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McFly
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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 Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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Have to get that from the 52 community.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 11, 2014, at 8:59 PM, Todd McCutchan <todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)> wrote:
[quote]Looking for the following for Yak 50
"Parking brake" - arm that flips up below handbrake that holds it in position.
Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
[b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:10 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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They did not put them into Yak-50's, you will need one off a 52, and then add it.
My next question: Why in the world would you want it?
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:17 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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A guy once went out and purchased a YAK-50 that used to belong to the President of Lithuania. It was a very early model and included that parking brake lock (1974).
He locked the brakes down using this device.
He came out some time later and went to start the airplane, but the air valve did not open to start the engine, or so he thought.
So he set the throttle, got out, chocked the airplane, and started to hand prop it.
It started, than then rolled over the chocks. It just missed him as it accelerated across the ramp, tail came up, and then it smashed right into the side of a hanger and ripped one wing right off the airplane.
You can guess...... but I am sure most (if not all) have already figured out what happened. The brake lock depleted all the air, which is why it did not start. The pilot, assuming the "parking brake" was set, did not realize that without air pressure, there is no "parking brake". Result? One more Yak-50 struck from the records.
With respect to all that might disagree, I think that this so called "parking brake lock" would be the first thing I would remove from every Yak on the planet.
Mark
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:31 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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I would humbly suggest that it is very useful, but only for starting. Otherwise, how do you hold the stick back; press the starter button; have one hand on the throttle; and be ready to switch on the magnetos. When doing a lot of 50 flying, I used elastic bands to hold the brakes on while starting, but never as a "parking-brake".
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:31 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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Or, put in the post flight check list "Unlock Parking Brake Lever Before Exiting Airplane". Then on the preflight checklist, something like "DO NOT SET AND/OR LOCK PARKING BRAKE BEFORE TURNING MAIN AIR ON AND VERIFYING ADEQUATE AIR PRESSURE"
The moral of the story is, one should not attempt to start, taxi or fly an airplane they are unfamiliar with without proper instruction.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 10/14/2014 9:17 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
[quote] [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil) A guy once went out and purchased a YAK-50 that used to belong to the President of Lithuania. It was a very early model and included that parking brake lock (1974). He locked the brakes down using this device. He came out some time later and went to start the airplane, but the air valve did not open to start the engine, or so he thought. So he set the throttle, got out, chocked the airplane, and started to hand prop it. It started, than then rolled over the chocks. It just missed him as it accelerated across the ramp, tail came up, and then it smashed right into the side of a hanger and ripped one wing right off the airplane. You can guess...... but I am sure most (if not all) have already figured out what happened. The brake lock depleted all the air, which is why it did not start. The pilot, assuming the "parking brake" was set, did not realize that without air pressure, there is no "parking brake". Result? One more Yak-50 struck from the records. With respect to all that might disagree, I think that this so called "parking brake lock" would be the first thing I would remove from every Yak on the planet. Mark --
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kregg(at)balancemyprop.co
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:23 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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I believe turning on the main air valve is a check list item before starting the engine in any configuration. Which means the parking brake system would be active. Removing the parking braking safety lever is a dumb idea and any case.
Perhaps we need to educate the pilots on how to use the aircraft.
Just saying,
Kregg
Victory Aero
2502 John Montgomery Dr.
San Jose, CA 95148
408-836-5122
www.victoryhangar.com
www.balancemyprop.com
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:04 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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Just for discussion purposes only:
The main air was turned on. The parking brake was "active". That is why it bled the whole bottle to zero Kregg.
As far as removing the parking brake mechanism, in your opinion it is a "bad idea", but tell that to the Russians please. They usually had a good reason for everything they do. They removed them on the YAK-50, or better said, did not install them.... sometime after around 1978 or so. I've flown three Yak-50's and own the wreck of a 4th which happens to be the one that I was telling you about in the story. None of them have that parking brake system. Todd was asking for the parts to put them BACK on a YAK-50, when the Russians specifically took them OUT of that airplane.
