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Facet Pump

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woody

Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 22
Location: Gulf Coast

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: Facet Pump

I was wondering if anyone has had any trouble or heard of anyone having trouble with a Facet "cube" pump. I put one on my Firestar last winter to use in place of the squeeze bulb that has such a bad reputation. Mine had probably a hour of use as all I do is prime the engine with it. In any case, last week I was taxing down our local grass strip when the engine, (rotax 503) started running rough & then died. I turned on the Facet & after a couple of minutes of cranking, the engine sputtered to life. Well I revved the engine & headed for the hanger but didn't quite make if before the engine went away again. I got out & manhandled it through the 6" of bahiagrass & put it indoors, out of the scorching sunshine. While running back to the hanger with the engine running poorly, I noticed the EIS was reading the #1 cyl. had an EGT of 269 & the #2 was 760. I wondered what could take out the #1 cyl. on both mags at once. When I pulled the float bowl on #1, I got my answer, NO FUEL. I started taking things apart & found no obstruction. When I tried the Facet into a container I found that I had what looked to be about 1 gal. a day flow rate. Scratching my head, I removed it & headed for the barn where I could find some serious tools. When I took the Facet apart, I found that the check-valve, (a mushroom shaped piece of what looks like nylon) was firmly stuck into a 45 deg. bevel, cast into the housing. What should have been a simple flutter valve was stuck tight by a poorly finished casting. The steel fitting was very rough on this bevel & I'm surprised that it sealed at all. I guess this explains why the fuel would always drain back into the tank in a very short time.

 After a little polishing with some 320 grit on a dowel rod in my drill, the surface is now very smooth & I highly doubt that it will stick again. If it does, I hope that I am taxiing out when it does.

 I queried google, but could find no reports of this happening to anyone else. Out of thousands of these little pumps out there, I may have bought the only Lemon that they ever made, but I doubt that too.

 I put everything back together, but when I tried to start the engine I found that all the cranking had taken a toll on my battery. The new battery is here but I haven't had the time to put it to work.

 I hope that this is the end to this story...........

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:42 am Post subject: Facet Pump

I have had 2 facet pumps leak air into the line ahead of the engine driven pump. I'm still using one,but I no longer trust them completely. Only noticed this because the fuel line was clear in the first case and the bubbles clearly seen. The second case, a 912 mk3 with a NEW engine pump and a facet in the belly under the tanks, total starvation and seemed off field landing but the pilot did not activate the facet before landing which clouds the issue of cause, but it was the 2nd fuel starvation event both with fuel levels below half tank and it seemed suspicious. 

Sent from my iPhone 



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Aug 23, 2014, at 10:18 PM, "woody" <n3022.176(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I was wondering if anyone has had any trouble or heard of anyone having trouble with a Facet "cube" pump. I put one on my Firestar last winter to use in place of the squeeze bulb that has such a bad reputation. Mine had probably a hour of use as all I do is prime the engine with it. In any case, last week I was taxing down our local grass strip when the engine, (rotax 503) started running rough & then died. I turned on the Facet & after a couple of minutes of cranking, the engine sputtered to life. Well I revved the engine & headed for the hanger but didn't quite make if before the engine went away again. I got out & manhandled it through the 6" of bahiagrass & put it indoors, out of the scorching sunshine. While running back to the hanger with the engine running poorly, I noticed the EIS was reading the #1 cyl. had an EGT of 269 & the #2 was 760. I wondered what could take out the #1 cyl. on both mags at once. When I pulled the float bowl on #1, I got my answer, NO FUEL. I !

 started taking things apart & found no obstruction. When I tried the Facet into a container I found that I had what looked to be about 1 gal. a day flow rate. Scratching my head, I removed it & headed for the barn where I could find some serious tools. When I took the Facet apart, I found that the check-valve, (a mushroom shaped piece of what looks like nylon) was firmly stuck into a 45 deg. bevel, cast into the housing. What should have been a simple flutter valve was stuck tight by a poorly finished casting. The steel fitting was very rough on this bevel & I'm surprised that it sealed at all. I guess this explains why the fuel would always drain back into the tank in a very short time.

