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Fwf braded stainless

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rvdave

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 191

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:51 pm Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

Do the braided stainless lines require the red fire sleeve or is the SS braid considered fire sleeve?  Maybe a dumb question-it's been a long day..

_________________
Dave Ford
Cadillac, MI

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

They should have fire sleeve. The braiding is not a fire protection. 



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 29, 2014, at 8:51 PM, rvdave <rv610dave(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Do the braided stainless lines require the red fire sleeve or is the SS braid considered fire sleeve?  Maybe a dumb question-it's been a long day..

 

 --------

 Dave Ford

 RV6 flying

 RV10 building

 Cadillac, MI

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432521#432521

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:11 pm Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

"require" is such a strong word.

I'd put the firesleeve on the SS braided hoses.  Actually, all the 

hoses. The SS braid only slows down the heat deterioration a little .....



Linn



On 10/29/2014 8:51 PM, rvdave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Do the braided stainless lines require the red fire sleeve or is the SS braid considered fire sleeve?  Maybe a dumb question-it's been a long day..



 --------

 Dave Ford

 RV6 flying

 RV10 building

 Cadillac, MI





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432521#432521





 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:18 pm Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

If you have a under cowling fire hot enough to burn through Stainless Steel braiding.. You have BIGGER problems to deal with.. IMHO..

 

 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:30 pm Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

If the stainless was solid, I'd agree, but it's not. The braid is for strength. The fire sleeve is to keep the heat away from the line as long as possible. 



Jesse SaintI-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 29, 2014, at 9:13 PM, Ben <n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com)> wrote:

[quote]If you have a under cowling fire hot enough to burn through Stainless Steel braiding.. You have BIGGER problems to deal with.. IMHO..

 

 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:34 pm Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

The SS braid is there for pressure and       abrasion resistance.  You don't have to burn through the braid       .... just get it hot enough to melt the inner lining.  That delay       with firesleeve may be the difference between having a fire and       feeding it more fuel.  I would want to delay the decision of       whether to burn to death or jump as long as possible.

       Linn

       

       

       On 10/29/2014 9:13 PM, Ben wrote:

     

     [quote]       If you have a under cowling fire hot enough to burn through         Stainless Steel braiding.. You have BIGGER problems to deal         with.. IMHO..

        

        

       Ben Haas

         N801BH

         www.haaspowerair.com

         

         --------

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:32 pm Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

There is no requirement for firesleeve...for years none of Van's supplied hoses had any firesleeve. I guess some of the fuel lines do now. Vans hoses have unprotected SS braid on outside, which is very abrasive to anything it vibrates against. If you haven't already guessed, also the cheapest choice.



However, using firesleeve gives you and the hose inside protection from heat as well ad reducing the fire risk. Best is integral firesleeve hose, but takes a hose shop special equipment to make them, and cost is 10-15% higher than conventional hose with firesleeve

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 5:51 PM, rvdave <rv610dave(at)gmail.com (rv610dave(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "rvdave" <rv610dave(at)gmail.com (rv610dave(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Do the braided stainless lines require the red fire sleeve or is the SS braid considered fire sleeve?  Maybe a dumb question-it's been a long day..

 

 --------

 Dave Ford

 RV6 flying

 RV10 building

 Cadillac, MI

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432521#432521

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 ">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:07 am Post subject: Re: Fwf braded stainless

Ask your DAR... that will be the final decider.

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

Lenny Iszak

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Fwf braded stainless

Here's a great resource I used to get integral firesleeve hoses.



http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/20Engine/hose.html

Lenny

_________________
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:39 am Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

I did that.  Years ago.  Answer was "I don't care".  I suspect that most 

of them don't.

 From observations of inspections on others airplanes, there are DARs 

that 'might' recognize the basic shape, look at the workmanship and sign 

the necessary documents.  Then there are those that have their own 

personal hot buttons ..... things they look for and want to see.



IMHO leaving off the firesleeve is like flying with 1/4 tank of gas.  If 

you ever need it (have a engine compartment fire) you'll wish the 

firesleeve was there.  If you ever run most of that 1/4 tank of gas out 

and are still not on the ground .... you'll wish you had filled the tank up.



