every component of the system and asks:

How can this part fail?
If it does fail, how will I become aware of it?
If not immediately noticed or annunciated by warning system, is it pre-flight detectable?
If it does fail, how is probable outcome of the flight affected?
If it is necessary for comfortable continuation of flight, what are my alternatives?

Here's my personal notions that go to the topic
of system reliability

Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created." The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives." The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near got you killed."

Before you march off to craft a never fails power
source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there
WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is
comfortably tolerant of such failures.

Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything
that supports engine operations to be powered at all
times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you
sure that you want to install it on your airplane?




Bob . . . [quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:08 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

At 03:02 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
Quote:
The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered
all the time . . .

Is there a down-loadable installation manual
on this system?

Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:26 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf

There is a Dual ECU addendum at the end of the instructions that deal with the installation of the dual ECUs. Through numerous emails that I have exchanged with Robert, I have learned that there the entire system (both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 amps. I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source. The system requires 5 breakers. 2- 5A breakers for the ECUs, 1- 10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers for the fuel pumps (one each).
The reason for installing the electrically dependent system is for the performance gains and the flexibility of using MOGAS. The system draws very little current, and WHEN the alternator fails (and it will at some point), the pilot will be notified (low voltage and low amperage warnings). At this point the pilot must shed the loads to protect the remaining battery power. The EFII system will run as low as 6 volts. I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved. The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. When and if the primary battery’s voltage gets too low, the pilot simply switches to the other battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE.
The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure.
Any thoughts and tips are much appreciated. I have some experience in 12VDC systems but am by no means an engineer.
Thanks again for the help!
Justin

On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . .

Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power
while the other three do . . . what happens?

Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary
power interruption, what happens?

Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all
engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds,
what happens?

The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all
systems intended for use in unforgiving environments
is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at
every component of the system and asks:

How can this part fail?
If it does fail, how will I become aware of it?
If not immediately noticed or annunciated by warning system, is it pre-flight detectable?
If it does fail, how is probable outcome of the flight affected?
If it is necessary for comfortable continuation of flight, what are my alternatives?

Here's my personal notions that go to the topic
of system reliability

Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created." The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives." The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near got you killed."

Before you march off to craft a never fails power
source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there
WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is
comfortably tolerant of such failures.

Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything
that supports engine operations to be powered at all
times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you
sure that you want to install it on your airplane?




Bob . . .
Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Justin,

... I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source...Without looking a schematic it is difficult to get a clear picture of what you are describing but a single breaker for both coils? Is that not the definition of a single point of failure?
... I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved.
Agree.

... The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. ....

The drawing that I posted yesterday does the isolation you are talking about but it does so automatically without any interruption of current flow and requires no pilot interaction.

The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure.

This wheel has been invented many times over. Between Bob N's Z drawing(s) and the one I posted, you should be able accomplish your goals.
-Jeff


On Sunday, August 17, 2014 8:37 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com> wrote:
Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf
There is a Dual ECU addendum at the end of the instructions that deal with the installation of the dual ECUs. Through numerous emails that I have exchanged with Robert, I have learned that there the entire system (both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 amps. I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source. The system requires 5 breakers. 2- 5A breakers for the ECUs, 1- 10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers for the fuel pumps (one each).

The reason for installing the electrically dependent system is for the performance gains and the flexibility of using MOGAS. The system draws very little current, and WHEN the alternator fails (and it will at some point), the pilot will be notified (low voltage and low amperage warnings). At this point the pilot must shed the loads to protect the remaining battery power. The EFII system will run as low as 6 volts. I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved. The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. When and if the primary battery’s voltage gets too low, the pilot simply switches to the other battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE.

The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure.

Any thoughts and tips are much appreciated. I have some experience in 12VDC systems but am by no means an engineer.

Thanks again for the help!