 After a little polishing with some 320 grit on a dowel rod in my drill, the surface is now very smooth & I highly doubt that it will stick again. If it does, I hope that I am taxiing out when it does.

 I queried google, but could find no reports of this happening to anyone else. Out of thousands of these little pumps out there, I may have bought the only Lemon that they ever made, but I doubt that too.

 I put everything back together, but when I tried to start the engine I found that all the cranking had taken a toll on my battery. The new battery is here but I haven't had the time to put it to work.

 I hope that this is the end to this story...........

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:35 am Post subject: Facet Pump

Kolbers:



Been using Facet electric fuel pumps for 30+ years on airplanes, my three

Kolbs.  Never had a problem.



My Facet is located beneath a 25.0 gal aluminum fuel tank.  It has no

problem pushing fuel to both carbs on the 912 or the 582 I originally had on

my MKIII.  I do not know if I have air bubbles in the line or not.  I use

Gates premium neoprene fuel line.



I always use my Facet as a boost/back up pump on takeoff and landings, and

when I am flying low level.  Many flights I leave the pump on for the entire

flight.



I believe the more you use one the better it operates.  Facets pump fuel

full time for many small pickups, or at least before fuel injection came

along.



Any time a component is changed on the engine, the engine should be tied

down and run on the ground to simulate in flight operation, especially full

throttle.  Make sure you run it full throttle for as long as you would

normally climb out on takeoff.



Air bubbles in the fuel line can drive an UL pilot crazy.  I believe

gasoline has the capability to suspend air, this air is pulled from the fuel

when placed in a vacuum.  There can also be air leaks because of the type

clamping system some of us use.  I'd be more concerned with a fuel leak from

these connections than an air leak inside.  The Bing carbs are designed to

separate air from the fuel in the float bowl.



Again, the above are my own ideas and not necessarily indorsed by ROTAX or

Kolb or anyone else.  



Heading for Gantt IAP to change out the radiator hoses, flush the cooling

system, and fill the 912 up with some new long life antifreeze.



Finished up my entrance doors yesterday with new glass.  Will be nice flying

long days with nice clean, clear Lexan.  My photos should be clearer also.



Will be departing for the Rock Housed near Burns Junction, Oregon, two weeks

from today.  Been doing a wind and weather dance for days.  Looking forward

to getting back into the Rockies and the desert.  Been two years since I

have flown my MKIII out there.  The hard part is flying two days over pine

trees and flat lands.  About half way across NM, near Vaughn, I should start

seeing the tops of the Rockies on the east side of Albuquerque.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama




I have had 2 facet pumps leak air into the line ahead of the engine driven

pump. I'm still using one,but I no longer trust them completely. Only

noticed this because the fuel line was clear in the first case and the

bubbles clearly seen. The second case, a 912 mk3 with a NEW engine pump and

a facet in the belly under the tanks, total starvation and seemed off field

landing but the pilot did not activate the facet before landing which clouds

the issue of cause, but it was the 2nd fuel starvation event both with fuel

levels below half tank and it seemed suspicious.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: Facet Pump

Woody --



Many years ago I had a RAN S12-XL with a 503 and used a facet pump.  I had it for several months without incident, but then had an engine out on take off. Luckily, my training kicked in and I was able to land straight-ahead without a scratch to me or the plane.  After I coasted to a stop, the engine started right back up!  

 



Long story short, like yours the check-valve had malfunctioned and could not open fully, so fuel at WOT was constrained.  I replaced the pump with another Facet, and never had a problem after that.

