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sw(at)apyxx.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:35 am Post subject: RV-14

I am a first time builder and building a RV-14.  I am trying to plan for the electrical and backup system now.  I will be flying IFR, when necessary.  Here is my potential configuration: 

  

Lycoming IO-390 with dual P-Mags & 40 Amp B&C Alternator (Purchased) 

G3X Dual Touchscreen Monitors 

GMC305 AutoPilot Console 

GTN650 GPS/Comm 

GTN200 Comm 

GMA 240 Audio Panel 

GTX 23 Transponder 

  

So two questions: 

  

What should I do for a backup in the case of a loss of the Garmin System? 

<![if !supportLists]>1.      <![endif]>Add a second ADAHRS and battery backup for the EFIS 

<![if !supportLists]>2.      <![endif]>Add a separate system, i.e. GRT Mini, TruTrak Gemini, Dynon D6 

<![if !supportLists]>3.      <![endif]>Use a portable backup like the Garmin 696 or 796? 

  

What about additional alternator? 

  

My knowledge and experience is only what I have read on-line in the last 6 months and asking a lot of questions, but still very limited. 

  

Thanks, 

  

Stoney Ware 

    [quote][b]

ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: RV-14

40 amps seems somewhat low for what appears to be an all-electric aircraft and IFR use. I installed a 60 amp primary alternator in my all-electric RV-9A for day/night VFR....I'm using Dynon's heated pitot tube and you will want a heated pitot also.

You should have a backup alternator. I'm using PlanePower's 20 amp on an accessory pad at the engine rear...they may offer only 30 amp standby alternators now. Then you'll need an eBuss (endurance buss) if your primary alternator fails and you can quickly switch to the second buss and shed unnecessary load. I'm lucky there, I'm using a VP-200, no longer sold, to do all this. Vertical Power still sells the VP-X and maybe that handles an eBuss conveniently. Regardless, get Bob Nuckoll's electrical book (name escapes me) for lots of good ideas.



I don't have a second, backup aircraft battery, even though I have electronic ignition (Light Speed). I'm using Dynon for avionics and got their backup battery. I'm also going to have a completely separate, portable backup nav in the form of an iPad with WingX or similar. But if it were IFR, I'd probably install a second AHRS.



On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Stoney Ware <sw(at)apyxx.com (sw(at)apyxx.com)> wrote:

[quote]        

I am a first time builder and building a RV-14.  I am trying to plan for the electrical and backup system now.  I will be flying IFR, when necessary.  Here is my potential configuration: 

  

Lycoming IO-390 with dual P-Mags & 40 Amp B&C Alternator (Purchased) 

G3X Dual Touchscreen Monitors 

GMC305 AutoPilot Console 

GTN650 GPS/Comm 

GTN200 Comm 

GMA 240 Audio Panel 

GTX 23 Transponder 

  

So two questions: 

  

What should I do for a backup in the case of a loss of the Garmin System? 

1.      Add a second ADAHRS and battery backup for the EFIS 

2.      Add a separate system, i.e. GRT Mini, TruTrak Gemini, Dynon D6 

3.      Use a portable backup like the Garmin 696 or 796? 

  

What about additional alternator? 

  

My knowledge and experience is only what I have read on-line in the last 6 months and asking a lot of questions, but still very limited. 

  

Thanks, 

  

Stoney Ware 

     	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:50 pm Post subject: RV-14

To answer your specific questions,

     

     1. It would mitigate several potential failure scenarios to add a     2nd ADAHRS and an EFIS battery, and is not that expensive, so I     would suggest these are worthwhile additions, especially as the     autopilot will use the same AHRS.

     2. My experience is that TT ADI and Gemini are not that suitable as     back-up IFR instruments as they provide misleading information at     low speed. Dynon D6 is quite an old instrument now. GRT Mini seems     to fit the bill as an excellent stand-alone back-up, but it is quite     new so not much field experience yet. The alternative is something     like an RC Allen RCA2600 series attitude indicator - but they are     expensive and you would need an ASI & Alt.

     3. I don't think many people consider the 'gyro' page provided by a     GPS to be anything other than a final back-up life saver. GRT Mini     seems like the best bet as there will be much more service     experience by the time you are flying.

     

     As the previous post mentions, 40A is a bit light and 60A might be     more appropriate. I agree a standby alternator also provides a     robust back-up capability for a serious IFR aeroplane.

     

     Peter

     

     On 23/10/2014 17:33, Stoney Ware wrote:

     

     [quote]                       <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

I am a first time builder and building a           RV-14.  I am trying to plan for the electrical and backup           system now.  I will be flying IFR, when necessary.  Here is my           potential configuration:         

          

Lycoming IO-390 with dual P-Mags & 40           Amp B&C Alternator (Purchased)         

G3X Dual Touchscreen Monitors         

GMC305 AutoPilot Console         

GTN650 GPS/Comm         

GTN200 Comm         

GMA 240 Audio Panel         

GTX 23 Transponder         

          

So two questions:         

          

What should I do for a backup in the case           of a loss of the Garmin System?         

1.                  Add a second ADAHRS and battery           backup for the EFIS         

2.                  Add a separate system, i.e. GRT           Mini, TruTrak Gemini, Dynon D6         

3.                  Use a portable backup like the           Garmin 696 or 796?         

          

What about additional alternator?         

