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VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

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schmoboy

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 130

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:39 pm Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

I had the nose lifted off the ground to start the recent service 

bulletin (no cracks) and noticed another issue.



One of my VA-144 bushings, which is used where the nose gear leg 

attaches to the engine mount (plans page 46-5) has a lot of play in it.  

I can grab the nose gear leg and make it rock left to right and hear the 

play in the bushing in the engine mount.  Only ~60 hours on the plane, 

so I'm sure it has been that way since the beginning, but just noticed 

it now.



I recall someone else mentioning that issue and having a fix for it, but 

I can't locate the conversation in the search.  Can't remember if they 

had a new bushing made.  Anyone recall the person that posted about this 

a year or two ago?



Thanks,



-Sean #40303

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:00 am Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

That was Robin Marks. But I don't remember more about it. 



Gary SPECKETER



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 19, 2014, at 7:38 PM, Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I had the nose lifted off the ground to start the recent service bulletin (no cracks) and noticed another issue.

 

 One of my VA-144 bushings, which is used where the nose gear leg attaches to the engine mount (plans page 46-5) has a lot of play in it.  I can grab the nose gear leg and make it rock left to right and hear the play in the bushing in the engine mount.  Only ~60 hours on the plane, so I'm sure it has been that way since the beginning, but just noticed it now.

 

 I recall someone else mentioning that issue and having a fix for it, but I can't locate the conversation in the search.  Can't remember if they had a new bushing made.  Anyone recall the person that posted about this a year or two ago?

 

 Thanks,

 

 -Sean #40303

toaster73(at)embarqmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:45 am Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

I had this problem last inspection. I only had about 70 hours too. I am not

sure if they actually wore or not, they may have gone in tight only because

of paint and then with paint wearing the problem shows up. I think the

engine mount holes are too big from the start though. Anyway, the fix was

the below parts from Van's. They have these oversized bushings ready, but

not really listed online. Once I got these parts I borrowed some pin gauges

from the machine shop to check my engine mount boss diameters precisely. I

picked the gauge that fit in the boss with the best feel not too tight, but

no play. Then I had the machine shop machine the oversized bushings outside

diameter to that pin gauge size (+/-.002). It is nice and smooth action now

with no wobble. The bolts were fine as were the bolt holes in the bushings,

all the play was between the bushing and engine mount boss. 

I have not done bulletin yet.

Good Luck

Chris Lucas

N919AR



--

schmoboy

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 130

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:04 am Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

Thanks for the info Chris.  Will get a couple of these ordered.



-Sean

[quote] Chris <mailto:toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>

 September 20, 2014 at 8:44 AM

 



 I had this problem last inspection. I only had about 70 hours too. I 

 am not

 sure if they actually wore or not, they may have gone in tight only 

 because

 of paint and then with paint wearing the problem shows up. I think the

 engine mount holes are too big from the start though. Anyway, the fix was

 the below parts from Van's. They have these oversized bushings ready, but

 not really listed online. Once I got these parts I borrowed some pin 

 gauges

 from the machine shop to check my engine mount boss diameters precisely. I

 picked the gauge that fit in the boss with the best feel not too 

 tight, but

 no play. Then I had the machine shop machine the oversized bushings 

 outside

 diameter to that pin gauge size (+/-.002). It is nice and smooth 

 action now

 with no wobble. The bolts were fine as were the bolt holes in the 

 bushings,

 all the play was between the bushing and engine mount boss.

 I have not done bulletin yet.

 Good Luck

 Chris Lucas

 N919AR



 --

bill.peyton

Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 198
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:30 am Post subject: Re: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

I had performed the SB on the strut last month, but did not check the side play.  This week, while doing my condition inspection, I hoisted the nose wheel off the ground, and discovered I have the same excessive play in both of the VA-144 bushings.  This is at 326 hours on the airframe.

Does Van's have a part number specified for the oversized bushing?

_________________
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC

schmoboy

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 130

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:22 am Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

From Chris' earlier reply, it is not listed online so you have to give 

them a call...