Justin

On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . . Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power while the other three do . . . what happens? Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary power interruption, what happens? Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds, what happens? The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all systems intended for use in unforgiving environments is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at   every component of the system and asks: How can this part fail? If it does fail, how will I become aware of it? If not immediately noticed or annunciated by warning system, is it pre-flight detectable? If it does fail, how is probable outcome of the flight affected? If it is necessary for comfortable continuation of flight, what are my alternatives? Here's my personal notions that go to the topic of system reliability Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created." The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives." The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near got you killed." Before you march off to craft a never fails power source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is comfortably tolerant of such failures. Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything that supports engine operations to be powered at all times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you sure that you want to install it on your airplane? Bob . . .
Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




Quote:
-->






[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:41 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

At 10:25 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
Quote:
Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf

This seems to cover ignition . . . is there another
manual for the fuel injection?





Bob . . . [quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:51 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Also see the following manual.
http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf
On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

At 03:02 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
Quote:
The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . .

Is there a down-loadable installation manual
on this system?

Bob . . . - The --> http://www.m &n -   &nbs --> http://www.matronics.com/co=================

[b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
ribrdb(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:[quote] At 10:25 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
Quote:
Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf

   This seems to cover ignition . . . is there another
   manual for the fuel injection?





  Bob . . .
Quote:


ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


[b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

sorry… try this one

http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf


On Aug 17, 2014, at 9:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 10:25 PM 8/17/2014, you wrote:
Quote:
Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf

This seems to cover ignition . . . is there another
manual for the fuel injection?





Bob . . .
Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Thanks fit the input Jeff. I appreciate it. I like the way redundancy in the system you drew.
You are correct that a single 10A breaker for both coils is a single point of failure and I don't like it. If a 4-diode rectifier were used with an input from both battery buses, it would solve the issue. Then a single breaker would be powering it them from 2 different power sources.



On Aug 17, 2014, at 20:06, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:
[quote]Justin,

... I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source...Without looking a schematic it is difficult to get a clear picture of what you are describing but a single breaker for both coils? Is that not the definition of a single point of failure?
... I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved.
Agree.

... The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. ....

The drawing that I posted yesterday does the isolation you are talking about but it does so automatically without any interruption of current flow and requires no pilot interaction.

The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure.

This wheel has been invented many times over. Between Bob N's Z drawing(s) and the one I posted, you should be able accomplish your goals.
-Jeff


On Sunday, August 17, 2014 8:37 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:
Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf
There is a Dual ECU addendum at the end of the instructions that deal with the installation of the dual ECUs. Through numerous emails that I have exchanged with Robert, I have learned that there the entire system (both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 amps. I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source. The system requires 5 breakers. 2- 5A breakers for the ECUs, 1- 10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers for the fuel pumps (one each).

The reason for installing the electrically dependent system is for the performance gains and the flexibility of using MOGAS. The system draws very little current, and WHEN the alternator fails (and it will at some point), the pilot will be notified (low voltage and low amperage warnings).  At this point the pilot must shed the loads to protect the remaining battery power. The EFII system will run as low as 6 volts. I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved. The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. When and if the primary battery’s voltage gets too low, the pilot simply switches to the other battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE.

The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure.

Any thoughts and tips are much appreciated. I have some experience in 12VDC systems but am by no means an engineer.

Thanks again for the help!

Justin

On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . . Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power while the other three do . . . what happens? Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary power interruption, what happens? Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds, what happens? The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all systems intended for use in unforgiving environments is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at every component of the system and asks: How can this part fail? If it does fail, how will I become aware of it? If not immediately noticed or annunciated by warning system, is it pre-flight detectable? If it does fail, how is probable outcome of the flight affected? If it is necessary for comfortable continuation of flight, what are my alternatives? Here's my personal notions that go to the topic of system reliability Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created." The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives." The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near got you killed." Before you march off to craft a never fails power source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is comfortably tolerant of such failures. Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything that supports engine operations to be powered at all times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you sure that you want to install it on your airplane? Bob . . .
Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




Quote:
-->

[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
Quote:
[b]

===================================
courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===================================
cs.com
===================================
matronics.com/contribution
===================================

[/b]

[b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:38 am    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

I guess I should have said that 2 single breakers would be powering the coils from 2 different power sources.