          

My knowledge and experience is only what I           have read on-line in the last 6 months and asking a lot of           questions, but still very limited.         

          

Thanks,         

          

Stoney Ware       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:12 pm Post subject: RV-14

Have you priced your choices vs Dynon Skyview? Including annual 

database  and charts update cost?

I think Dynon has been around giving excellent cost effective products 

and service to the experimental market a lot longer than Garmin;

but we all tend to think our choices are superior to other choices. 

IMHO the simplest way to reduce your electrical system needs and costs 

are to go with single ship's battery,

backup up battery for each EFIS screen, and dual ADAHRS,

That is what I have done with my RV-10 with the following choices:

Lycoming IO-540 with dual Bendix 1200 mags, Plane Power 60 amp 

alternator, Odyssey PC-925 battery.

Two Dynon Skyview D1000 screens each with their own backup battery, dual 

ADAHRS, Dynon autopilot, dynon ADSB transponder and receiver

PS Eng PS5000X audio panel

GTN-650

SL30.

Dynon heated pitot/AOA.



Granted the GTN200 was not available when I selected, and the G3X system 

was priced much higher at the time.

PMag still does not have a 6 cyl version, last I checked.

Each Dynon EFIS is independently capable of controlling the autopilot 

servos, each can use either ADAHRS,

I am very comfortable with what i have for flying IFR, day or night.I 

may upgrade one of my screens to touch, but it is not a priority.

Since your PMags produce their own power, no dual bus electrical system 

needed. As long as either of your selected EFIS can operate on a backup 

battery and provide you enough time to get to VFR or on the ground and 

supply you the same level of backup as having old mechanical instruments 

that are required under 91.205 c&d you should be fine.

You will want to do a load analysis to see if 40 amps really is enough. 

While my system is legitimately within the 80% of rated capacity with 

intermittent use items not considered, with everything on it is very 

close to 60 amps, even using LED nav and strobe systems.

Owen Baker has done an excellent document on distilling the 

instrumentation required by reg for IFR in amateur built experimentals, 

certainly contained in archives of this list. Whether you want more than 

legal minimum is up to you and how much electrical complexity you want.



On 10/23/2014 9:33 AM, Stoney Ware wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I am a first time builder and building a RV-14.  I am trying to plan 

 for the electrical and backup system now.  I will be flying IFR, when 

 necessary.  Here is my potential configuration:



 Lycoming IO-390 with dual P-Mags & 40 Amp B&C Alternator (Purchased)



 G3X Dual Touchscreen Monitors



 GMC305 AutoPilot Console



 GTN650 GPS/Comm



 GTN200 Comm



 GMA 240 Audio Panel



 GTX 23 Transponder



 So two questions:



 What should I do for a backup in the case of a loss of the Garmin System?



 1.Add a second ADAHRS and battery backup for the EFIS



 2.Add a separate system, i.e. GRT Mini, TruTrak Gemini, Dynon D6



 3.Use a portable backup like the Garmin 696 or 796?



 What about additional alternator?



 My knowledge and experience is only what I have read on-line in the 

 last 6 months and asking a lot of questions, but still very limited.



 Thanks,



 Stoney Ware



 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: RV-14

I'll echo Kelly on this and add my one cent as well.  With backup batteries

for essential systems I would argue that keeping the simplifications to

system designs and reducing the complexities and parts count should

hopefully reduce potential failure points.  



I too am building an RV-10 and I have gone with dual AFS screens and dual

AHRS.  Each has their own backup battery.  I have Bendix mags so no

electronic ignition.  My e-buss setup is powering things off the TCW backup

batteries.  I have a VP-X and did not want to add the complexity of switches

and fuses to power my essential buss using the ships PC-925 Odyssey battery.

Given a battery master contactor failure I will still have 1 hour or more of

runtime.  If the single 60A alternator fails I will have the ships main

battery and then the backup batteries to run things.  Yes I'll have to

manually load shed but that is a design tradeoff I'm OK with.



I did purchase a Dynon D2 as a backup EFIS.  This will run for 4 hours of

its internal battery.  I wrestled with the D2 vs the Gemini or Mini and in

the end decided on the D2.  The 10 panel did not have a decent location for

a backup efis using dual screens.  The D2 sits on the top of the dash and

mounted where most would put a wet compass.  The other benefit I like w/the

D2 is given a blocked pitot the D2's GPS groundspeed will be adequate.  



I'm a big fan of single alt, single battery designs with adequate battery

backup.  Saves weight wiring complexity.



-Ben

--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: RV-14

I visited Dynon booth today at Copperstate fly-in.

Their subsidiary AFS has a very nice competitor to VPX and Approach 

Systems Faststack in one box, handling all the Dynon network 

connections, a fuse panel and all the switching. AFS or Dynon screens 

are very equivalent. Many of the unique features of each brand have been 

shared after Dynon bought AFS.

Ken, Dynon's sales manager convinced me that a D1 or D2 would 

effectively be a secondary level of backup, after both primary screens 

failed and wasn't all that essential. We each have to decide whether we 

need belt, suspenders and elastic waist band. 8^)



On 10/23/2014 9:18 PM, Ben Westfall wrote:

[quote] 



 I'll echo Kelly on this and add my one cent as well.  With backup batteries

 for essential systems I would argue that keeping the simplifications to

 system designs and reducing the complexities and parts count should

 hopefully reduce potential failure points.