BUSH-ST 313X780X1.563

R0 VA-144 OVSZ

OVERSIZED BUSHING

 	  Quote: 	
		   bill.peyton <mailto:peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net>

 October 5, 2014 at 8:30 AM

 



 I had performed the SB on the strut last month, but did not check the 

 side play. This week, while doing my condition inspection, I hoisted 

 the nose wheel off the ground, and discovered I have the same 

 excessive play in both of the VA-144 bushings. This is at 326 hours on 

 the airframe.

 Does Van's have a part number specified for the oversized bushing?



 --------

 Bill

 WA0SYV

 Aviation Partners, LLC





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431525#431525

bill.peyton

Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 198
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

Thanks Sean. The P/N does not show up in his post on my computer for some reason.....

_________________
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

With more need for the oversize bushing it seems like they should put it 

in the online catalog.



BUSH-ST 313X780X1.563

R0 VA-144 OVSZ

OVERSIZED BUSHING



Linn



On 10/5/2014 8:25 PM, bill.peyton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks Sean.  The P/N does not show up in his post on my computer for some reason.....



 --------

 Bill

 WA0SYV

 Aviation Partners, LLC





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431554#431554





 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:41 am Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

Must have been a batch of bushings or mounts.  I'm at 500 hours with a 

cracked plate but no side play to speak of which suggests it's not from 

wear but from some out of spec parts.



On 10/5/2014 9:00 PM, Linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 With more need for the oversize bushing it seems like they should put 

 it in the online catalog.



 BUSH-ST 313X780X1.563

 R0 VA-144 OVSZ

 OVERSIZED BUSHING



 Linn



 On 10/5/2014 8:25 PM, bill.peyton wrote:

> 

>

> Thanks Sean.  The P/N does not show up in his post on my computer for 

> some reason.....

>

> --------

> Bill

> WA0SYV

> Aviation Partners, LLC

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431554#431554

>

>

> -----

> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com







 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:59 am Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

My point was that they have a fix that's hidden from the -10 owners 

.... or at least not widely known as this thread shows.  I wonder about 

the owner/not builder that has no clue .... and the A&P that does the 

conditional inspection.  What happens if the 'fix' isn't found and done 

where the 'slop' (out of spec) exists ..... ?  Does the nose gear fail? 

Not something I want to experience, and might if not for this list.

If it is truly an out of spec part, why didn't a quality inspection 

catch them?  So many nagging questions.

Linn

On 10/6/2014 12:41 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Must have been a batch of bushings or mounts.  I'm at 500 hours with a 

 cracked plate but no side play to speak of which suggests it's not 

 from wear but from some out of spec parts.

 On 10/5/2014 9:00 PM, Linn Walters wrote:

> 

>

> With more need for the oversize bushing it seems like they should put 

> it in the online catalog.

>

> BUSH-ST 313X780X1.563

> R0 VA-144 OVSZ

> OVERSIZED BUSHING

>

> Linn

>

> On 10/5/2014 8:25 PM, bill.peyton wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Thanks Sean.  The P/N does not show up in his post on my computer 

>> for some reason.....

>>

>> --------

>> Bill

>> WA0SYV

>> Aviation Partners, LLC

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431554#431554

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> -----

>> No virus found in this message.

>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>>

>>

>

> -----

> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:17 am Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

Agreed.  Just adding information.

I would further say that Vans is and has been doing a lousy job of 

supporting those of us in flying/maintenance mode.  It seems they may be 

responsive in one-on-one react mode but lousy in the proactive 

informing-the-(the RV10)-flying-community mode. However, as far as 

one-on-one support I wouldn't know since I stopped calling Vans for 

advice after I got the "don't worry, it's not the Shuttle, it's more 

like a lawn mower" speech.

Excellent designs, well engineered kits, good customer service, 

questionable customer support.  Perhaps the most you can expect from 

such an outstanding engineering firm.

