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In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror
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graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Departing Bembridge and over sea I couldnt work out why so much air was coming up the throttle hole and fuel pump hatch, thought some baffle may have moved. Then after a few minutes, to my horror, noticed the rear pin on the passenger door was located outside the plane rather than in the socket. First time but a classic problem. Slowed right down to 70kts , thought about landing then decided to get my wife to close it properly. I was very glad of the plastic hook at the rear and the leaver protector plate at the front. She held the front plate and moved the leaver up, I held the stick and rear hook and all went fine.

Couldn't have done it without the plastic dressing gown hook stuck and screwed in place at the rear.

Moral of the story (apart from checking before departure) 1. lots of air coming in means something open at the rear. 2, if you are building fit a means of pulling the door back in.



BTW does anyone have a rotax vacuum pump sitting idle?

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:05 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Hi Graham,

I do have a vac pump available. Pleas call 01494 881431 to discuss if you are interested.

Pete

From: graeme bird

Sent: 28/09/2014 18:36

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Europa-List: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror



--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>



Departing Bembridge and over sea I couldnt work out why so much air was coming up the throttle hole and fuel pump hatch, thought some baffle may have moved. Then after a few minutes, to my horror, noticed the rear pin on the passenger door was located outside the plane rather than in the socket. First time but a classic problem. Slowed right down to 70kts , thought about landing then decided to get my wife to close it properly. I was very glad of the plastic hook at the rear and the leaver protector plate at the front. She held the front plate and moved the leaver up, I held the stick and rear hook and all went fine.

Couldn't have done it without the plastic dressing gown hook stuck and screwed in place at the rear.

Moral of the story (apart from checking before departure) 1. lots of air coming in means something open at the rear. 2, if you are building fit a means of pulling the door back in.



BTW does anyone have a rotax vacuum pump sitting idle?



--------

Graeme Bird

G-UMPY

Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W

Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono 

g(at)gdbmk.co.uk





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.co         - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -  [quote][b]

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:08 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

From: pjeffers

Sent: 29/09/2014 09:01

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Hi Graham,

I do have a vac pump available. Pleas call 01494 881431 to discuss if you are interested.

Pete

From: graeme bird

Sent: 28/09/2014 18:36

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Europa-List: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>

Departing Bembridge and over sea I couldnt work out why so much air was coming up the throttle hole and fuel pump hatch, thought some baffle may have moved. Then after a few minutes, to my horror, noticed the rear pin on the passenger door was located outside the plane rather than in the socket. First time but a classic problem. Slowed right down to 70kts , thought about landing then decided to get my wife to close it properly. I was very glad of the plastic hook at the rear and the leaver protector plate at the front. She held the front plate and moved the leaver up, I held the stick and rear hook and all went fine.

Couldn't have done it without the plastic dressing gown hook stuck and screwed in place at the rear.

Moral of the story (apart from checking before departure) 1. lots of air coming in means something open at the rear. 2, if you are building fit a means of pulling the door back in.

BTW does anyone have a rotax vacuum pump sitting idle?

--------

Graeme Bird

G-UMPY

Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W

Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono 

g(at)gdbmk.co.uk

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.co         - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -  [quote][b]

g-fizy

Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 46
Location: uk

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Not door again ! we need a mod before some one is killed

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:08 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Jim ...... so everyone has to jump through hoops because someone else hasn't

done adequate pre-flight checks?

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:24 am Post subject: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Exactly the same happened to me three years ago. I also noticed the air coming in through the throttle slot. I also fortunately managed with the help of the passenger to close the door. I also posted my mishap on the list and Barry Tennant was so kind to have a look at my then deformed door (contacted the upper frame) and fix the problem with a rasp 



Good thing is, that I never forgot this item prior take off once again 



Roland

PH-ZTI

XS Trigear 914

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:24 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

I had it... twice! First time the rear pin was badly engaged, second time

the passenger shocked the handle with his elbow. Both time the door departed

from the plane. The (only) good thing was to demonstrate that the ship still

flies very well, in spite of a mark visible on the rudder.



