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rmhou(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:48 pm Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm
I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com:
"One of the common problems with classic 911’s can be a plume of oil smoke from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on start up.The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the orientation of the valve when installing."
What do you think?
[quote][b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:48 am Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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Robin,
I think before anyone could even make an educated guess, they would have to see the design and understand the theory of operation of such a device before they could even begin to consider whether it could be installed on any kind of aircraft.
Mark
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:11 am Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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Robin,
There is already a spring check valve in the system.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM
To: Yak-List Digest Server
Subject: Oil Tank Check Valve
http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm
I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com:
"One of the common problems with classic 911’s can be a plume of oil smoke from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on start up.
The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the orientation of the valve when installing."
What do you think?
0123456789012345678
[quote][b]
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve only masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in the Red Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill overhaul your oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil pump.
Dennis
From: Gill Gutierrez <gill.g(at)gpimail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Oil Tank Check Valve
Robin,
There is already a spring check valve in the system.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM
To: Yak-List Digest Server
Subject: Oil Tank Check Valve
http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm
I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com:
"One of the common problems with classic 911’s can be a plume of oil smoke from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on start up.
The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the orientation of the valve when installing."
What do you think?
0123456789012345678
[quote][b]www.aeroelectric.com
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rmhou(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:07 am Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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You are all correct.
Plus, this valve is actually very expensive. There are proven devices out there for about the same cost.
Thanks for your comments.
On Friday, November 7, 2014 9:16 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve only masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in the Red Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill overhaul your oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil pump.
Dennis
From: Gill Gutierrez <gill.g(at)gpimail.com> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Oil Tank Check Valve
#yiv3180746996 #yiv3180746996 -- filtered {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} #yiv3180746996 filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} #yiv3180746996 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv3180746996 filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #yiv3180746996 filtered {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv3180746996 filtered {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #yiv3180746996 p.yiv3180746996MsoNormal, #yiv3180746996 li.yiv3180746996MsoNormal, #yiv3180746996 div.yiv3180746996MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv3180746996 a:link, #yiv3180746996 span.yiv3180746996MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv3180746996 a:visited, #yiv3180746996 span.yiv3180746996MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv3180746996 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;} #yiv3180746996 span.yiv3180746996HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;} #yiv3180746996 span.yiv3180746996EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv3180746996 .yiv3180746996MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} #yiv3180746996 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv3180746996 div.yiv3180746996WordSection1 {} #yiv3180746996 Robin,
There is already a spring check valve in the system.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin HouSent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PMTo: Yak-List Digest ServerSubject: Oil Tank Check Valve
http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm
I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com:
"One of the common problems with classic 911’s can be a plume of oil smoke from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on start up.The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the orientation of the valve when installing."
What do you think?
0123456789012345678
9
[quote][b]www.aeroelectric.com
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:30 pm Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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Well, I wonder about that.
Having lived with P&W radials for about 50 years and comparing the incidence of hydraulic lock between P&W and the Ivchenko series engines I would guess the ratio is somewhere around 1/100.
A major design difference lies in the location of the static oil flow check valve. In P&W engines this valve is NOT integral to the oil pump. It is a relatively large, lightly spring loaded, poppet style valve positioned immediately downstream of the oil pressure outlet. It is readily removable for inspection.
With this installation it does not matter how the leakage oil gets through the static pump (and it does!) it is stopped at that point. Of course if that valve develops a leak hydraulic lock can be the result and it has happened but is a pretty rare occurrence. Not the case with the M14 etc. it is almost to be expected at some time in the life of the engine.
For what it’s worth I would suggest that the valve in the Ivchenko series is incapable of preventing leakage flow through the pump in the static condition and I think history has proved me correct.
Cheers;
Walt
From: A. Dennis Savarese (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:16 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Oil Tank Check Valve
Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve only masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in the Red Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill overhaul your oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil pump.
Dennis
From: Gill Gutierrez <gill.g(at)gpimail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Oil Tank Check Valve
Robin,
There is already a spring check valve in the system.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM
To: Yak-List Digest Server
Subject: Oil Tank Check Valve
http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm
I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com:
"One of the common problems with classic 911’s can be a plume of oil smoke from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on start up.
The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the orientation of the valve when installing."
What do you think?
0123456789012345678
9
0
[quote][b]
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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Another option is to open the sump drain and drain the oil out of the sump into a clean gas can . That prevents sump from over flowing into the lower three cylinders. If your plan is going to set for a while that is one way to prevent hydraulic lock.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 7, 2014, at 11:16 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote]Gill is 100% correct. Any external shut off valve or additional check valve only masks the root of the problem, which as Jill has so clearly stated in the Red Star magazine, internally in the oil pump itself. Have Jill overhaul your oil pump and refurbish the internal shut off valve in the oil pump.
Dennis
From: Gill Gutierrez <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Oil Tank Check Valve
Robin,
There is already a spring check valve in the system.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Robin Hou
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 3:48 PM
To: Yak-List Digest Server
Subject: Oil Tank Check Valve
http://www.rothsport.com/Products/Engine/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves/Oil-Inlet-Check-Valves.htm
I am wondering if this check valve will work between our tank and engine to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock? It is designed for Porsche air cool 911 engine which has a dry sump oil system. Here is a description of how this valve works from www.pelicanparts.com:
"One of the common problems with classic 911’s can be a plume of oil smoke from your exhaust on start up. This is especially true for cars that do not get driven regularly or have sat for a while. While this is not harmful to the engine if after starting you get the engine up to operating temperature it can be quite embarrassing. There is nothing worse than having all eyes on you as you step into your 911 only to have a gigantic smoke screen come from the exhaust on start up.