 I too am building an RV-10 and I have gone with dual AFS screens and dual

 AHRS.  Each has their own backup battery.  I have Bendix mags so no

 electronic ignition.  My e-buss setup is powering things off the TCW backup

 batteries.  I have a VP-X and did not want to add the complexity of switches

 and fuses to power my essential buss using the ships PC-925 Odyssey battery.

 Given a battery master contactor failure I will still have 1 hour or more of

 runtime.  If the single 60A alternator fails I will have the ships main

 battery and then the backup batteries to run things.  Yes I'll have to

 manually load shed but that is a design tradeoff I'm OK with.



 I did purchase a Dynon D2 as a backup EFIS.  This will run for 4 hours of

 its internal battery.  I wrestled with the D2 vs the Gemini or Mini and in

 the end decided on the D2.  The 10 panel did not have a decent location for

 a backup efis using dual screens.  The D2 sits on the top of the dash and

 mounted where most would put a wet compass.  The other benefit I like w/the

 D2 is given a blocked pitot the D2's GPS groundspeed will be adequate.



 I'm a big fan of single alt, single battery designs with adequate battery

 backup.  Saves weight wiring complexity.



 -Ben

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: RV-14

I'm not a big fan of each individual component having its own backup battery.

I think it makes for future maintenance issues. To be diligent you must test

each battery on a  regular basis (like at every annual inspection).  A full 



discharge/charge cycle to measure actual remaining battery capacity for 



each battery.

Also, what about keeping a radio, or other important components alive?

A well-designed two battery system does not need to be complex or difficult to use.

-Jeff

 

     On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:39 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

  

  



 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>



I  visited Dynon booth today at Copperstate fly-in.

Their subsidiary AFS has a very nice competitor to VPX and Approach 

Systems Faststack in one box, handling all the Dynon network 

connections, a fuse panel and all the switching. AFS or Dynon screens 

are very equivalent. Many of the unique features of each brand have been 

shared after Dynon bought AFS.

Ken, Dynon's sales manager convinced me that a D1 or D2 would 

effectively be a secondary level of backup, after both primary screens 

failed and wasn't all that essential. We each have to decide whether we 

need belt, suspenders and elastic waist band. 8^)



On 10/23/2014 9:18 PM, Ben Westfall wrote:

[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com (rv10(at)sinkrate.com)>



 I'll echo Kelly on this and add my one cent as well.  With backup batteries

 for  essential systems I would argue that keeping the simplifications to

 system designs and reducing the complexities and parts count should

 hopefully reduce potential failure points.



 I too am building an RV-10 and I have gone with dual AFS screens and dual

 AHRS.  Each has their own backup battery.  I have Bendix mags so no

 electronic ignition.  My e-buss setup is powering things off the TCW backup

 batteries.  I have a VP-X and did not want to add the complexity of switches

 and fuses to power my essential buss using the ships PC-925 Odyssey battery.

 Given a battery master contactor failure I will still have 1 hour or more of

 runtime.  If the single 60A alternator fails I will have the ships main

 battery and then the backup batteries to run things.  Yes I'll have to

 manually load shed but that is a design tradeoff I'm OK  with.



 I did purchase a Dynon D2 as a backup EFIS.  This will run for 4 hours of

 its internal battery.  I wrestled with the D2 vs the Gemini or Mini and in

 the end decided on the D2.  The 10 panel did not have a decent location for

 a backup efis using dual screens.  The D2 sits on the top of the dash and

 mounted where most would put a wet compass.  The other benefit I like w/the

 D2 is given a blocked pitot the D2's GPS groundspeed will be adequate.



 I'm a big fan of single alt, single battery designs with adequate battery

 backup.  Saves weight wiring complexity.



 -Ben

 --

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:40 pm Post subject: RV-14

Primary backup is in fact ship's battery. Depending on your navigation 

needs, a GTN-650 is going to draw between 3.5 and 4 amps, while an SL30 

doing VHF nav will only draw less than 1 amp. A Dynon Skyview draws 

around 3.5-3.8 amps.

My total load for my panel, without any exterior lights or pitot heat is 

around 10 amps. With the PC-925 rated at 28 amp hours I should get at 

least an hour there. At that point, if I haven't found VFR or got 

clearance to the nearest suitable airport with an approach I can make, I 

have done something wrong. The Dynon system has a backup battery charge 

status available, with a reminder of when it was last tested. It is not 

fully discharged in the test, but run for 45 min or to a voltage drop 

that protects the battery. The system gives you the opportunity to push 

one button and run the test whenever you power off the unit. Thus I have 

45 min of EFIS with VFR GPS to get me on the ground after the ship's 

power has dropped below voltage that will support other radios.

Having a total of 3 batteries to test once a year is a whole lot simpler 

than trying to install dual electric buss with one or two alternators 

and one or two batteries that will power what besides you flight 

instruments? You will need to maintain both alternators, both batteries 

, etc. What is most critical to maintain if the ship's alternator and 

main battery fail? Not much matters outside your EFIS.