(sarcasm off)

The cracked plate resulted from a minor design oversight.  The SB is 

good but  a Service Alert/Letter/Bulletin regarding periodic adjustment 

could have helped many owners avoid the cracking in the first place.  A 

similar communication seems appropriate for the loose bearings.

..just so you understand where I'm coming from Linn.  Sorry if it 

seemed otherwise.

Bill "SB update 3.01; the agony and the ecstasy of CHT and EGT probes 

for each GD cylinder" Watson

On 10/6/2014 12:57 PM, Linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 My point was that they have a fix that's hidden from the -10 owners 

 ..... or at least not widely known as this thread shows.  I wonder 

 about the owner/not builder that has no clue .... and the A&P that 

 does the conditional inspection.  What happens if the 'fix' isn't 

 found and done where the 'slop' (out of spec) exists ..... ?  Does the 

 nose gear fail? Not something I want to experience, and might if not 

 for this list.

 If it is truly an out of spec part, why didn't a quality inspection 

 catch them?  So many nagging questions.

 Linn

 On 10/6/2014 12:41 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

> 

>

> Must have been a batch of bushings or mounts.  I'm at 500 hours with 

> a cracked plate but no side play to speak of which suggests it's not 

> from wear but from some out of spec parts.

>

> On 10/5/2014 9:00 PM, Linn Walters wrote:

>> 

>>

>> With more need for the oversize bushing it seems like they should 

>> put it in the online catalog.

>>

>> BUSH-ST 313X780X1.563

>> R0 VA-144 OVSZ

>> OVERSIZED BUSHING

>>

>> Linn

>>

>>

>>

>> On 10/5/2014 8:25 PM, bill.peyton wrote:

>>> 

>>> <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net>

>>>

>>> Thanks Sean.  The P/N does not show up in his post on my computer 

>>> for some reason.....

>>>

>>> --------

>>> Bill

>>> WA0SYV

>>> Aviation Partners, LLC

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Read this topic online here:

>>>

>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431554#431554

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> -----

>>> No virus found in this message.

>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> -----

>> No virus found in this message.

>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>>

>>

>

> -----

> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

Okay, that was a rather cringe-worthy post.

Rather than retract my rant, let me clarify a bit.

I'm in love with my '10 and everything having to do with it including 

Vans.  Van and his team stand a top one of the greatest aviation 

enterprises in the short history of aviation.

How did they do it?  At the heart, great design and engineering for a  

once nascent market.  Great engineering makes the world turn and in the 

case of the RV line of airplanes, the product sells itself.  Well 

designed, engineered and produced for a market segment just drooling for 

such an offering.  I'm one of them and I'm very happy.

I do enjoy telling people "oohing and ahhing" over my plane that they 

need to understand that it is a highly evolved kit.  Building it is 

pretty easy to do and that if they were so motivated, they could do it 

too.  I also enjoy telling them while I had a lot of help completing it, 

the factory is the last place to go for that help.  Rather it was a 

social media community  supported build for me.  The community of 

builders is resource that makes it all possible for the former model 

airplane builders and their like to complete such a project.

I remember going to Oshkosh and S&F looking for a plane to build.  Lots 

of people were selling kits but Vans could barely be accused of it.  No, 

it was very hard to engage someone from the factory in trying to 

convince you to buy a kit... unless perhaps you took the time to 

schedule a flight or something.  Want a hat, no problem.  Want a ride, 

there's a line.  Want to listen to employees compare trip stories, just 

listen in.  No, the product sold itself, the designer/engineer's dream!  

No need to go to a show or take a ride.  It's reputation in the 

community and the numbers involved told a pretty compelling story for 

this buyer. I was looking at the '7, dreaming of a '14 and then the '10 

flew. Oh Yeah!

My guess is that customer support is a litigation liability in addition 

to being costly.  But most important, the builder/flyer community does a 

more than adequate job of providing that support.  It would seem that 

the '12 is getting a little better flying support just because it's the 

latest offering.

Anyway, half of my temp probes are wired now - the other half will get 

their bloodied knuckles tomorrow.  B*tch B*tch B*tch.