 



  -- Robert



On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 9:18 PM, woody <n3022.176(at)gmail.com (n3022.176(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" <n3022.176(at)gmail.com (n3022.176(at)gmail.com)>

  

 I was wondering if anyone has had any trouble or heard of anyone having trouble with a Facet "cube" pump. I put one on my Firestar last winter to use in place of the squeeze bulb that has such a bad reputation. Mine had probably a hour of use as all I do is prime the engine with it. In any case, last week I was taxing down our local grass strip when the engine, (rotax 503) started running rough & then died. I turned on the Facet & after a couple of minutes of cranking, the engine sputtered to life. Well I revved the engine & headed for the hanger but didn't quite make if before the engine went away again. I got out & manhandled it through the 6" of bahiagrass & put it indoors, out of the scorching sunshine. While running back to the hanger with the engine running poorly, I noticed the EIS was reading the #1 cyl. had an EGT of 269 & the #2 was 760. I wondered what could take out the #1 cyl. on both mags at once. When I pulled the float bowl on #1, I got my answer, NO FUEL. I !

   started taking things apart & found no obstruction. When I tried the Facet into a container I found that I had what looked to be about 1 gal. a day flow rate. Scratching my head, I removed it & headed for the barn where I could find some serious tools. When I took the Facet apart, I found that the check-valve, (a mushroom shaped piece of what looks like nylon) was firmly stuck into a 45 deg. bevel, cast into the housing. What should have been a simple flutter valve was stuck tight by a poorly finished casting. The steel fitting was very rough on this bevel & I'm surprised that it sealed at all. I guess this explains why the fuel would always drain back into the tank in a very short time.

   After a little polishing with some 320 grit on a dowel rod in my drill, the surface is now very smooth & I highly doubt that it will stick again. If it does, I hope that I am taxiing out when it does.

  I queried google, but could find no reports of this happening to anyone else. Out of thousands of these little pumps out there, I may have bought the only Lemon that they ever made, but I doubt that too.

  I put everything back together, but when I tried to start the engine I found that all the cranking had taken a toll on my battery. The new battery is here but I haven't had the time to put it to work.

  I hope that this is the end to this story...........

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429196#429196

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:59 pm Post subject: Facet Pump

I guess I am puzzled,, if the faucet pump Is not working. What is happening to the engine driven pump?  Are they failing at the same time? On Aug 24, 2014 8:52 PM, "Robert Laird" <rlaird(at)cavediver.com (rlaird(at)cavediver.com)> wrote:[quote] Woody --



Many years ago I had a RAN S12-XL with a 503 and used a facet pump.  I had it for several months without incident, but then had an engine out on take off. Luckily, my training kicked in and I was able to land straight-ahead without a scratch to me or the plane.  After I coasted to a stop, the engine started right back up!  

  



Long story short, like yours the check-valve had malfunctioned and could not open fully, so fuel at WOT was constrained.  I replaced the pump with another Facet, and never had a problem after that.

  



  -- Robert



On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 9:18 PM, woody <n3022.176(at)gmail.com (n3022.176(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" <n3022.176(at)gmail.com (n3022.176(at)gmail.com)>

   

 I was wondering if anyone has had any trouble or heard of anyone having trouble with a Facet "cube" pump. I put one on my Firestar last winter to use in place of the squeeze bulb that has such a bad reputation. Mine had probably a hour of use as all I do is prime the engine with it. In any case, last week I was taxing down our local grass strip when the engine, (rotax 503) started running rough & then died. I turned on the Facet & after a couple of minutes of cranking, the engine sputtered to life. Well I revved the engine & headed for the hanger but didn't quite make if before the engine went away again. I got out & manhandled it through the 6" of bahiagrass & put it indoors, out of the scorching sunshine. While running back to the hanger with the engine running poorly, I noticed the EIS was reading the #1 cyl. had an EGT of 269 & the #2 was 760. I wondered what could take out the #1 cyl. on both mags at once. When I pulled the float bowl on #1, I got my answer, NO FUEL. I !

    started taking things apart & found no obstruction. When I tried the Facet into a container I found that I had what looked to be about 1 gal. a day flow rate. Scratching my head, I removed it & headed for the barn where I could find some serious tools. When I took the Facet apart, I found that the check-valve, (a mushroom shaped piece of what looks like nylon) was firmly stuck into a 45 deg. bevel, cast into the housing. What should have been a simple flutter valve was stuck tight by a poorly finished casting. The steel fitting was very rough on this bevel & I'm surprised that it sealed at all. I guess this explains why the fuel would always drain back into the tank in a very short time.