I do have an essential buss concept, with the items on the list being 

powered directly from the master relay whenever master is on. The 

non-essential are controlled by a single switch.

On 10/23/2014 10:01 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm not a big fan of each individual component having its own backup 

 battery.



 I think it makes for future maintenance issues. To be diligent you 

 must test

 each battery on a regular basis (like at every annual inspection).  A 

 full

 discharge/charge cycle to measure actual remaining battery capacity for

 each battery.



 Also, what about keeping a radio, or other important components alive?



 A well-designed two battery system does not need to be complex or 

 difficult to use.



 -Jeff

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:36 am Post subject: RV-14

As far as your electrical architecture is concerned, you need to do a google search for "The Aeroelectric Connection". The Z- diagrams are in the book and already built to suit your specific application. As mentioned earlier, bob is the author and has done a masterful job at putting the book and diagrams together. Going from memory, you will be looking for either Z-13 or Z-14 for the dual alternator schematic.  

You have come to the right place for help! There are folks on here that are smarter on this subject than I could ever imagine being. 

Justin

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 23, 2014, at 21:11, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

 Have you priced your choices vs Dynon Skyview? Including annual database  and charts update cost?

 I think Dynon has been around giving excellent cost effective products and service to the experimental market a lot longer than Garmin;

 but we all tend to think our choices are superior to other choices. 

 IMHO the simplest way to reduce your electrical system needs and costs are to go with single ship's battery,

 backup up battery for each EFIS screen, and dual ADAHRS,

 That is what I have done with my RV-10 with the following choices:

 Lycoming IO-540 with dual Bendix 1200 mags, Plane Power 60 amp alternator, Odyssey PC-925 battery.

 Two Dynon Skyview D1000 screens each with their own backup battery, dual ADAHRS, Dynon autopilot, dynon ADSB transponder and receiver

 PS Eng PS5000X audio panel

 GTN-650

 SL30.

 Dynon heated pitot/AOA.

 Granted the GTN200 was not available when I selected, and the G3X system was priced much higher at the time.

 PMag still does not have a 6 cyl version, last I checked.

 Each Dynon EFIS is independently capable of controlling the autopilot servos, each can use either ADAHRS,

 I am very comfortable with what i have for flying IFR, day or night.I may upgrade one of my screens to touch, but it is not a priority.

 Since your PMags produce their own power, no dual bus electrical system needed. As long as either of your selected EFIS can operate on a backup battery and provide you enough time to get to VFR or on the ground and supply you the same level of backup as having old mechanical instruments that are required under 91.205 c&d you should be fine.

 You will want to do a load analysis to see if 40 amps really is enough. While my system is legitimately within the 80% of rated capacity with intermittent use items not considered, with everything on it is very close to 60 amps, even using LED nav and strobe systems.

 Owen Baker has done an excellent document on distilling the instrumentation required by reg for IFR in amateur built experimentals, certainly contained in archives of this list. Whether you want more than legal minimum is up to you and how much electrical complexity you want.

> On 10/23/2014 9:33 AM, Stoney Ware wrote:

> 

> I am a first time builder and building a RV-14.  I am trying to plan for the electrical and backup system now.  I will be flying IFR, when necessary.  Here is my potential configuration:

> 

> Lycoming IO-390 with dual P-Mags & 40 Amp B&C Alternator (Purchased)

> 

> G3X Dual Touchscreen Monitors

> 

> GMC305 AutoPilot Console

> 

> GTN650 GPS/Comm

> 

> GTN200 Comm

> 

> GMA 240 Audio Panel

> 

> GTX 23 Transponder

> 

> So two questions:

> 

> What should I do for a backup in the case of a loss of the Garmin System?

> 

> 1.Add a second ADAHRS and battery backup for the EFIS

> 

> 2.Add a separate system, i.e. GRT Mini, TruTrak Gemini, Dynon D6

> 

> 3.Use a portable backup like the Garmin 696 or 796?

> 

> What about additional alternator?

> 

> My knowledge and experience is only what I have read on-line in the last 6 months and asking a lot of questions, but still very limited.

> 

> Thanks,

> 

> Stoney Ware

> 

> *

> 

> 

> *

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:42 am Post subject: RV-14

 	  Quote: 	
		   >>

 >> My knowledge and experience is only what I have read on-line in 

 the last 6 months and asking a lot of questions, but still very limited.

 >>

 >> Thanks,

 >>

 >> Stoney Ware


	


    Suggest you consider Z-13/8 architecture first . . . which

    can be found here (along with it's cousins) . . .



http://tinyurl.com/5wxzn7



    First you need to do a LOAD analysis . . . fancy

    name for making a list of every electron-hungry

    device on your airplane.



    You then sort them into pigeon-holes categorized

    for the various flight . . . with the one called

    "Main Alternator Out" getting special attention.



    Download a form from http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj

    and print three copies. One for each of the Z-13/8

    busses, MAIN, ENDURANCE and BATTERY.



    The goal is to ascertain exactly what your maximum

    alternator loads are and under what conditions.

    The special attention is for MAIN ALT OUT

    where you'd like to get your loads down to

    8A or less.



    The point being that in the unlikely event

    of main alternator failure, you can operate

    enough electro-whizzies to conduct a comfortable

    flight for as long as you have fuel aboard . . .

    while holding battery energy in reserve.