Bill "writing stuff helps" Watson

On 10/6/2014 2:15 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Agreed.  Just adding information.

 I would further say that Vans is and has been doing a lousy job of 

 supporting those of us in flying/maintenance mode.  It seems they may 

 be responsive in one-on-one react mode but lousy in the proactive 

 informing-the-(the RV10)-flying-community mode. However, as far as 

 one-on-one support I wouldn't know since I stopped calling Vans for 

 advice after I got the "don't worry, it's not the Shuttle, it's more 

 like a lawn mower" speech.

 Excellent designs, well engineered kits, good customer service, 

 questionable customer support.  Perhaps the most you can expect from 

 such an outstanding engineering firm.

 (sarcasm off)

 The cracked plate resulted from a minor design oversight.  The SB is 

 good but  a Service Alert/Letter/Bulletin regarding periodic 

 adjustment could have helped many owners avoid the cracking in the 

 first place.  A similar communication seems appropriate for the loose 

 bearings.

 ...just so you understand where I'm coming from Linn.  Sorry if it 

 seemed otherwise.

 Bill "SB update 3.01; the agony and the ecstasy of CHT and EGT probes 

 for each GD cylinder" Watson

 On 10/6/2014 12:57 PM, Linn Walters wrote:

> 

>

> My point was that they have a fix that's hidden from the -10 owners 

> ..... or at least not widely known as this thread shows. I wonder 

> about the owner/not builder that has no clue .... and the A&P that 

> does the conditional inspection.  What happens if the 'fix' isn't 

> found and done where the 'slop' (out of spec) exists ..... ?  Does 

> the nose gear fail? Not something I want to experience, and might if 

> not for this list.

> If it is truly an out of spec part, why didn't a quality inspection 

> catch them?  So many nagging questions.

> Linn

>

> On 10/6/2014 12:41 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Must have been a batch of bushings or mounts.  I'm at 500 hours with 

>> a cracked plate but no side play to speak of which suggests it's not 

>> from wear but from some out of spec parts.

>>

>> On 10/5/2014 9:00 PM, Linn Walters wrote:

>>> 

>>>

>>> With more need for the oversize bushing it seems like they should 

>>> put it in the online catalog.

>>>

>>> BUSH-ST 313X780X1.563

>>> R0 VA-144 OVSZ

>>> OVERSIZED BUSHING

>>>

>>> Linn

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> On 10/5/2014 8:25 PM, bill.peyton wrote:

>>>> 

>>>> <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net>

>>>>

>>>> Thanks Sean.  The P/N does not show up in his post on my computer 

>>>> for some reason.....

>>>>

>>>> --------

>>>> Bill

>>>> WA0SYV

>>>> Aviation Partners, LLC

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Read this topic online here:

>>>>

>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431554#431554

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> -----

>>>> No virus found in this message.

>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> -----

>>> No virus found in this message.

>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> -----

>> No virus found in this message.

>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>>

>>

>

> -----

> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:56 am Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

So it seems all we need to do is let them know ... sometimes.

Let me also comment on the 'Vans Bashing' ..... I doubt there's anyone 

out there that expects any company to be perfect.  As with any prolific 

company and projects of this size there are going to be issues .... some 

get handled in a timely manner and some don't.  When they don't, we seem 

to take it personally.  I think my fiberglass cabin top is a real POS, 

but I've dealt with it and within a month or so I'll be done with it.  

the rest of the fiberglass parts seem to be fairly good ... so far ..... 

so I soldier on.  My goal is to have my picture taken with the 'RV Grin' 

and the issues I have have just slowed me down a little as I work 

through them.

Linn

On 10/7/2014 2:05 PM, JasmineG wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello Linn,

 I will certainly pass along the word that the

 oversized bushing VA-144 should be in our

 catalog. Did you also need to place an order for

 the bushing? Please let me know.

 Thanks,

 Jasmine

 Van's Aircraft

 Order Dept.