My question is "why not use the firesleeve".  Weight and cost are the 

only things I can think of and in the scheme of things .... they're 

negligible.



Now I'll pass on a trick that was taught to me:

Cut the firesleeve to length and insert one end of the hose a little way 

into the firesleeve.

Stick your blow gun into the other end of the firesleeve and inflate 

it.  It'll slide on the hose real easy.

Coat the raw ends of the firesleeve with red high temp silicone to keep 

oil and other liquids out.



I have one of those nifty tools to make clamps out of safety wire and I 

use that.  You can also whip the ends of the firesleeve (look for 

'whipping rope' but be careful ... other kinds of whipping are out there 

 ) and cover with the red silicone.

Linn



On 10/30/2014 8:07 AM, johngoodman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ask your DAR... that will be the final decider.



 --------

 #40572 Phase One complete in 2011





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432538#432538





 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:49 am Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

Sorry .... left out that you need to plug one end of the hose.

Linn

On 10/30/2014 8:37 AM, Linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I did that.  Years ago.  Answer was "I don't care".  I suspect that 

 most of them don't.

 From observations of inspections on others airplanes, there are DARs 

 that 'might' recognize the basic shape, look at the workmanship and 

 sign the necessary documents.  Then there are those that have their 

 own personal hot buttons ..... things they look for and want to see.

 IMHO leaving off the firesleeve is like flying with 1/4 tank of gas.  

 If you ever need it (have a engine compartment fire) you'll wish the 

 firesleeve was there.  If you ever run most of that 1/4 tank of gas 

 out and are still not on the ground .... you'll wish you had filled 

 the tank up.

 My question is "why not use the firesleeve".  Weight and cost are the 

 only things I can think of and in the scheme of things .... they're 

 negligible.

 Now I'll pass on a trick that was taught to me:

 Cut the firesleeve to length and insert one end of the hose a little 

 way into the firesleeve.

 Stick your blow gun into the other end of the firesleeve and inflate 

 it.  It'll slide on the hose real easy.

 Coat the raw ends of the firesleeve with red high temp silicone to 

 keep oil and other liquids out.

 I have one of those nifty tools to make clamps out of safety wire and 

 I use that.  You can also whip the ends of the firesleeve (look for 

 'whipping rope' but be careful ... other kinds of whipping are out 

 there  ) and cover with the red silicone.

 Linn

 On 10/30/2014 8:07 AM, johngoodman wrote:

> 

> <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>

>

> Ask your DAR... that will be the final decider.

>

> --------

> #40572 Phase One complete in 2011

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432538#432538

>

>

> -----

> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:13 am Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

While I suppose a DAR could refuse to approve an aircraft that didn't 

meet his standards,

they are not in the business of reg writing. If they start requiring 

stuff that isn't in regs, they will find their clientele diminished.

While firesleeve hoses in the engine compartment is a "best practice", 

I've seen nothing to make it a requirement.

I can assure you that the hoses Van's supplied for my FWF kit are not 

firesleeved, neither oil nor fuel. They are the straight SS braided 

hoses. Van's isn't in the habit of supplying stuff that DARs will balk 

at approving.



On 10/30/2014 5:07 AM, johngoodman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ask your DAR... that will be the final decider.



 --------

 #40572 Phase One complete in 2011





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432538#432538

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:25 am Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

Unfortunately Van's leaves you with the options of knowing upfront that 

some of their hoses are not firesleeved(used to be all).

If you know that and delete them from your FWF kit, the cost difference 

will be small. However, if you believed they had already changed to 

firesleeved hoses when they had not, for example was the case when I 

ordered, then I have choice of sending them back for diminished refund, 

or just buying the hoses desired or using what came in the kit. Just one 

of many cases where you can spend time, energy and money changing the 

kit or you can proceed towards getting the kit built. So far, in 40 yrs, 

I have been fortunate enough to catch leaks before flight and have not 

had any engine fire beyond a cold start flooded poof that was contained 

by continued cranking. My last engine overhaul on my certified Mooney 

saw all integral firesleeve hoses installed, and I like them a lot.