On Aug 18, 2014, at 2:19 AM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:
[quote]Thanks fit the input Jeff. I appreciate it. I like the way redundancy in the system you drew.
You are correct that a single 10A breaker for both coils is a single point of failure and I don't like it. If a 4-diode rectifier were used with an input from both battery buses, it would solve the issue. Then a single breaker would be powering it them from 2 different power sources.


On Aug 17, 2014, at 20:06, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:
Quote:
Justin,

... I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source...Without looking a schematic it is difficult to get a clear picture of what you are describing but a single breaker for both coils? Is that not the definition of a single point of failure?
... I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved.
Agree.

... The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. ...

The drawing that I posted yesterday does the isolation you are talking about but it does so automatically without any interruption of current flow and requires no pilot interaction.

The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure.

This wheel has been invented many times over. Between Bob N's Z drawing(s) and the one I posted, you should be able accomplish your goals.
-Jeff


On Sunday, August 17, 2014 8:37 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:
Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf
There is a Dual ECU addendum at the end of the instructions that deal with the installation of the dual ECUs. Through numerous emails that I have exchanged with Robert, I have learned that there the entire system (both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 amps. I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source. The system requires 5 breakers. 2- 5A breakers for the ECUs, 1- 10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers for the fuel pumps (one each).

The reason for installing the electrically dependent system is for the performance gains and the flexibility of using MOGAS. The system draws very little current, and WHEN the alternator fails (and it will at some point), the pilot will be notified (low voltage and low amperage warnings). At this point the pilot must shed the loads to protect the remaining battery power. The EFII system will run as low as 6 volts. I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved. The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. When and if the primary battery’s voltage gets too low, the pilot simply switches to the other battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE.

The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure.

Any thoughts and tips are much appreciated. I have some experience in 12VDC systems but am by no means an engineer.

Thanks again for the help!

Justin

On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . . Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power while the other three do . . . what happens? Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary power interruption, what happens? Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds, what happens? The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all systems intended for use in unforgiving environments is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at every component of the system and asks: How can this part fail? If it does fail, how will I become aware of it? If not immediately noticed or annunciated by warning system, is it pre-flight detectable? If it does fail, how is probable outcome of the flight affected? If it is necessary for comfortable continuation of flight, what are my alternatives? Here's my personal notions that go to the topic of system reliability Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created." The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives." The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near got you killed." Before you march off to craft a never fails power source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is comfortably tolerant of such failures. Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything that supports engine operations to be powered at all times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you sure that you want to install it on your airplane? Bob . . .
Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




Quote:
-->

[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
[url=http://www.matroni======== </font></b></pre></div><br style=] [/url]
Quote:
[b]

==========
courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
==========
cs.com
==========
matronics.com/contribution
==========

[/b]


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


[b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:00 am    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

At 12:53 AM 8/18/2014, you wrote:

Quote:
http://www.flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf

Hmmmm . . . These systems probably perform as advertised . . .
but the supplier has not served their customer well in
terms of system integration data. In particular, their treatment
of electrical systems architecture and failure modes is
sketchy to non-existent. The word 'fail' appears three
times . . . not in the context of a system integrator's
work instruction or pilot's operating manual . . . but of
a marketing brochure.

I went back into the series of Justin's postings . . . the first
one showed up in February of this year. It seems that by the
time he first came to the List, drawings were made, parts bought,
holes drilled and a lot of decisions already under the bridge
were being 'fine tuned'.

I am not pleased to note that this project is probably way
too complex for reasons not well defined. If the supplier
of this system has offered nothing more than the documents
cited, then he is . . . well. Suffice it to say that
if I walked into some airframe OEM attempting to sell this
hardware on no better data . . . I wouldn't get past the
purchasing agents.

Just because our airplanes are relatively unregulated and
'experimental' does not relieve any supplier of a duty
to reduce costs and risk. This is especially true when the product is
being offered to a non-professional marketplace.

I have often opined here on the List that every electrical
system . . . ESPECIALLY one with the potential for complexity
as this one . . . should start with the bus-by-bus load analysis.
This exercise starts the thinking processes that guide hardware
sizing and architecture decisions that go to the elegant (read
frugal) design.