 On 5 Oct 2014 at 21:00, Linn Walters wrote:

> With more need for the oversize bushing it seems like they should put it

> in the online catalog.

>

> BUSH-ST 313X780X1.563

> R0 VA-144 OVSZ

> OVERSIZED BUSHING

>

> Linn

bill.peyton

Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 198
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

I decided to take the nose gear apart today to actually measure the VA144 bushing and respective assembly.  



Both of the VA-144 bushings measured .730" OD.  The VA-143 bushing  measured .733 OD.  The ID of the tubing on the engine mount was .760 for both areas.



I spoke with Ken at Vans.  The drawing calls out material of 4130/40 and an OD no greater than .750 with no tolerance given.  Ken was nice enough to go to the parts bin and measure new stock -144 and -143 bushings.  The measurements ranged from .746" to .748"  OD for both.



From the above data one can conclude that either the bushings on my gear have worn almost .020" in 300 hours of use (impossible in my opinion), or Vans had a bad batch at some point in time.



I ordered both the oversize (.780" OD) and the standard size bushing for both the -143 and -144 to experiment with.  I strongly suggest that this be checked as part of the service bulletin for the nose strut.

_________________
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC

toaster73(at)embarqmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

I could not find my notes from last march when i dealt with this but .757 rings a bell for the size bushing i ended up with after machining the oversize down to fit my engine mount.

- Chris

N919AR

---

bill.peyton

Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 198
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

I finished up replacing all three nose gear bushings, the 143 and 2-144's.  When I took an more exact measurement, the 144's were both around .737 OD the 143 was .745 OD.  I replaced them with the oversized .780 bushings obtained from Vans.  The 144's were turned down to .7625.  The 143 was turned to .7640.  This left me with adequate clearance for the bushings.  This also eliminated all of the play in the nose end of the nose gear, both horizontal and vertical.  The AN hardware looked essentially new, so it was not replaced. The Vans P/N for the oversize VA-143 is Bush-ST 438X780X1.938 Oversize Bush VA-143.  The 144 is posted above.



The good news is after a couple of test flights and long taxis, I think I have eliminated 90% of the vibration I was seeing around 14kts.  It was not side to side shimmy, but more of a hobby horse motion with the nose wheel.  The excessive play must be exacerbating the resonance.  It's not totally gone, I only felt it during the first taxi when the tire had a flat spot.  After landing and taxing back it was essentially gone.  I need to have a few more flights to pronounce it cured.  



If you have the RV-10 landing gear shudder and have exhausted all other avenues, this might be an additional check to make.

_________________
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC

jump2(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:05 am Post subject: VA-144 Nose Gear Bushing

Have you put a GOPro out under the wing to see for sure what's happening? It's amazing what you might find.



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 11, 2014, at 8:34 or PM, "bill.peyton" <peyton.b(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 I finished up replacing all three nose gear bushings, the 143 and 2-144's.  When I took an more exact measurement, the 144's were both around .737 OD the 143 was .745 OD.  I replaced them with the oversized .780 bushings obtained from Vans.  The 144's were turned down to .7625.  The 143 was turned to .7640.  This left me with adequate clearance for the bushings.  This also eliminated all of the play in the nose end of the nose gear, both horizontal and vertical.  The AN hardware looked essentially new, so it was not replaced. The Vans P/N for the oversize VA-143 is Bush-ST 438X780X1.938 Oversize Bush VA-143.  The 144 is posted above.

 

 The good news is after a couple of test flights and long taxis, I think I have eliminated 90% of the vibration I was seeing around 14kts.  It was not side to side shimmy, but more of a hobby horse motion with the nose wheel.  The excessive play must be exacerbating the resonance.  It's not totally gone, I only felt it during the first taxi when the tire had a flat spot.  After landing and taxing back it was essentially gone.  I need to have a few more flights to pronounce it cured.  

 

 If you have the RV-10 landing gear shudder and have exhausted all other avenues, this might be an additional check to make.

 

 --------

 Bill 

 WA0SYV

 Aviation Partners, LLC

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431773#431773

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