    Once you have the airport in sight, you can

    turn on everything you'd like to light-up . . .

    including the kitchen sink. This will be

    possible because you've included routine

    BATTERY MAINTENANCE in your to-do list

    along with oil changes, checks for leaks,

    tire wear, tire pressures, etc. etc.



    Launching into ANY anticipated mission

    KNOWING your energy requirements along

    with energy availability offers a very

    low risk adventure. But without need

    for the added $maintenance$ of standby

    batteries in the electro-whizzies normally

    considered essential for continued

    flight to airport of destination.



    This offers an opportunity to craft an

    electrical system with predictable endurance

    exceeding duration of fuel on board.



    Make sure that Z-13/8 is truly inadequate to

    your anticipated needs and associated risks

    before you launch into something like Z-14

    (really suited to only a small percentage

    of OBAM aircraft projects), . Bring your musings

    here to the List . . .



    Filling in the knowledge gaps after your

    energy/mission studies are complete starts

    with a copy of the book. Random-access,

    low-energy paper available here . . .



http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5



    or byte-bound, battery-powered copy available

    here . . .



http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5

   Bob . . .

ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:39 am Post subject: RV-14

I must disagree with the attitude here..that a proper backup system is too complicated, so don't do it. The OP's mission is IFR, perhaps at night, probably single-pilot and of course single-engine. That's already a complex task which needs to be done right. In this case, "right" means having backup electricity not from a perhaps tired aircraft battery and an EFIS battery backup.

You must have an e-buss to quickly and easily shed unnecessary load. Once you've acknowledged that complexity, adding a standby alternator, for instance, is not much more difficult and is very prudent.

Studies Mr. Nuckolls' The Aeroelectric Connection book, continue to ask questions here, and implement a backup system that reduces risks to your comfort level, not because it's easier. Many people have done the Z-13 or -14 system given in the book as Mr. Nuckolls has already done most of the design work.

Ralph Finch



RV-9A



[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 

 Primary backup is in fact ship's battery...Having a total of 3 batteries to test once a year is a whole lot simpler than trying to install dual electric buss with one or two alternators and one or two batteries that will power what besides you flight instruments? 

 [b]

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:09 pm Post subject: RV-14

Bob,



In my view Z13/8 has many advantages, but how would you handle the 

start-up brown out problem? For example if an EFIS with integral engine 

monitor is fitted it must be operational during engine start, but is 

unlikely to endure the start-up low voltage transients. A second 

alternator seems by far a better mitigation for main alternator failure 

than a second battery, but I can't see any way around a small additional 

battery to hold up the power for the EFIS/Engine Monitor (and perhaps 

main Nav radio/GPS) during engine start.



What are your thoughts?



Peter



On 24/10/2014 15:41, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

> >>

> >> My knowledge and experience is only what I have read on-line in 

> the last 6 months and asking a lot of questions, but still very limited.

> >>

> >> Thanks,

> >>

> >> Stoney Ware



    Suggest you consider Z-13/8 architecture first . . . which

    can be found here (along with it's cousins) . . .



 http://tinyurl.com/5wxzn7



    First you need to do a LOAD analysis . . . fancy

    name for making a list of every electron-hungry

    device on your airplane.



    You then sort them into pigeon-holes categorized

    for the various flight . . . with the one called

    "Main Alternator Out" getting special attention.



    Download a form from http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj

    and print three copies. One for each of the Z-13/8

    busses, MAIN, ENDURANCE and BATTERY.



    The goal is to ascertain exactly what your maximum

    alternator loads are and under what conditions.

    The special attention is for MAIN ALT OUT

    where you'd like to get your loads down to

    8A or less.



    The point being that in the unlikely event

    of main alternator failure, you can operate

    enough electro-whizzies to conduct a comfortable

    flight for as long as you have fuel aboard . . .

    while holding battery energy in reserve.



    Once you have the airport in sight, you can

    turn on everything you'd like to light-up . . .

    including the kitchen sink. This will be

    possible because you've included routine

    BATTERY MAINTENANCE in your to-do list

    along with oil changes, checks for leaks,

    tire wear, tire pressures, etc. etc.



    Launching into ANY anticipated mission

    KNOWING your energy requirements along

    with energy availability offers a very

    low risk adventure. But without need

    for the added $maintenance$ of standby

    batteries in the electro-whizzies normally

    considered essential for continued

    flight to airport of destination.



    This offers an opportunity to craft an

    electrical system with predictable endurance

    exceeding duration of fuel on board.



    Make sure that Z-13/8 is truly inadequate to

    your anticipated needs and associated risks

    before you launch into something like Z-14

    (really suited to only a small percentage

    of OBAM aircraft projects), . Bring your musings

    here to the List . . .



    Filling in the knowledge gaps after your

    energy/mission studies are complete starts

    with a copy of the book. Random-access,

    low-energy paper available here . . .



 http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5



    or byte-bound, battery-powered copy available

    here . . .



 http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5

   Bob . . .

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: RV-14

I share Peter's concerns.  



In fact, keeping the avionics alive during

crank is one of the criteria (among many others) 

which  led to this design. 



 See attached pdf.



