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In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror
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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Hi Max,

 Rather than 2 green door lights continually on, my intention is to have a single circuit through both shoot bolt switches, and if either isn't closed, the door and the circuit, a red light stays on, or inflight comes on. That way, my panel has no lights unless something is wrong.

Tony R.



Sent from my iPad



On 3 Oct 2014, at 2:31 am, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:

[quote]

On Oct 2, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  but if you want some cheap insurance too put a switch on each of the rear

	
shoot bolts that puts a ground on a bright red LED directly in front of youon the panel...And then install a test button to verify that the leds are still alive.Complicate cabling AND checklist. 	




With thanks to Raimo Toivio for the design and components, I have mounted two robust pressure switches which will give me two lit green LEDs on the panel when the rear shoot bolts for the two doors are engaged…no need for test button to ensure system is operational…really quite simple…I’ve also fabbed tabs on both doors which are located so that pilot can reach to ensure firm closure w/o relying on passenger…nonetheless: Checklists Rule !!



  	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

a-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

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//forums.matronics.com

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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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[b]

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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:10 pm Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Tony,

 Just make sure you have a push to test as "no light" doesn't tell the whole  story.  It's just test cirucuit and extra wire.  I can build a door in  the time it would take to lead you through how to do it fail safe with proper  door plunger switches that are adjustable.

  

 I just saw something the other day.  A strap of line attached to the  door handle so his wife could pull the door down.  It was a lovely  decorative line, worthy of any draperies.  Too bad it catches your hand  anytime you reach your hand forward or aft.  I guess his wife does not  touch the controls or move when she is in the plane.  He had no door guards  either.  

  

 I'll just push on the door in the center after closing.  If you push  firmly, you will assure a latched door or see it move.

  

 Regards,

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

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Cassel

Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 21
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:09 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Hi Europa Friends



This topic has been discussed many times and rightly so.

I guess it due the fact that our planes are slightly different built.



I recall that when I first installed the sealing round the doors it was a

very tight fit (too tight)

It was not possible, or very hard, to lock the door. I then order new

sealing, very much the same

but with a slightly softer rubber and 2mm less in diameter.



That was the trick for me. The door is now very easy to close with one hand

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brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:23 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Am I missing something here?  If you have a door warning circuit that brings a red light on when the door is open why do you need a test circuit?

 

Standard check on ground- 

Door open, red light on 

Door closed, red light out

 

Surely you have just done a light test ?

 

Regards

 

Brian Davies

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly

Sent: 02 October 2014 23:10

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

 

Tony,



Just make sure you have a push to test as "no light" doesn't tell the whole story.  It's just test cirucuit and extra wire.  I can build a door in the time it would take to lead you through how to do it fail safe with proper door plunger switches that are adjustable.



 



I just saw something the other day.  A strap of line attached to the door handle so his wife could pull the door down.  It was a lovely decorative line, worthy of any draperies.  Too bad it catches your hand anytime you reach your hand forward or aft.  I guess his wife does not touch the controls or move when she is in the plane.  He had no door guards either.  



 



I'll just push on the door in the center after closing.  If you push firmly, you will assure a latched door or see it move.



 



Regards,



Bud

[quote]

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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:51 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

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On 10/03/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Davies wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Am I missing something here?  If you have a door warning circuit

 that brings a red light on when the door is open why do you need a

 test circuit?


	


Whether you have a red light that comes on when the door is unlocked,

or a green light that goes out when the door is unlocked, both systems

can fail easily.

A lit green light might be caused by the switch sticked in the on

position, or a red light might not lit because a wire is broken.

If we would rely on lights instead of a physical confirmation that the

door is locked, we would for sure have more door-incidents!



A solution is to have a test-switch, so you can confirm that the

system is working properly.



This means you have to put "test the door lights" on your checklist.



Another solution is to monitor the change of state of the lights while

closing the doors. A red light should be lit and then go out while

closing the doors, or a green light should be off and then come on

while closing the doors. This means you need to be aware of what you

are doing while closing the doors and monitor the light.



Bottom line is:

Instead of feeling that the door is closed we now have to push a

button, or we have to monitor the change of state of a light.



We don't gain anything by this.



I'm fond of gadgets in my airplane, but this one didn't make it for

the reasons above. It is completely useless. One potential for missing

something on the checklist is then replaced by another potential to

mis something on the checklist.



Frans

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brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:25 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

"Another solution is to monitor the change of state of the lights while closing the doors. A red light should be lit and then go out while closing the doors, or a green light should be off and then come on while closing the doors. This means you need to be aware of what you are doing while closing the doors and monitor the light."



Exactly my point Frans.



I have a door warning light system that gets checked every time I fly  using the above method but I don't rely on it.  I physically check that the doors are closed.

Sadly, human beings are more failure prone than a modern LED!



Brian



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john.heykoop(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:13 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

I am with Brian on this one. We are all fallible and can so easily miss out an item on the checklist, or fail to do a check properly because we get distracted. If the item in question is the doors then the consequences can be serious. Having two separate items on the checklist, checking the doors AND checking that you haven't got a red warning light is good insurance against our shortcomings.



John

XL mono G-JHKP

[quote] On 3 Oct 2014, at 12:24, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk> wrote:

 

 

 

 "Another solution is to monitor the change of state of the lights while closing the doors. A red light should be lit and then go out while closing the doors, or a green light should be off and then come on while closing the doors. This means you need to be aware of what you are doing while closing the doors and monitor the light."

 

 Exactly my point Frans.

 

 I have a door warning light system that gets checked every time I fly  using the above method but I don't rely on it.  I physically check that the doors are closed.

 Sadly, human beings are more failure prone than a modern LED!

 

 Brian

 

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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Brian,

 Short answer:  If the light is a normally closed switch and  opens with the with the door latch engaged, in the event the switch failed  or bulb burned out during taxi or door openned and closed again for some  reason just prior to takeoff while awaiting traffic, a warning light check is  done in many comercial/military aircraft to assure circuit, and warning light  are functioning (along with a visiual check).  This checks the circuit is  good and not a "warning / malfunction system" failure giving a false  safety check.  It seems if the lights are normally out for takeoff, but go  unnoticed in the on position during taxi, pilots are creatures of habbit,  if they didn't notice the lights during taxi, they sure as  heck wouldn’t  be looking at the light while they are closing the door.  They are busy  getting ready for takeoff.  And so many times, pop went the  canopy. 

  

 "Canopys closed and locked, stripes aligned (push checked secure for us),  warning lights out, test good.  Ready for takeoff sir."

  

 It was and still is part of the redundant redundancy check we  have gone through to assure canopys/doors are not lost on takeoff.

  

 Push on the door still works.  No lights, bells, whistles, just plain  checklist adherence.  

  

 "Doors checked secure."

  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror

Hi All.

The Europa is a simple aeroplane, if you like switches and lights that's OK.

The doors are in full view, and are within arm's length.

But the very best way is the Old Mark One Eye Ball. it works.

And its works looking outside as well, when flying VFR its the best radar you have. rather than pushing button on the 5 GPSs. 

We all make mistakes, Sarcastic comments are not needed when posting one's mishaps,   its nice to see pilots posting there experiences,

Well Done

Alan,

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