It is my personal opinion that they probably left them IN the YAK-52, as that aircraft was used as a PRIMARY TRAINER. The Yak-50 was typically not flown by student pilots, but instead by their Aerobatic Team Members. That information comes from Sergei Boriak, and Vladimir Yastremski.
You are welcome to your opinion, but I honestly do not believe it was a "dumb idea".
You said: "Perhaps we need to educate the pilots on how to use the aircraft."
That is absolutely true, and any YAK-52 pilot would need to be educated on how to start a YAK-50 without a parking brake, as they do not have them installed.
Just saying ...... too.
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McFly
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:30 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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Funny enough learning that the parking brake was not standard on the Yak 50 is a surprise to me!
Thought they were standard as our Termikas restored one had it and my '85 I am restoring doesn't.
I must say that I am very fond of having it for fueling (I stand on the tire), run up and long waits for takeoff.
With air off there are no brakes regardless and most of the 50's I looked at had some damage resulting from loss of braking due to no air.
Perhaps lack of hydraulic brakes or western training are more to blame than the "parking" brake.
Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Oct 14, 2014, at 8:23 AM, Kregg Victory <kregg(at)balancemyprop.com (kregg(at)balancemyprop.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Kregg Victory" <kregg(at)balancemyprop.com (kregg(at)balancemyprop.com)>
I believe turning on the main air valve is a check list item before starting the engine in any configuration. Which means the parking brake system would be active. Removing the parking braking safety lever is a dumb idea and any case.
Perhaps we need to educate the pilots on how to use the aircraft.
Just saying,
Kregg
Victory Aero
2502 John Montgomery Dr.
San Jose, CA 95148
408-836-5122
www.victoryhangar.com
www.balancemyprop.com
--
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_________________
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
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kregg(at)balancemyprop.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:33 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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Mark, Very Good points mostly. Although, again checking the "air" in the system in a check list item prior to starting for someone checked out in the aircraft.
We both agree pilots need more education on the aircraft.
I have a 1984 Yak 50 with came with the parking brake installed...................... Just a FYI
And on the good side "The Russians" also took out the pilots.................. 
Have a good day!
Kregg
Victory Aero
2502 John Montgomery Dr.
San Jose, CA 95148
408-836-5122
www.victoryhangar.com
www.balancemyprop.com
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:12 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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I too own a 1984 Yak-50. Without a parking brake.
I believe (but am not sure) that the incident pilot might have seen the air at zero. It is hard for me to believe that he actually missed that, although that is the story. The fact that he might not have realized that with one needle showing zero, and the other needle showing 50 atmos, that he would have NO BRAKES, is something I think COULD have happened. But that is just a guess.
At issue is how a new Yak owner goes about LEARNING ANYTHING about his or her new aircraft. Especially if no one tells them about this list. And even then.... not every comment on the Yak List offers 100% perfectly reliable information. Some is based on personal opinion only (Marvel Mystery Oil & Flight Suits comes to mind), some on hear-say from other owners (plugging up the Accelerator jet in the carb) etc., etc. Some really great debates (mine included) have come from others that offer what they believe is good info. But in a lot of cases, a new owner has NO resources. As an example, how many new Yak of CJ pilots would know that it can be extremely dangerous to use the Emergency Gear Air Valve with the aircraft on jacks? How many would know how to RESET the system after applying Emergency Air to the gear? The list is endless! How many new pilots would know that the starter air valve usually has a manual lever that can be used if the electrical solenoid fails, or that "left and right" on the MAG switch is backwards on the 50 versus the 52, or that early 50's had a Veritherm in the oil cooler? How many people have copies of the Russian list of mods that were done on the airframes by the Russians? How many know that the emergency gear bottle is filled by the engine compressor on the 50 and NOT on the 52? I could go on, as this is actually a good topic all by itself..... meaning as far as being "educated" on flying the Yak-50, I have over 800 hours in 50's and have owned mine for 14 years, and am STILL learning.
Honestly not sure what you meant by: "Just a FYI And on the good side "The Russians" also took out the pilots".