-Jeff

 

     On Friday, October 24, 2014 1:17 PM, Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> wrote:  

   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com (peter(at)sportingaero.com)>Bob,In my view Z13/8 has many advantages, but how would you handle the start-up brown out problem? For example if an  EFIS with integral engine monitor is fitted it must be operational during engine start, but is unlikely to endure the start-up low voltage transients. A second alternator seems by far a better mitigation for main alternator failure than a second battery, but I can't see any way around a small additional battery to hold up the power for the EFIS/Engine Monitor (and perhaps main Nav radio/GPS) during engine start.What are your thoughts?PeterOn 24/10/2014 15:41, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>>>>> >>>> >> My knowledge and experience is only what I have read on-line in >> the last 6 months and asking a lot of questions, but still very  limited.>> >>>> >> Thanks,>> >>>> >> Stoney Ware>>    Suggest you consider Z-13/8 architecture first . . . which>    can be found here (along with it's cousins) . . .>> http://tinyurl.com/5wxzn7>>    First you need to do a LOAD analysis . . . fancy>    name for making a list of every electron-hungry>    device on your airplane.>>    You then sort them into pigeon-holes categorized>    for the various flight . . . with the one called>    "Main Alternator Out" getting special attention.>>    Download a form from http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj>    and print three copies. One for  each of the Z-13/8>    busses, MAIN, ENDURANCE and BATTERY.>>    The goal is to ascertain exactly what your maximum>    alternator loads are and under what conditions.>    The special attention is for MAIN ALT OUT>    where you'd like to get your loads down to>    8A or less.>>    The point being that in the unlikely event>    of main alternator failure, you can operate>    enough electro-whizzies to conduct a comfortable>    flight for as long as you have fuel aboard . . .>    while holding battery energy in reserve.>>    Once you have the  airport in sight, you can>    turn on everything you'd like to light-up . . .>    including the kitchen sink. This will be>    possible because  you've included routine>    BATTERY MAINTENANCE in your to-do list>    along with oil changes, checks for leaks,>    tire wear, tire pressures, etc. etc.>>    Launching into ANY anticipated mission>    KNOWING your energy requirements along>    with energy availability offers a very>    low risk adventure. But without need>    for the added $maintenance$ of standby>    batteries in the electro-whizzies normally>    considered essential for continued>    flight to airport of destination.>>    This offers an opportunity to craft an>     electrical system with predictable endurance>    exceeding duration of fuel on board.>>    Make sure that Z-13/8 is truly inadequate to>     your anticipated needs and associated risks>    before you launch into something like Z-14>    (really suited to only a small percentage>    of OBAM aircraft projects), . Bring your musings>    here to the List . . .>>    Filling in the knowledge gaps after your>    energy/mission studies are complete starts>    with a copy of the book. Random-access,>    low-energy paper available here . . .>> http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5>>    or byte-bound, battery-powered copy available>    here . . .>> http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5>>>   Bob . .  clear="none">

PowDist01a.pdf

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: RV-14

At 03:06 PM 10/24/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<peter(at)sportingaero.com>



Bob,



In my view Z13/8 has many advantages, but how would you handle the 

start-up brown out problem? For example if an EFIS with integral 

engine monitor is fitted it must be operational during engine start, 

but is unlikely to endure the start-up low voltage transients. A 

second alternator seems by far a better mitigation for main 

alternator failure than a second battery, but I can't see any way 

around a small additional battery to hold up the power for the 

EFIS/Engine Monitor (and perhaps main Nav radio/GPS) during engine start.



What are your thoughts?


	


   Brownout resets are not an architecture problem,

   they're a radio problem. A radio that DOES NOT

   conform to DO-160 guidelines for graceful recovery

   after all manner of input power interruptions.



   That capability is supposed to be internal to

   the appliance, not external . . . and for good

   reason. What's the poor C-172 owner supposed to

   do when he wants to modernize his avionics but

   doesn't want to climb the Everest-of-paperwork

   necessary to modify the ship's certificated

   electrical system?



   My work with lithium cells has germinated some

   ideas for very light, no moving parts, brownout

   mitigation for appliances that suffer this malady.

   I'm making some pretty startling discoveries . . .

   startling because of what the suppliers of lithium

   products don't choose to tell us for what ever

   reasons.



   Along those same lines of thought, it's still not

   clear to me that the owner-operator of a brown-out

   vulnerable instrumentation package is at any serious

   risks for having one or more gizmos reboot after engine

   start . . . yeah . . . we were to worship the oil

   pressure gage . . . I remember reading those words

   in my dad's copy of Sick and Rudder from his flight

   school days in 1946.



   But seriously, how many instances of 'failure to

   build pressure' in the first 30 seconds of run

   time were due to lubrication system failure that

   warranted shut-down and investigation?Some airplanes

   I've flow took a minute to develop full oil pressure

   on the gage in very cold weather . . . in spite of

   the fact that nothing was amiss in the engine.



   Architecture should be crafted to optimize system

   performance for all the equipment items needed to

   accomplish the mission. But if some piece of equipment

   fails to meet legacy goals for performance, I'm

   more disposed to put the necessary band-aid on that

   piece of equipment than to take an egg-beater to the

   whole system.



   Bob . . .