I've been struggling with a task for a client to refine
requirements documents on a system that has already been
built. It DOES function as advertised . . . but its schematic
has the appearance of a bucket full of parts stirred
vigorously with a paint mixer until desired functionality was
achieved.

The problem I'm wrestling with is whether or not I want
to continue to pursue the task for the client. Once the
documentation is completed, do I want to sign the
author's signature line? Doing so would add my own
credential to an activity which (in my never humble
opinion) does not serve the end-user well for cost of
ownership and mitigation of risk.

Justin's project presents a similar conundrum. I'm recalling
a conversation with a builder about 20 years ago who said,
"I shielded all the wires and installed filters here, there,
and a few over there . . . what else do I need?"

I asked, "Gee, do you have a noise problem?"

"Oh no . . . I haven't flown the airplane yet."

Justin has not been well served by his suppliers
and is struggling with issues that should have
been put to bed before he made his decision to
purchase the system.

It's not clear to what advice we can offer that
would markedly refine a system that's already
built.

Justin,

One thing I gleaned from the data package:
With the exception of fuel injectors, the two systems
are entirely redundant. Should one of the systems
become unusable for any reason, including loss of
power, then the other system can be pressed into
service with no significant loss of engine performance.

The manufacturer's citation of breaker sizes tells
us NOTHING about this system's energy needs. You
would do well to approach them with questions
that go to ENERGY that moves through each breaker
and under what conditions.

I apologize for pushing this off on you . . . but
these guys need to understand the problems THEIR
customers are wrestling with. I could write and ask
for the same data . . . but I would not be surprised
if they don't really know the answers. This study
needs to start with a customer . . . and you're
the only one I know.

If inquiring minds seek to be helpful, then
it's something we need to know. If their answers
seem less than confident, suggest that they contact
me . . . or better yet, join the AeroElectric-List.
There is no better opportunity for teaching
responsible consumerism than to carry out our
conversations with the supplier in open forum.


Bob . . . [quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
kenryan



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:11 am    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Justin,

Have you considered using Robert's Bus Manager? It allows for two batteries, isolated for charging. Either or both batteries can be used for starting, and there is great redundancy for power to the essential bus. Also, it will monitor fuel pressure and automatically switch to the auxiliary pump if pressure is lost.


Ken 

On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:
[quote]Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf

There is a Dual ECU addendum at the end of the instructions that deal with the installation of the dual ECUs.  Through numerous emails that I have exchanged with Robert, I have learned that there the entire system (both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 amps.  I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils.  I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source. The system requires 5 breakers.  2- 5A breakers for the ECUs, 1- 10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers for the fuel pumps (one each). 


The reason for installing the electrically dependent system is for the performance gains and the flexibility of using MOGAS.  The system draws very little current, and WHEN the alternator fails (and it will at some point), the pilot will be notified (low voltage and low amperage warnings).  At this point the pilot must shed the loads to protect the remaining battery power.  The EFII system will run as low as 6 volts.  I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved.  The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus.  When and if the primary battery’s voltage gets too low, the pilot simply switches to the other battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE.


The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure.


Any thoughts and tips are much appreciated. I have some experience in 12VDC systems but am by no means an engineer.
Thanks again for the help!
Justin

On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . .

  Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power
  while the other three do . . . what happens?

  Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary
  power interruption, what happens?

  Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all
  engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds,
  what happens?

  The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all
  systems intended for use in unforgiving environments
  is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at
  every component of the system and asks:

How can this part fail?
If it does fail, how will I become aware of it?
If not immediately noticed or annunciated by warning system, is it pre-flight detectable?
If it does fail, how is probable outcome of the flight affected?
If it is necessary for comfortable continuation of flight, what are my alternatives?

  Here's my personal notions that go to the topic
  of system reliability

Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break"   The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created."   The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives."   The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near got you killed."

  Before you march off to craft a never fails power
  source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there
  WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is
  comfortably tolerant of such failures.

  Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything
  that supports engine operations to be powered at all
  times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you
  sure that you want to install it on your airplane?