The general point I am making here is that I believe a lot of us might have flown these aircraft for the first time without a thorough knowledge of the installed systems. A really REALLY good example is the oil dilution switch and how to use it. Once I realized how this system operated, I REMOVED it... post haste and replaced it with electrical oil heating! However, some folks might say they LOVE that system and use it all the time! Whatever floats your boat. Opinions differ, and that is what this issue is about really, just different opinions.
Mark
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:13 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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Termikas will not hesitate to install Yak-52 parts into 50's. And I am not saying that is wrong, just thinking that was what might have happened in your case.
The air was NOT OFF in the incident aircraft. Apparently I somehow confused the issue, sorry. The incident pilot set the parking brakes on the 50 with the main air on. He then went about his business on the airport for some hours. When he got back, the air was ZERO and the engine would not start. He then hand propped and started the engine, with the parking brake set. He had only owned the aircraft a short amount of time and was a "member of the Yak list". It is pretty much obvious that he did not equate the loss of main air to "no brakes at all".
An accomplished Yak pilot would never have done this. But then how many new YAK pilots ask questions about their own aircraft LONG AFTER they started flying them? Other than this list, and other than being able to ask an expert how certain systems actually work new owners are pretty much on their own.
20/20 hindsight is always .... 20/20.
--
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McFly
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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Interesting Mark.
That would indicate a fairly substantial leak in the brake system correct? Would it not be able to be heard?
I never noticed ours bleeding down though I never left it for hours either.
I did see that checking for brake air leak (listening) is part of the before start check on the 50 checklist I have.
Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Oct 14, 2014, at 10:12 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
Termikas will not hesitate to install Yak-52 parts into 50's. And I am not saying that is wrong, just thinking that was what might have happened in your case.
The air was NOT OFF in the incident aircraft. Apparently I somehow confused the issue, sorry. The incident pilot set the parking brakes on the 50 with the main air on. He then went about his business on the airport for some hours. When he got back, the air was ZERO and the engine would not start. He then hand propped and started the engine, with the parking brake set. He had only owned the aircraft a short amount of time and was a "member of the Yak list". It is pretty much obvious that he did not equate the loss of main air to "no brakes at all".
An accomplished Yak pilot would never have done this. But then how many new YAK pilots ask questions about their own aircraft LONG AFTER they started flying them? Other than this list, and other than being able to ask an expert how certain systems actually work new owners are pretty much on their own.
20/20 hindsight is always .... 20/20.
--
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_________________
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.flyams.com |
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scdawson(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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Our will definitely bleed to zero if the parking break is left on because of the wind blowing the rudder back and forth. I suspect that's less likely in a hangar, though.
Shaun
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Todd McCutchan <todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)> wrote:
[quote]Interesting Mark.
That would indicate a fairly substantial leak in the brake system correct? Would it not be able to be heard?
I never noticed ours bleeding down though I never left it for hours either.
I did see that checking for brake air leak (listening) is part of the before start check on the 50 checklist I have.
Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: [url=tel:%28260%29%20402-1740](260) 402-1740[/url]
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Oct 14, 2014, at 10:12 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
Termikas will not hesitate to install Yak-52 parts into 50's. Â Â And I am not saying that is wrong, just thinking that was what might have happened in your case.
The air was NOT OFF in the incident aircraft.   Apparently I somehow confused the issue, sorry.   The incident pilot set the parking brakes on the 50 with the main air on.   He then went about his business on the airport for some hours.   When he got back, the air was ZERO and the engine would not start.   He then hand propped and started the engine, with the parking brake set. He had only owned the aircraft a short amount of time and was a "member of the Yak list".    It is pretty much obvious that he did not equate the loss of main air to "no brakes at all".
An accomplished Yak pilot would never have done this.   But then how many new YAK pilots ask questions about their own aircraft LONG AFTER they started flying them? Other than this list, and other than being able to ask an expert how certain systems actually work new owners are pretty much on their own.
20/20 hindsight is always .... 20/20.