Max  Cointe

mcointe(at)free.fr

F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 520 hours



F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S 

Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures

-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Roland

Envoyé : mercredi 1 octobre 2014 13:25

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror






Exactly the same happened to me three years ago. I also notices the air

coming in through the throttle slot. I also fortunately managed with the

help of the passenger to close the door. I also posted my mishap on the list

and Barry Tennant was so kind to have a look at my then deformed door

(contacted the upper frame) and fix the problem with a rasp 



Good thing is, that I never forgot this item prior take off once again 



Roland

PH-ZTI

XS Trigear 914





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431332#431332

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

g-fizy

Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 46
Location: uk

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:57 am Post subject: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

 	  ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net wrote: 	
		  Jim ...... so everyone has to jump through hoops because someone else hasn't

done adequate pre-flight checks?

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



-- 	




yes  bob safety first ,thats a lot of doors that have come off ,after we sadly lost two people  didn't we all have to do a mod to the elevator

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Jim, I accept the issue is a serious matter and I am quite prepared to

champion vital safety matters but you cannot legislate for pilot's

inefficient pre-flight checks and inspections, unless you want a safety

device of a safety device, of a safety device and our aircraft will not get

off the ground. These chaps must face the facts that it is their

shortcomings on these matters which put them and their passengers at risk.

The incident over the elevator was a proven short coming of build and

design, as was the assessed need to attend to the rear wing lift pins at the

same time since there was a perceived issue over build integrity which

couldn't be assessed without breaking into the wings. 

The matter of the door is designed adequately and functions quite adequately

until the human element of pre-flight checks and regular hinge inspection

raises their heads.

Sorry, it is my humble opinion that  I will not give on this issue, I do not

want have to install knee jerk solutions for everyone to comply with over

such things that still come back to pilot conduct. 

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG. 



--

cakeykev(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:29 pm Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Bob



I agree, the person who taught me the differences of flying the Europa really drummed it into me of giving the back of the door on both sides a good hard push not just to look at it.



I have had cause to thank him on a number of occasions.



You don't need lights etc just a pre flight check.



Kevin



[quote] On 1 Oct 2014, at 22:07, Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Jim, I accept the issue is a serious matter and I am quite prepared to

 champion vital safety matters but you cannot legislate for pilot's

 inefficient pre-flight checks and inspections, unless you want a safety

 device of a safety device, of a safety device and our aircraft will not get

 off the ground. These chaps must face the facts that it is their

 shortcomings on these matters which put them and their passengers at risk.

 The incident over the elevator was a proven short coming of build and

 design, as was the assessed need to attend to the rear wing lift pins at the

 same time since there was a perceived issue over build integrity which

 couldn't be assessed without breaking into the wings. 

 The matter of the door is designed adequately and functions quite adequately

 until the human element of pre-flight checks and regular hinge inspection

 raises their heads.

 Sorry, it is my humble opinion that  I will not give on this issue, I do not

 want have to install knee jerk solutions for everyone to comply with over

 such things that still come back to pilot conduct. 

 Regards

 Bob Harrison G-PTAG. 

 

 --

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Hi All.

I agree with Bob on this one, its a question of using the check list and a visual check that the bolts are engaged, it has happened may times and can only be put down to poor airman ship, but we all make mistake. 

Many people taxy on a hot day with the door unlatched to keep cool, I see no problem with this, provided you remember to lock it before take off,

I myself have a small bulldog clip on the mounted on coaming,

with a piece of red/green cardboard, and if I am doing anything unusual,

Taxing on reserve etc I flip it to the red side, cost 50p

Use to do the same thing when flying on X/Feed in twins.

Alan

tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

We start our clocks in the Boeings for the same reason….anything unusually selected, or different, or a reminder.

TR



On 2 Oct 2014, at 7:55 am, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi All.

 I agree with Bob one this one, its a question of using the check list and a visual check that the bolts are engaged, it has happened may times and can only be put down to poor airman ship, but we all make mistake. 