  Bob . . .
Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

[b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:36 am    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Bob,

I appreciate your help and opinion with this matter. I will approach Robert about this and find out the specifics of the electrical demands of his system. I have heard great things about his customer service and the folks using his system in their running aircraft have nothing but great things to say about it and him. He is a very knowledgable A&P and has deep knowledge of his system.
Thank you again.
Justin

On Aug 18, 2014, at 5:59 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
[quote] At 12:53 AM 8/18/2014, you wrote:

Quote:
http://www.flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf

Hmmmm . . . These systems probably perform as advertised . . .
but the supplier has not served their customer well in
terms of system integration data. In particular, their treatment
of electrical systems architecture and failure modes is
sketchy to non-existent. The word 'fail' appears three
times . . . not in the context of a system integrator's
work instruction or pilot's operating manual . . . but of
a marketing brochure.

I went back into the series of Justin's postings . . . the first
one showed up in February of this year. It seems that by the
time he first came to the List, drawings were made, parts bought,
holes drilled and a lot of decisions already under the bridge
were being 'fine tuned'.

I am not pleased to note that this project is probably way
too complex for reasons not well defined. If the supplier
of this system has offered nothing more than the documents
cited, then he is . . . well. Suffice it to say that
if I walked into some airframe OEM attempting to sell this
hardware on no better data . . . I wouldn't get past the
purchasing agents.

Just because our airplanes are relatively unregulated and
'experimental' does not relieve any supplier of a duty
to reduce costs and risk. This is especially true when the product is
being offered to a non-professional marketplace.

I have often opined here on the List that every electrical
system . . . ESPECIALLY one with the potential for complexity
as this one . . . should start with the bus-by-bus load analysis.
This exercise starts the thinking processes that guide hardware
sizing and architecture decisions that go to the elegant (read
frugal) design.

I've been struggling with a task for a client to refine
requirements documents on a system that has already been
built. It DOES function as advertised . . . but its schematic
has the appearance of a bucket full of parts stirred
vigorously with a paint mixer until desired functionality was
achieved.

The problem I'm wrestling with is whether or not I want
to continue to pursue the task for the client. Once the
documentation is completed, do I want to sign the
author's signature line? Doing so would add my own
credential to an activity which (in my never humble
opinion) does not serve the end-user well for cost of
ownership and mitigation of risk.

Justin's project presents a similar conundrum. I'm recalling
a conversation with a builder about 20 years ago who said,
"I shielded all the wires and installed filters here, there,
and a few over there . . . what else do I need?"

I asked, "Gee, do you have a noise problem?"

"Oh no . . . I haven't flown the airplane yet."

Justin has not been well served by his suppliers
and is struggling with issues that should have
been put to bed before he made his decision to
purchase the system.

It's not clear to what advice we can offer that
would markedly refine a system that's already
built.

Justin,

One thing I gleaned from the data package:
With the exception of fuel injectors, the two systems
are entirely redundant. Should one of the systems
become unusable for any reason, including loss of
power, then the other system can be pressed into
service with no significant loss of engine performance.

The manufacturer's citation of breaker sizes tells
us NOTHING about this system's energy needs. You
would do well to approach them with questions
that go to ENERGY that moves through each breaker
and under what conditions.

I apologize for pushing this off on you . . . but
these guys need to understand the problems THEIR
customers are wrestling with. I could write and ask
for the same data . . . but I would not be surprised
if they don't really know the answers. This study
needs to start with a customer . . . and you're
the only one I know.

If inquiring minds seek to be helpful, then
it's something we need to know. If their answers
seem less than confident, suggest that they contact
me . . . or better yet, join the AeroElectric-List.
There is no better opportunity for teaching
responsible consumerism than to carry out our
conversations with the supplier in open forum.


Bob . . .
Quote:


[b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:42 am    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Ken,

I have considered using it. I am left wondering if his system has the same functions of Bob’s Z-19 diagram, and his other diagrams for electrically dependent engines. If it does (and it seems to) it seems that it would be an added cost for no good reason.
Here is the link to the Bus Manager Installation instructions. http://flyefii.com/bus_manager/Bus_Manager_Installation_Instructions.pdf
Maybe Bob can weigh in on the Bus Manager?