    After a little polishing with some 320 grit on a dowel rod in my drill, the surface is now very smooth & I highly doubt that it will stick again. If it does, I hope that I am taxiing out when it does.

  I queried google, but could find no reports of this happening to anyone else. Out of thousands of these little pumps out there, I may have bought the only Lemon that they ever made, but I doubt that too.

  I put everything back together, but when I tried to start the engine I found that all the cranking had taken a toll on my battery. The new battery is here but I haven't had the time to put it to work.

  I hope that this is the end to this story...........

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429196#429196

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:26 pm Post subject: Facet Pump

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:58 PM, B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I guess I am puzzled,, if the faucet pump Is not working. What is happening to the engine driven pump?  Are they failing at the same time? 	
 



If plumbed in series, a constraining check-valve will also stop fuel from the mechanical pump.



  [quote][b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:19 am Post subject: Facet Pump

A cautionary note: Facet makes *many* different 'cube pumps'. Various pressures,  some with no check valve at all, some with check valves, some with check valves plus 'anti-siphon' valves that block flow if the pump isn't running, etc etc. It pays to know you've ordered the correct valve. The one that Van's Aircraft sells works fine as an in-series boost pump. Here's a listing of Facet cube pumps: 



http://www.facet-purolator.com/cube-fuel-pumps.php



Charlie



 On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Robert Laird <rlaird(at)cavediver.com (rlaird(at)cavediver.com)> wrote:

[quote] 

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:58 PM, B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  I guess I am puzzled,, if the faucet pump Is not working. What is happening to the engine driven pump?  Are they failing at the same time? 	
  



If plumbed in series, a constraining check-valve will also stop fuel from the mechanical pump.



   	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

Dennis Kirby

Joined: 05 Dec 2013
Posts: 35
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:23 am Post subject: Facet Pump

"woody" wrote:  << I was wondering if anyone has had any trouble or heard of anyone having trouble with a Facet "cube" pump. ... Out of thousands of these little pumps out there, I may have bought the only Lemon that they ever made, >>

Woody, Kolbers -



I've never heard of this happening with a Facet before.  



I have the same Facet electric fuel pump in my Mark-3, which has been in operation for 12 years, and I've never had a problem with it.  I run it continuously, for the entire time my engine is running.  With a fuel delivery pressure of only about 6 psi max, I am not worried about flooding my carbs.  And with a mean-time-between-failure rate in the tens of thousands of hours, I'm not worried about wearing it out.



About a year ago, however, I did hear a story of a Facet pump that did not work - right out of the box.  The guy returned it to Aircraft Spruce for a replacement which works fine.  Maybe Facet has suffered a recent decline in quality control, and yours and his were from the same batch?



Dennis Kirby

Mark-3, 912ul

Sandia Park, NM

woody

Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 22
Location: Gulf Coast

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Facet Pump

The pumps are connected in series so when the Facet failed, the vacuum pump stopped pumping as well. When I took it apart, the check valve was stuck tight enough that I had to use needle nose pliers to pull it out of the factory bevel in the housing.

 I still haven't had the plane running. After I fixed the fuel pump, the battery died on me. It turned over 3 turns & croaked. The new battery is in the plane but I forgot to take a 7mm wrench to tighten the leads to the battery.

 Maybe tomorrow..................

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: Facet Pump

Woody, If you decide to change out the Facet, get the 40104 model number. It is the right pressure for Bing carbs and doesn't have a check valve.



Rick Girard

do not archive

 

On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 3:32 PM, woody <n3022.176(at)gmail.com (n3022.176(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "woody" <n3022.176(at)gmail.com (n3022.176(at)gmail.com)>

  

 The pumps are connected in series so when the Facet failed, the vacuum pump stopped pumping as well. When I took it apart, the check valve was stuck tight enough that I had to use needle nose pliers to pull it out of the factory bevel in the housing.

   I still haven't had the plane running. After I fixed the fuel pump, the battery died on me. It turned over 3 turns & croaked. The new battery is in the plane but I forgot to take a 7mm wrench to tighten the leads to the battery.

   Maybe tomorrow..................

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429492#429492

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx

 

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