 Many people taxy on a hot day with the door unlatched to keep cool, I see no problem with this, provided you remember to lock it before take off,

 I myself have a small bulldog clip on the mounted on coaming,

 with a piece of red/green cardboard, and if I am doing anything unusual,

 Taxing on reserve etc I flip it to the red side, cost 50p

 Use to do the same thing when flying on X/Feed in twins.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431369#431369

JonSmith

Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 110

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

I'm with you on his one Bob.  IMHO there is nothing wrong with the door design, in fact it is very good.  But during our type conversions we need to learn how it works and thereafter religiously include FULLY AND PROPERLY checking it is locked before we take off.  EVERY TIME!  Over the years I have flown many different types of glider, every one having a very different canopy locking system.  You learn how it works before you go - then always do your before take off checks.  Glider pilots are good at this.   (I'm sure many on here from the uk will know C.B.S.I.F.T.C.B !!).  Even so, I can think of two incidents I have witnessed where glider pilots have taken off with their canopies unlocked and therefore they have broken.  I guess sometimes sh*t happens!

I don't want a mod for this - prefer to trust myself - and hope I continue to get it right!

_________________
G-TERN
Classic Mono

Troy Maynor

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 162

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:21 am Post subject: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

I agree with Bob. Preflight.... Just before throttle up, check the doors...but

if you want some cheap insurance too put a switch on each of the rear shoot bolts that puts a ground on a bright red LED directly in front of you on the panel, you are much less likely to take off with a door ajar. As to snagging the handle in-flight and opening a door, there was a point in the building of the doors where a simple flat piece of fiberglass is installed that hides the end of the door handle requiring you to reach behind it to open the door latch. There should not be a knob or handle extension of any kind attached to the door opening lever that can be snagged with your shirt sleeve. 

Troy

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:45 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

 	  Quote: 	
		   but if you want some cheap insurance too put a switch on each of the rear

shoot bolts that puts a ground on a bright red LED directly in front of you
	


on the panel...

And then install a test button to verify that the leds are still alive.

Complicate cabling AND checklist.



 	  Quote: 	
		   a simple flat piece of fiberglass is installed that hides the end of the

door handle ...
	


Did it after (unfortunately) second departure due to passenger elbow  I

do recommand it if not yet done

Max  Cointe

mcointe(at)free.fr

F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 520 hours



F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S 

Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:05 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Re door handle guard please refer to manual P34-8.  It was a mandatory mod

originally then was incorporated as standard build procedure.  Somehow some

builders seem to have missed this.

Pete Jeffers



--

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

On Oct 2, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  but if you want some cheap insurance too put a switch on each of the rear

	
shoot bolts that puts a ground on a bright red LED directly in front of youon the panel...And then install a test button to verify that the leds are still alive.Complicate cabling AND checklist. 	




With thanks to Raimo Toivio for the design and components, I have mounted two robust pressure switches which will give me two lit green LEDs on the panel when the rear shoot bolts for the two doors are engaged…no need for test button to ensure system is operational…really quite simple…I’ve also fabbed tabs on both doors which are located so that pilot can reach to ensure firm closure w/o relying on passenger…nonetheless: Checklists Rule !!



 [quote][b]

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:24 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Hi Fred

     

     So you are flying along with 2 green lights and one goes out.  How     do you know if it is an electrical problem or the door shoot bolt     not engaged without a test switch?

     (OK you will get a great blast of air through all the holes in the     top of the tunnel which would give a clue.)

     

     You can see and feel the passenger shoot bolt with your right hand,     and feel the left seat shoot bolt in place with your left hand.

     

     Regards

     

     Pete

     

     On 02/10/14 17:31, Fred Klein wrote:

     

     [quote]              

                On Oct 2, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)>           wrote:

                   	  Quote: 	
		              	  Quote: 	
		  but if             you want some cheap insurance too put a switch on each of             the rear

           	
           shoot bolts that puts a             ground on a bright red LED directly in front of you           on the panel...           And then install a test             button to verify that the leds are still alive.           Complicate cabling AND             checklist.         	
         