--
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flier
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Yak 50 Parts |
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Perhaps the lock should be called something other than a parking brake...which it is not. We use the lock on our '52s to facilitate starting and shutdown and release it after shutdown when the air supply is shut off.
IMHO the only true parking brake for '52 is chocks.
Regards,
Ted
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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| Quote: | That would indicate a fairly substantial leak in the brake system correct? Would it not be able to be heard?
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Hard to answer that. Maybe yes, maybe no. Easy to find out. Go to your 50, open the main air valve, and use something like a bungee cord and pull the brake handle back. Come back after 6 hours or so and check the air. You might be very surprised.
| Quote: | I never noticed ours bleeding down though I never left it for hours either.
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I no longer have air brakes. Mine are now hydraulic with Cleveland wheels/tires, etc. I left my main air valve on overnight by accident and the next day it was zero air in the main bottle. No idea where the leak was, is.... Remember too that with the main valve open on the 50, (and 52) you are pressurizing your gear actuators. Those things usually leak. Not a whole lot mind you, but those chevron seals are always going to leak a little bit.
| Quote: | I did see that checking for brake air leak (listening) is part of the before start check on the 50 checklist I have.
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Good idea! However, a slow leak would be hard to hear. A bad seal in the actuator would normally be heard I agree. In the end, the main air valve was put in for a very good reason.... they expected the system to leak air, and thus gave a way to isolate it from most of the obvious small leak point.
Mark
On Oct 14, 2014, at 10:12 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
Termikas will not hesitate to install Yak-52 parts into 50's. And I am not saying that is wrong, just thinking that was what might have happened in your case.
The air was NOT OFF in the incident aircraft. Apparently I somehow confused the issue, sorry. The incident pilot set the parking brakes on the 50 with the main air on. He then went about his business on the airport for some hours. When he got back, the air was ZERO and the engine would not start. He then hand propped and started the engine, with the parking brake set. He had only owned the aircraft a short amount of time and was a "member of the Yak list". It is pretty much obvious that he did not equate the loss of main air to "no brakes at all".
An accomplished Yak pilot would never have done this. But then how many new YAK pilots ask questions about their own aircraft LONG AFTER they started flying them? Other than this list, and other than being able to ask an expert how certain systems actually work new owners are pretty much on their own.
20/20 hindsight is always .... 20/20.
--
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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So he can wave and stroke at the same time?
Doc
Sent from my iPad
[quote] On Oct 14, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
They did not put them into Yak-50's, you will need one off a 52, and then add it.
My next question: Why in the world would you want it?
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Viperdoc |
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:39 pm Post subject: Yak 50 Parts |
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Dennis,
That clue bird lands shortly after you try to push the A/C into the hanger if the brake was left set.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 14, 2014, at 9:31 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] Or, put in the post flight check list "Unlock Parking Brake Lever Before Exiting Airplane". Then on the preflight checklist, something like "DO NOT SET AND/OR LOCK PARKING BRAKE BEFORE TURNING MAIN AIR ON AND VERIFYING ADEQUATE AIR PRESSURE"
The moral of the story is, one should not attempt to start, taxi or fly an airplane they are unfamiliar with without proper instruction.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 10/14/2014 9:17 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
[quote] [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil) A guy once went out and purchased a YAK-50 that used to belong to the President of Lithuania. It was a very early model and included that parking brake lock (1974). He locked the brakes down using this device. He came out some time later and went to start the airplane, but the air valve did not open to start the engine, or so he thought. So he set the throttle, got out, chocked the airplane, and started to hand prop it. It started, than then rolled over the chocks. It just missed him as it accelerated across the ramp, tail came up, and then it smashed right into the side of a hanger and ripped one wing right off the airplane. You can guess...... but I am sure most (if not all) have already figured out what happened. The brake lock depleted all the air, which is why it did not start. The pilot, assuming the "parking brake" was set, did not realize that without air pressure, there is no "parking brake". Result? One more Yak-50 struck from the records. With respect to all that might disagree, I think that this so called "parking brake lock" would be the first thing I would remove from every Yak on the planet. Mark --
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