The majority of this smoke on startup comes from oil from the oil tank migrating back into the motor. Rothsport has come up with an ingenuous solution to this problem by designing an oil inlet check valve that restricts the flow of oil back into the motor and opens instantly on start up. Installation is quick and easy and a perfect solution for cars that sit for long periods of time. Note; the valve is clearly marked with an engine side and a tank side. Failure to install the check valve in the right orientation will lead to oil starvation and catastrophic damage to your engine. Please make sure to read all the instructions and double check the orientation of the valve when installing."
What do you think?
0123456789012345678
9
0
[b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:37 am Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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I agree with Walt on this one.
The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and especially after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems much better to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve simply because there is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates, etc. Without knowing the design parameters, it would be simply crazy to stick that device into the main oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial aircraft engine.
Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring loaded ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers of the YAK List have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the oil pump off, have sent it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and returned to service? Of those that have, how many have come on the Yak List and reported that it fixed the problem perfectly, that no more oil gets into the cylinders and hydraulic lock has now been eliminated as a problem? AND FOR HOW LONG?
Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or feedback -- positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're out there, please speak up.
What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken alternative measures, some of which might be considered to be "masking the root of the problem" and some not. I mean, if you put something additional in place that stops oil flow through the pump from the oil tank, you are not masking the problem, you are stopping the problem. I believe in being careful before modifying "original designs", but they are not sacrosanct otherwise I would not be running those most excellent automobile plugs and wires Dennis came up with!
I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain fitting that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out and then be poured right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in my case, once oil comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just some paranoia on my part, I am sure! 
I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the inherent danger of what happens when you forget to turn them back on before starting. And that includes those that have micro-switch interlocks on the start switch/button.
So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are really not far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but never-the-less a better designed part that does the same job as the one in the internal oil pump is SUPPOSED to do right now. If for nothing else, the original valve is in an inaccessible location, and taking oil pumps on and off on a regular basis is not high on my list of good things to do either.
So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external valve, such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt?
It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK & N66PW
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:08 am Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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I've connected permanently a hose to the reservoir, with a fast coupling
connection at the lower end.
It is reachable at the left side and I just connect (fast coupling from
high pressure hydraulics, aviation quality) another hose to a cannister.
So at the end of each flight, I immediately drain the oil from the main
reservoir.
Not difficult, it takes a few seconds to plug in the second hose and to
open the tap (even without lifting the engine cowling).
Easy system, not expensive, no modification to the original.
Jan
Yak 50 F-AZUK
On 10/11/14 16:37, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
| Quote: |
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
I agree with Walt on this one.
The originally designed Russian check valve does not work very well, and
especially after it gets some operating time on it. The P&W method seems
much better to me. I did not comment on the Porsche 911 check valve
simply because there is no data on its parameters. Maximum flow rates,
etc. Without knowing the design parameters, it would be simply crazy to
stick that device into the main oil supply line of a 9 cylinder radial
aircraft engine.
Dennis and Gill are of course both correct.... there is indeed a spring
loaded ball check valve in the oil pump. I am curious how many readers
of the YAK List have tried the method described. I.E. Have taken the
oil pump off, have sent it to Jill & M-14P.com, had it refurbished and
returned to service? Of those that have, how many have come on the Yak
List and reported that it fixed the problem perfectly, that no more oil
gets into the cylinders and hydraulic lock has now been eliminated as a
problem? AND FOR HOW LONG?
Possibly I missed the memo, but I have not seen any such reports, or
feedback -- positive or negative -- from any folks at all. So if you're
out there, please speak up.
What I have seen is a ton of people (me included) that have taken
alternative measures, some of which might be considered to be "masking
the root of the problem" and some not. I mean, if you put something
additional in place that stops oil flow through the pump from the oil
tank, you are not masking the problem, you are stopping the problem. I
believe in being careful before modifying "original designs", but they
are not sacrosanct otherwise I would not be running those most excellent
automobile plugs and wires Dennis came up with!
I have seen Doc's idea used a lot... a hose attached to the sump drain
fitting that is opened after flight, allowing the oil to drain right out
and then be poured right back into the engine. Color me strange, but in
my case, once oil comes out of the engine, I never pour it back in. Just
some paranoia on my part, I am sure!
I have also seen Oil Shutoff Valves used QUITE a bit, even with the
inherent danger of what happens when you forget to turn them back on
before starting. And that includes those that have micro-switch
interlocks on the start switch/button.
So, really when it comes right down to it, Robin Hou's thoughts are
really not far off the mark! Maybe not a Porsche 911 part, but
never-the-less a better designed part that does the same job as the one
in the internal oil pump is SUPPOSED to do right now. If for nothing
else, the original valve is in an inaccessible location, and taking oil
pumps on and off on a regular basis is not high on my list of good things
to do either.
So ... bottom line..... what's wrong with the idea of adding an external
valve, such as are used on P&W engines described by Walt?
It dawns on me that it actually is a very good idea.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK & N66PW
|
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:49 am Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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Mark;
Sounds like I may have screwed up my description of the P&W valve. The
valve is external to the oil pump (unlike the Russian design) but is not
external to the engine! It is actually located in the pressure screen
housing and may be removed for inspection whenever the screen is removed.
Walt
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: Oil Tank Check Valve |
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OH!
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