       

       With thanks to Raimo Toivio for the design and components, I         have mounted two robust pressure switches which will give me two         lit green LEDs on the panel when the rear shoot bolts for the         two doors are engaged…no need for test button to ensure system         is operational…really quite simple…I’ve also fabbed tabs on both         doors which are located so that pilot can reach to ensure firm         closure w/o relying on passenger…nonetheless: Checklists Rule !!

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:41 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Pete…don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but as you point out if I’m flying along and a light goes out, other clues as to what’s going on will be obvious. My sole reason for installing the LEDs is to have an additional confirmation that all is well during preflight checklist…F.

On Oct 2, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

[quote]                   Hi Fred

     

     So you are flying along with 2 green lights and one goes out.  How     do you know if it is an electrical problem or the door shoot bolt     not engaged without a test switch?

     (OK you will get a great blast of air through all the holes in the     top of the tunnel which would give a clue.)

     

     You can see and feel the passenger shoot bolt with your right hand,     and feel the left seat shoot bolt in place with your left hand.

     

     Regards

     

     Pete

     

     On 02/10/14 17:31, Fred Klein wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                

                On Oct 2, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)>           wrote:

                   	  Quote: 	
		              	  Quote: 	
		  but if             you want some cheap insurance too put a switch on each of             the rear

           	
           shoot bolts that puts a             ground on a bright red LED directly in front of you           on the panel...           And then install a test             button to verify that the leds are still alive.           Complicate cabling AND             checklist.         	
         

       

       With thanks to Raimo Toivio for the design and components, I         have mounted two robust pressure switches which will give me two         lit green LEDs on the panel when the rear shoot bolts for the         two doors are engaged…no need for test button to ensure system         is operational…really quite simple…I’ve also fabbed tabs on both         doors which are located so that pilot can reach to ensure firm         closure w/o relying on passenger…nonetheless: Checklists Rule !!

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     



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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:33 pm Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Hi Fred

     

     If you like lights that is good I am sure they work.  It is just     that it is so easy to see the actual components that the light are     checking.

     

     Regards

     

     Pete

     

     

     On 02/10/14 19:40, Fred Klein wrote:

     

     [quote]              Pete…don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but as you point out if       I’m flying along and a light goes out, other clues as to what’s       going on will be obvious. My sole reason for installing the LEDs       is to have an additional confirmation that all is well during       preflight checklist…F.       

                    On Oct 2, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)>             wrote:

                       	  Quote: 	
		                             Hi Fred

               

               So you are flying along with 2 green lights and one goes               out.  How do you know if it is an electrical problem or               the door shoot bolt not engaged without a test switch?

               (OK you will get a great blast of air through all the               holes in the top of the tunnel which would give a clue.)

               

               You can see and feel the passenger shoot bolt with your               right hand, and feel the left seat shoot bolt in place               with your left hand.

               

               Regards

               

               Pete

               

               On 02/10/14 17:31, Fred Klein                 wrote:

               

                	  Quote: 	
		                                    

                                    On Oct 2, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Max Cointe (Free)                     <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)>                      wrote:

                                       	  Quote: 	
		                        	  Quote: 	
		  but if you want                       some cheap insurance too put a switch on each of                       the rear

                     	
                     shoot bolts that puts                       a ground on a bright red LED directly in front of                       you                     on the panel...                     And then install a                       test button to verify that the leds are still                       alive.                     Complicate cabling                       AND checklist.                   	
                   

                 

                 With thanks to Raimo Toivio for the design and                   components, I have mounted two robust pressure                   switches which will give me two lit green LEDs on the                   panel when the rear shoot bolts for the two doors are                   engaged…no need for test button to ensure system is                   operational…really quite simple…I’ve also fabbed tabs                   on both doors which are located so that pilot can                   reach to ensure firm closure w/o relying on                   passenger…nonetheless: Checklists Rule !!

                 

                  	  Quote: 	
		  

	
               



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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
             

           

	
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