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clouddog22(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:57 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] Heres one for you Air Heads out there 
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:39 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Hi Greg,
Thanks for your input. In fact this is my 2nd CJ and I'm aware of how to use the flaps. There is no problem flying with the front flap handle in the up position and I did so for the 7 years I owned my first airplane with no issues whatsoever, but if one has an actuator leak then putting it in neutral masks the problem somewhat.
The OTHER issue is that when I lowered the flaps using the REAR handle, a very loud leak was evident in the FRONT cockpit, this is very bad, one should be able to lower the flaps from the rear without depleting the air system. And as I stated in my first email, the leak continued regardless of the FRONT cockpit flap handle position.
To me this indicates a problem with the diverter valves, and I was waiting for some confirmation form the experts in the group.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Greg Wrobel <clouddog22(at)gmail.com (clouddog22(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:48 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
[quote]
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:58 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting
ErnieÂ
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:20 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
[quote] Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:53 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!Â
As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
| Quote: | Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting
ErnieÂ
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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hess737(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:23 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Guys,
Even Boeing airliners either have a neutral position or depressurize the actuators after gear or flaps are raised to take stress off the system seals, gaskets, etc. Some of them actually free fall the gear and only pressurize the side and drag brace over center down locks. One of our own RPA guys actually went straight from neutral to down with his gear after a low altitude midair a few years ago, thereby ensuring a quick configuration response. So, multiple benefits to the neutral position.
Richard Hess
President
International Jets, Inc.
Cell 404-964-4885
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:10 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Years ago I had a chance to look at a Boeing manual for the B707 (about 1" thick) and to compare it to the PAA's pilot's manuals (two books 1.5" thick each) and the difference between PAA's and UAL emergency 747 check-list was light years (PAA better BTW) and both 'approved' by the FAA. Lets just say there is more than 3 ways to skin a cat. My CJ pneumatic system is different than any other I've seen and there are 2 different systems in the manual. My airplane has no up locks for the gear. It came that way. I have to fly with the gear handle up all the time, or the air pressure will slowly bleed down and my gear will fall down. That OK really. I've now owned my CJ 20 years, and other than normal wear on seals, I've had no major problems.
As too flaps, the system is very simple. If there is air coming from the flap handle, with the handle up, and system pressure will not return to normal (50 atmos), 99% of the time the leak is in the flap actuator seals. With the handle in the middle the flap actuator is isolated. This is the normal position for the flap handle in all phases of flight Expect prior to landing and immediately after landing. There are 2 reasons for the bungee cord on the flaps, as I see it. One to return the flaps to the up position after a system leak down. And 2, as a 'shock absorber' of sorts when the flap handle goes from neutral to down, with zero pressure in the actuator.
For a number of months I procrastinated changing the seals in my flap actuator because it was leaking though the front flap handle. Simply keeping the handle in the neutral position stopped the leaking. Where problem manifested itself and made a difference, was AFTER landing when I would bring the flap up and leave the handle up. I quickly noticed that my pressure was not returning to normal and with brake applications, was getting lower. As soon as I returned the flap handle to neutral, the leak stopped and pressure return to normal. NOTE; At one point for some reason my system regulator started allowing the pressure to build to 58-60 atoms. (I don't know why. I just clean & adjusted it) however I was able to use that leak to bring down the pressure in the system to normal. It got me home.
I know the Chinese manual says put gear & flaps handles in neutral after selecting up, but I do not see where that makes a great deal of difference. Some say it "takes pressure off the system" and that is not entirely true. The "system" is still under pressure at least up to the gear and flap handles. The regulator is still adjusting to maintain 50 atoms to the system which includes the emergency air tank (on the CJ) and main tank. Constant pressure on the seals really can't "wear" them because there is no "movement" which is (and age) what really cause seal degradation. Thus the importance of good lubrication.
As for fixing the flap diverter valves and the flap actuator would take just a couple of hours total. Even if there is nothing with the diverter valves, you can at least replace the steel springs with stainless steel springs from ACE.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/22/2014 10:14:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, erniel29(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front flap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an isolation.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
| Quote: | Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:34 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Just in case any one was interested, it was the diverter valves.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front flap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an isolation.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!Â
As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
| Quote: | Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting
ErnieÂ
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:40 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Actually Ernie, the front gear selector and the two flap selectors are 100% interchangeable. Only the rear gear selector is different. This is true in both the CJ and the Yak 52 and in fact all of these components are interchangeable between the airplanes.
Actually the front gear selector neutral position is to permit the rear gear selector to have control. Although it does help in isolating some air leaks, it was not designed for that purpose. The neutral position on the front flap handle is to give full control of the flaps to the rear flap selector by preventing any air passing through the lines from the rear selector to the front selector UP or DOWN position. .
The best way to explain it is with the rear gear selector in neutral, all air passes through the in and out ports of the rear gear selector to the front gear selector so the front seat has full control. . When one wants to operate the gear from the rear cockpit, putting the front gear selector in neutral blocks the air from going to the UP or DOWN side of the front gear selector.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 8:51 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
[quote] Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
| Quote: | Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:42 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Yes, that is true. But that is not the primary reason for the neutral position which I explained in my previous email to this post.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 9:13 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
[quote] Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front flap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an isolation.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
| Quote: | Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Sorry Dennis, I'm having issues with Gmail today and things are getting out of sync.
To your last post. Having to put the front handle in Neutral so the the Rear can take control doesn't seem to make any sense. The whole point of an instructor in the back seat is to over-ride the front seaters actions. Expecting the front seater to put valves in neutral defeats the purpose. Actuating the Rear gear or flap controls should engage the system, regardless of front seat position.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 2:41 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] Yes, that is true. But that is not the primary reason for the neutral position which I explained in my previous email to this post.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 9:13 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
| Quote: | Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front flap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an isolation.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!Â
As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
| Quote: | Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting
ErnieÂ
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:13 pm Post subject: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
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Glad you got it fixed. This horse was pulverized.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2014, at 1:33 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Just in case any one was interested, it was the diverter valves.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front flap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an isolation.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
| Quote: | Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Heres one for you Air Heads out there
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
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