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:21 pm Post subject: RV-14

On 10/24/2014 11:41 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 At 03:06 PM 10/24/2014, you wrote:

> 

> <peter(at)sportingaero.com>

>

> Bob,

>

> In my view Z13/8 has many advantages, but how would you handle the 

> start-up brown out problem? For example if an EFIS with integral 

> engine monitor is fitted it must be operational during engine start, 

> but is unlikely to endure the start-up low voltage transients. A 

> second alternator seems by far a better mitigation for main 

> alternator failure than a second battery, but I can't see any way 

> around a small additional battery to hold up the power for the 

> EFIS/Engine Monitor (and perhaps main Nav radio/GPS) during engine 

> start.

>

Having the engine monitor operational during start is 'nice' and seems 

like a must, but for me the brownout problem  was for the rest of the 

EFIS function - flight plans and such - along with  the engine monitor 

display.  I had this brownout problem with a dual alternator -dual batt 

Z-14 on my RV10.

 	  Quote: 	

   Brownout resets are not an architecture problem,

   they're a radio problem. A radio that DOES NOT

   conform to DO-160 guidelines for graceful recovery

   after all manner of input power interruptions.

Well, it's not a 'radio' but the EFIS.  I don't care if the 'radio' 

gracefully recovers or not from a brownout at start.

But I do completely agree that it's not an architecture problem, it's a 

component specific problem.  In my case, the Z-14 architecture 'fits my 

eye' perfectly.  The brownout problem stemmed from (3) GRT HX EFIS units 

without on/off switches.  They, along with the G430 that I like to all 

run before startup were subject to brownout and the subsequent loss of 

flight plan info and a loonnnng startup for the GRTs.  The fix was TCW's 

Intelligent Power Stabilizer.  No change in the Z-14 architecture, just 

some supplemental power stabilization during starts for my GRTs and and 

the G430.

 	  Quote: 	

   That capability is supposed to be internal to

   the appliance, not external . . . and for good

   reason. What's the poor C-172 owner supposed to

   do when he wants to modernize his avionics but

   doesn't want to climb the Everest-of-paperwork

   necessary to modify the ship's certificated

   electrical system?

   My work with lithium cells has germinated some

   ideas for very light, no moving parts, brownout

   mitigation for appliances that suffer this malady.

   I'm making some pretty startling discoveries . . .

   startling because of what the suppliers of lithium

   products don't choose to tell us for what ever

   reasons.

I think TCW's product is just a capacitor but I'm not really knowledgeable.

 	  Quote: 	

   Along those same lines of thought, it's still not

   clear to me that the owner-operator of a brown-out

   vulnerable instrumentation package is at any serious

   risks for having one or more gizmos reboot after engine

   start . . . yeah . . . we were to worship the oil

   pressure gage . . . I remember reading those words

   in my dad's copy of Sick and Rudder from his flight

   school days in 1946.

In my case, little/no risk if devices are allowed to fully boot or 

re-boot.  Having them re-boot during the boot process can make them 

sick.  I'm not worried about the oil pressure either.

 	  Quote: 	

   But seriously, how many instances of 'failure to

   build pressure' in the first 30 seconds of run

   time were due to lubrication system failure that

   warranted shut-down and investigation?Some airplanes

   I've flow took a minute to develop full oil pressure

   on the gage in very cold weather . . . in spite of

   the fact that nothing was amiss in the engine.

   Architecture should be crafted to optimize system

   performance for all the equipment items needed to

   accomplish the mission. But if some piece of equipment

   fails to meet legacy goals for performance, I'm

   more disposed to put the necessary band-aid on that

   piece of equipment than to take an egg-beater to the

   whole system.

   Bob . . .

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:54 pm Post subject: RV-14

The TCW IPS system is not just a capacitor.  It is a real dc to dc converter designed on purpose to handle very low input voltage, down below 5 volts, and up convert it to a steady 12 volts.  It can do it all day long at its rated output current.   This takes the un-certainty of how long you crank the engine and how much load you actually have on the IPS out of the equation of whether you are going to have a reset.    The other solutions which just try to store some energy in whacking big capacitors lead to a race condition between the stored energy, your connected load and the duration of the low voltage event.    

The IPS system has been written into the install manuals for Garmin's G900 and G3x system as a method for resolving low voltage upset conditions just as Bill described with GRT system. 

Bob Newman

TCW Technologies, LLC

610-928-3420

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 29, 2014, at 7:20 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:

> On 10/24/2014 11:41 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

> 

> 

> At 03:06 PM 10/24/2014, you wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> Bob,

>> 

>> In my view Z13/8 has many advantages, but how would you handle the start-up brown out problem? For example if an EFIS with integral engine monitor is fitted it must be operational during engine start, but is unlikely to endure the start-up low voltage transients. A second alternator seems by far a better mitigation for main alternator failure than a second battery, but I can't see any way around a small additional battery to hold up the power for the EFIS/Engine Monitor (and perhaps main Nav radio/GPS) during engine start.

 Having the engine monitor operational during start is 'nice' and seems like a must, but for me the brownout problem  was for the rest of the EFIS function - flight plans and such - along with  the engine monitor display.  I had this brownout problem with a dual alternator -dual batt Z-14 on my RV10.