Thanks
Justin

On Aug 18, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Justin,

Have you considered using Robert's Bus Manager? It allows for two batteries, isolated for charging. Either or both batteries can be used for starting, and there is great redundancy for power to the essential bus. Also, it will monitor fuel pressure and automatically switch to the auxiliary pump if pressure is lost.


Ken

On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Here is the link to the downloadable instruction manual. http://flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Ignition_Instruction_sheet_rev9-13.pdf

There is a Dual ECU addendum at the end of the instructions that deal with the installation of the dual ECUs. Through numerous emails that I have exchanged with Robert, I have learned that there the entire system (both ECUs and IGN coils) draws 2.4 amps. I have also learned that a single 10A breaker feeds both coils. I would think the 4-diode rectifier with power from the engine battery bus and the main battery bus would solve the single-point of failure issue with a single power source. The system requires 5 breakers. 2- 5A breakers for the ECUs, 1- 10A breaker for the IGN Coils, and 2- 10A breakers for the fuel pumps (one each).


The reason for installing the electrically dependent system is for the performance gains and the flexibility of using MOGAS. The system draws very little current, and WHEN the alternator fails (and it will at some point), the pilot will be notified (low voltage and low amperage warnings). At this point the pilot must shed the loads to protect the remaining battery power. The EFII system will run as low as 6 volts. I feel that with a dual battery system and a way to isolate the batteries from each other during flight, a higher level of safety is achieved. The pilot would simply isolate the batteries and shut off all items that are drawing a load from that battery bus. When and if the primary battery’s voltage gets too low, the pilot simply switches to the other battery and lands as soon as POSSIBLE.


The challenge is to engineer a reliable and redundant 12V system that will allow for safe and reliable operation regardless of individual component, complete bus, or even power source failure.


Any thoughts and tips are much appreciated. I have some experience in 12VDC systems but am by no means an engineer.
Thanks again for the help!
Justin

On Aug 17, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
The system requires that both ECUs and both IGN coils are powered all the time . . .

Okay, suppose one of these four items doesn't get power
while the other three do . . . what happens?

Suppose half of the system ECU and IGN get a momentary
power interruption, what happens?

Suppose there's complete interruption of power to all
engine support which is 'fixed' in a few seconds,
what happens?

The legacy design philosophy we've applied to all
systems intended for use in unforgiving environments
is the failure mode effects analysis. FMEA looks at
every component of the system and asks:

How can this part fail?
If it does fail, how will I become aware of it?
If not immediately noticed or annunciated by warning system, is it pre-flight detectable?
If it does fail, how is probable outcome of the flight affected?
If it is necessary for comfortable continuation of flight, what are my alternatives?

Here's my personal notions that go to the topic
of system reliability

Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things break" The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when things break, no immediate hazard is created." The third: "Failure tolerant design dictates that items needed for comfortable termination of flight are backed up with Plan-B alternatives." The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing it or want some new operating feature, not because it damned near got you killed."

Before you march off to craft a never fails power
source(s) . . . it seems prudent to ASSUME there
WILL be failures . . . and craft a system that is
comfortably tolerant of such failures.

Your query to the List cited an imperative for everything
that supports engine operations to be powered at all
times . . . if this is strictly true, then are you
sure that you want to install it on your airplane?




Bob . . .
Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

[b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

Justin,
Someone mentioned the Bus Manager product. I am not privy to its design but that same functionality is provided in the system design that I posted, except for the fuel pump management.
-Jeff

On Monday, August 18, 2014 10:56 AM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



Bob,

I appreciate your help and opinion with this matter. I will approach Robert about this and find out the specifics of the electrical demands of his system. I have heard great things about his customer service and the folks using his system in their running aircraft have nothing but great things to say about it and him.  He is a very knowledgable A&P and has deep knowledge of his system.
Thank you again.
Justin 

On Aug 18, 2014, at 5:59 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
[quote] At 12:53 AM 8/18/2014, you wrote:

Quote:
http://www.flyefii.com/customer_projects/EFII_Installation_Manual_rev9-13.pdf

Hmmmm . . . These systems probably perform as advertised . . .
but the supplier has not served their customer well in
terms of system integration data. In particular, their treatment
of electrical systems architecture and failure modes is
sketchy to non-existent. The word 'fail' appears three
times . . . not in the context of a system integrator's
work instruction or pilot's operating manual . . . but of
  a marketing brochure.