On 10/30/2014 5:37 AM, Linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 My question is "why not use the firesleeve".  Weight and cost are the 

 only things I can think of and in the scheme of things .... they're 

 negligible.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

I didn't have the option of adding/deleting since I bought my kit from 

another builder. However, I think originally the raw SS hoses was a way 

to keep the costs down and give builders the option of using firesleeve

(http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/catalog/appages/stratofs.php?clickkey=4409 

.... there are others)

or not.  The integral firesleeve (IMHO) makes the hose stiffer so I like 

the stratoflex better anyway.  I also make my own hoses (that didn't 

come in the kit) so the integral firesleeve isn't practical for them.

Also, I cut the Vans hose from pump to servo to insert my fuel flow 

sender .... and the liner was a purplish teflon that wasn't the same 

size as the white.  The fittings were crimped on and the standard JIC 

fittings wouldn't fit.  My local hydraulics place couldn't make anything 

fit either.

BTW, that hose had the stratoflex firesleeve.

Linn

On 10/30/2014 10:22 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Unfortunately Van's leaves you with the options of knowing upfront 

 that some of their hoses are not firesleeved(used to be all).

 If you know that and delete them from your FWF kit, the cost 

 difference will be small. However, if you believed they had already 

 changed to firesleeved hoses when they had not, for example was the 

 case when I ordered, then I have choice of sending them back for 

 diminished refund, or just buying the hoses desired or using what came 

 in the kit. Just one of many cases where you can spend time, energy 

 and money changing the kit or you can proceed towards getting the kit 

 built. So far, in 40 yrs, I have been fortunate enough to catch leaks 

 before flight and have not had any engine fire beyond a cold start 

 flooded poof that was contained by continued cranking. My last engine 

 overhaul on my certified Mooney saw all integral firesleeve hoses 

 installed, and I like them a lot.

 On 10/30/2014 5:37 AM, Linn Walters wrote:

> 

> My question is "why not use the firesleeve".  Weight and cost are the 

> only things I can think of and in the scheme of things .... they're 

> negligible.

>

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: Fwf braded stainless

I disagree about integral firesleeve being stiffer. It is if anything more flexible than standard hose, especially after the firesleeve is installed, and it is smaller diameter which makes a cleaner fit. Just my experience in 30 yrs of working on planes.

On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)>

 

 I didn't have the option of adding/deleting since I bought my kit from another builder. However, I think originally the raw SS hoses was a way to keep the costs down and give builders the option of using firesleeve

 (http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/catalog/appages/stratofs.php?clickkey=4409 ..... there are others)

 or not.  The integral firesleeve (IMHO) makes the hose stiffer so I like the stratoflex better anyway.  I also make my own hoses (that didn't come in the kit) so the integral firesleeve isn't practical for them.

 Also, I cut the Vans hose from pump to servo to insert my fuel flow sender ... and the liner was a purplish teflon that wasn't the same size as the white.  The fittings were crimped on and the standard JIC fittings wouldn't fit.  My local hydraulics place couldn't make anything fit either.

 BTW, that hose had the stratoflex firesleeve.

 Linn

 

 

 On 10/30/2014 10:22 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 

 Unfortunately Van's leaves you with the options of knowing upfront that some of their hoses are not firesleeved(used to be all).

 If you know that and delete them from your FWF kit, the cost difference will be small. However, if you believed they had already changed to firesleeved hoses when they had not, for example was the case when I ordered, then I have choice of sending them back for diminished refund, or just buying the hoses desired or using what came in the kit. Just one of many cases where you can spend time, energy and money changing the kit or you can proceed towards getting the kit built. So far, in 40 yrs, I have been fortunate enough to catch leaks before flight and have not had any engine fire beyond a cold start flooded poof that was contained by continued cranking. My last engine overhaul on my certified Mooney saw all integral firesleeve hoses installed, and I like them a lot.

 

 On 10/30/2014 5:37 AM, Linn Walters wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)>

 

 

 My question is "why not use the firesleeve".  Weight and cost are the only things I can think of and in the scheme of things .... they're negligible.

 

 

 

 	
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 

 

 	
 

 

 ====================================

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ====================================

 ">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 



[b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

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