> 

>  Brownout resets are not an architecture problem,

>  they're a radio problem. A radio that DOES NOT

>  conform to DO-160 guidelines for graceful recovery

>  after all manner of input power interruptions.

 Well, it's not a 'radio' but the EFIS.  I don't care if the 'radio' gracefully recovers or not from a brownout at start.

 But I do completely agree that it's not an architecture problem, it's a component specific problem.  In my case, the Z-14 architecture 'fits my eye' perfectly.  The brownout problem stemmed from (3) GRT HX EFIS units without on/off switches.  They, along with the G430 that I like to all run before startup were subject to brownout and the subsequent loss of flight plan info and a loonnnng startup for the GRTs.  The fix was TCW's Intelligent Power Stabilizer.  No change in the Z-14 architecture, just some supplemental power stabilization during starts for my GRTs and and the G430.

> 

>  That capability is supposed to be internal to

>  the appliance, not external . . . and for good

>  reason. What's the poor C-172 owner supposed to

>  do when he wants to modernize his avionics but

>  doesn't want to climb the Everest-of-paperwork

>  necessary to modify the ship's certificated

>  electrical system?

> 

>  My work with lithium cells has germinated some

>  ideas for very light, no moving parts, brownout

>  mitigation for appliances that suffer this malady.

>  I'm making some pretty startling discoveries . . .

>  startling because of what the suppliers of lithium

>  products don't choose to tell us for what ever

>  reasons.

 I think TCW's product is just a capacitor but I'm not really knowledgeable.

> 

>  Along those same lines of thought, it's still not

>  clear to me that the owner-operator of a brown-out

>  vulnerable instrumentation package is at any serious

>  risks for having one or more gizmos reboot after engine

>  start . . . yeah . . . we were to worship the oil

>  pressure gage . . . I remember reading those words

>  in my dad's copy of Sick and Rudder from his flight

>  school days in 1946.

 In my case, little/no risk if devices are allowed to fully boot or re-boot.  Having them re-boot during the boot process can make them sick.  I'm not worried about the oil pressure either.

> 

>  But seriously, how many instances of 'failure to

>  build pressure' in the first 30 seconds of run

>  time were due to lubrication system failure that

>  warranted shut-down and investigation?Some airplanes

>  I've flow took a minute to develop full oil pressure

>  on the gage in very cold weather . . . in spite of

>  the fact that nothing was amiss in the engine.

> 

>  Architecture should be crafted to optimize system

>  performance for all the equipment items needed to

>  accomplish the mission. But if some piece of equipment

>  fails to meet legacy goals for performance, I'm

>  more disposed to put the necessary band-aid on that

>  piece of equipment than to take an egg-beater to the

>  whole system.

> 

> 

> 

>  Bob . . .

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> -----

> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:50 am Post subject: RV-14

Having the engine monitor operational during start is 'nice' and seems like a must, but for me the brownout problem  was for the rest of the EFIS function - flight plans and such - along with  the engine monitor display.  I had this brownout problem with a dual alternator -dual batt Z-14 on my RV10.



 >  Brownout resets are not an architecture problem,

 >  they're a radio problem. A radio that DOES NOT

 >  conform to DO-160 guidelines for graceful recovery

 >  after all manner of input power interruptions.



 

 Well, it's not a 'radio' but the EFIS.  I don't care if the 'radio' gracefully

 recovers or not from a brownout at start.



     Too specific on my part . . . sorry. It's an   electro-whizzy. In particular, one that stores   data in non-volatile memory and/or takes a   non-trivial interval to wake-up after power-ON.

 



 In my case, little/no risk if devices are allowed to fully boot or re-boot.  Having them re-boot during the boot process can make them sick.  I'm not worried about the oil pressure either.



     Not sure what you mean by 'sick' . . . other   than loss of data that could/should be in   flash as opposed to ram.





    Bob . . .    [quote][b]

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:42 am Post subject: RV-14

On 10/30/2014 10:49 AM, Robert L.       Nuckolls, III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         

       Well, it's not a 'radio' but the EFIS.  I don't care if the       'radio'       gracefully

       recovers or not from a brownout at start.

       

                  Too specific on my part . . . sorry. It's an                      electro-whizzy. In particular, one that stores                      data in non(?)-volatile memory and/or takes a                      non-trivial interval to wake-up after power-ON.

                       	
     Yes, part of my 'kitchen sink' of electro whizzies.  I knew what you     meant but maybe would should stick to  proper technical terms like     'whizzy' and 'kitchen sink' going forward.

      	  Quote: 	
		  In my case, little/no risk if devices are allowed to       fully boot or       re-boot.  Having them re-boot during the boot process can make       them       sick.  I'm not worried about the oil pressure either.

       

                  Not sure what you mean by 'sick' . . . other                      than loss of data that could/should be in                      flash as opposed to ram.

                       	
     I can't draw a straight line between my need to return a unit to the     manufacturer for ''adjustments' a few years ago and my repeated      re-boots during the boot process.  A manufacturer rep suggested that     it could have caused the problem that required the return but I'm     not sure that's accurate.  

      	  Quote: 	
		                               

                                      

     	
     Bill "very happy with my Z-14, a sink full of whizzies and TCW's     IPS" Watson 

     - Thanks as always Bob!

      [quote][b]

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