I went back into the series of Justin's postings . . . the first
one showed up in February of this year. It seems that by the
time he first came to the List, drawings were made, parts bought,
  holes drilled and a lot of decisions already under the bridge
  were being 'fine tuned'.

I am not pleased to note that this project is probably way
too complex for reasons not well defined. If the supplier
of this system has offered nothing more than the documents
cited, then he is . . . well. Suffice it to say that
if I walked into some airframe OEM attempting to sell this
hardware on no better data . . . I wouldn't get past the
  purchasing agents.

Just because our airplanes are relatively unregulated and
'experimental' does not relieve any supplier of a duty
to reduce costs and risk. This is especially true when the product is
being offered to a non-professional marketplace.

I have often opined here on the List that every electrical
system . . . ESPECIALLY one with the potential for complexity
as this one . . . should start with the bus-by-bus load analysis.
  This exercise starts the thinking processes that guide hardware
sizing and architecture decisions that go to the elegant (read
frugal) design.

I've been struggling with a task for a client to refine
requirements documents on a system that has already been
built. It DOES function as advertised . . . but its schematic
  has the appearance of a bucket full of parts stirred
  vigorously with a paint mixer until desired functionality was
  achieved.

The problem I'm wrestling with is whether or not I want
to continue to pursue the task for the client. Once the
documentation is completed, do I want to sign the
author's signature line? Doing so would add my own
credential to an activity which (in my never humble
opinion) does not serve the end-user well for cost of
ownership and mitigation of risk.

  Justin's project presents a similar conundrum. I'm recalling
a conversation with a builder about 20 years ago who said,
"I shielded all the wires and installed filters here, there,
and a few over there . . . what else do I need?"

I asked, "Gee, do you have a noise problem?"

"Oh no . . . I haven't flown the airplane yet."

Justin has not been well served by his suppliers
and is struggling with issues that should have
been put to bed before he made his decision to
purchase the system.

It's not clear to what advice we can offer that
would markedly refine a system that's already
built.

Justin,

  One thing I gleaned from the data package:
With the exception of fuel injectors, the two systems
are entirely redundant. Should one of the systems
become unusable for any reason, including loss of
power, then the other system can be pressed into
service with no significant loss of engine performance.

The manufacturer's citation of breaker sizes tells
us NOTHING about this system's energy needs. You
would do well to approach them with questions
that go to ENERGY that moves through each breaker
and under what conditions.

  I apologize for pushing this off on you . . . but
these guys need to understand the problems THEIR
customers are wrestling with. I could write and ask
for the same data . . . but I would not be surprised
if they don't really know the answers. This study
needs to start with a customer . . . and you're
the only one I know.

If inquiring minds seek to be helpful, then
  it's something we need to know. If their answers
seem less than confident, suggest that they contact
me . . . or better yet, join the AeroElectric-List.
There is no better opportunity for teaching
responsible consumerism than to carry out our
conversations with the supplier in open forum.

Bob . . .
Quote:



[/b][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:26 pm    Post subject: Z-19 Function Reply with quote

At 01:49 PM 8/18/2014, you wrote:
Quote:
Justin,

Someone mentioned the Bus Manager product. I am not privy to its
design but that same functionality is provided in the system design
that I posted, except for the fuel pump management.

-Jeff

This might well be marching off in the wrong direction.
Given what I understand about the engine accessories
now, it's not clear that this installation's optimum
configuration would not be well served with Z-13/8 or
at worst, Z-12 with a 20A s/b alternator and one
battery.

Z-19 was tailored to engines that could not conveniently
drive two alternators.

Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group