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Fuel Sender Continued

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Michael Valentine

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 108

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

So I have my hole for the sender (older style sender - top mount).

And, thanks to earlier comments from the group, I think I know how

much I can shave off to make it fit under the skin.



Now, how on earth do I get the backing plate in there?  As you can

see from the pictures, it ain't goin' through that hole.  I see from

the photo guide that the new senders have split rings that can slide

in.  Can I cut this one?  Or, should I drop it through the gas cap and

fish it out.  Of course, if I do that, then it is not coming back out

later (at least not easily or close thereto) unless I remove the tank.



Anyone else find a good solution?



Thanks, Michael Valentine

Still almost done with the first wing.

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

Hi Michael,



It is a little tricky to get the plate in the tank, but not rocket science.



First you cut a hole where you want to install the sender.  I don't 

have the size in front of me, but it is just about the same as the 

distance from the inner part of the notch in the ring and the 

opposite side.  You start by putting one side of the notch into the 

hole and then work the ring around the circle sliding the edge under 

the hole in the tank.  When you are done all you need to do is mount 

all the screws (leaving one without the paper washer or perhaps using 

copper washers) with the gasket on the top side of the hole between 

the sender plate and the gas tank.



You will find this is pretty easy to do with two of the screws just 

threaded through the inner plate.  If you choose the wrong ones then 

you won't be able to complete putting the ring through the 

hole.  Also, take a good look at the holes in the base plate and the 

ring.  They only line up one way.



Good luck,



Paul

XL fuselage

At 07:38 PM 6/26/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  So I have my hole for the sender (older style sender - top mount).

And, thanks to earlier comments from the group, I think I know how

much I can shave off to make it fit under the skin.



Now, how on earth do I get the backing plate in there?  As you can

see from the pictures, it ain't goin' through that hole.  I see from

the photo guide that the new senders have split rings that can slide

in.  Can I cut this one?  Or, should I drop it through the gas cap and

fish it out.  Of course, if I do that, then it is not coming back out

later (at least not easily or close thereto) unless I remove the tank.



Anyone else find a good solution?



Thanks, Michael Valentine

Still almost done with the first wing.

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

Hi Michael,



Let me add a bit to what  Paul told you (it's fresh in mind because I just 

did it). The hole diameter called for is 59 mm. Don't make it any bigger 

than that because there is very little of the inner ring overlapping the 

edge at that diameter. If you open it much bigger, you won't have much of 

the edge to squeeze on with the inner ring.



Also, you really only need to start one screw through the outer plate, 

rubber gasket, and into the threads of the inner ring... and remember, like 

Paul said, the holes will only line up one way. With the long screw 

positioned away from the notch (not right next to it.. don't ask why, just 

trust me) slip the inner ring into the hole with the notch against one edge. 

If you can't wiggle it through or even lightly force it through the hole, 

take it out and conservatively sand two opposing parts of the hole with 

emery cloth to make it oblong a little bit. On the next try make sure the 

notch is positioned at one of the two areas you sanded. Repeat until you can 

just barely make it squeeze through.



Once the inner ring is inside the tank, thread the other screws and tighten. 

You may have to fish around for the first one or two; after that they are 

easy to start. For final installation you may want to put a little bit of 

Peramtex or some other gas proof sealer between the rubber gasket and the 

tank. Don't glob it on; the excess will be squished inside the tank where it 

is unsupported and will break off later due to age and vibration. Junk like 

that will clog your finger screen.



Another hint; use a maker pen to indicate the orientation of the outer plate 

so you don't point it in the wrong direction.



Ed Moody II

Rayne, LA

601XL / wings

 	  Quote: 	
		   Now, how on earth do I get the backing plate in there?  As you can

 see from the pictures, it ain't goin' through that hole.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Anyone else find a good solution?

601zv(at)ritternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:22 am Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

I got mine in by grinding them down a bit on the outside opposite the 

cutout, but your picture makes that look impossible. Is it some sort of 

optical illusion or is the hole a lot smaller than the inside diameter of 

the backing plate?  As for the top, the way my fit it seems impossible to 

grind enough off the top to fit below the skin so I'm planning some domed or 

bubbled cover plates as others have done..

---

Michael Valentine

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 108

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

Thanks for the quick responses.  The sender instructions I have call for the hole to be (I believe without having it in front of me) much less than 59mm - I am remembering 48mm or 43mm - either way it is the same diameter as the inner circle of the ring.  I understand the principle of the notch in the ring, but according to the instructions I have (and think I have followed), the hole is still too small.  Note here that this is a sender sent with a wing kit in 2003 - I know from the pictures that it is not exactly the same as those used today, but I don't know all the differences.

 

 So, one solution is to enlarge the hole until I can use the notch in the side of the ring to slide it in.  That makes sense to me even though I don't believe it is how my sender instructions read.

 

 If that is the case, is there any reason I can't just cut a notch in the side of the hole instead of enlarging the entire hole?  Sort of an abrubt oblong!  What about my other idea of cutting a notch clear through the ring.  Then I could slide the skin through notch, lower the ring in, and slide it back off the skin inside.  From the new photo guide it appears that the new ring is split and a similar technique is used - I can't imagine that a 2mm notch in the ring is going to cause problems securely clamping the gasket on the other side.  Thoughts or concerns with this solution.  (I continue to ask about this possibility because it seems to be much easier than enlarging the entire hole.  Going back with a flycutter by hand after I have removed the center of the hole does not usually produce very clean results, which I obviously need here!)

 

 Thanks again for the help.  Nice to have people like Ed at a very similar building stage!

 

 Michael

 



On 6/27/06, Edward Moody II <dredmoody(at)cox.net  (dredmoody(at)cox.net)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" <  dredmoody(at)cox.net (dredmoody(at)cox.net)>



Hi Michael,



Let me add a bit to what  Paul told you (it's fresh in mind because I just

did it). The hole diameter called for is 59 mm. Don't make it any bigger

than that because there is very little of the inner ring overlapping the 

edge at that diameter. If you open it much bigger, you won't have much of

the edge to squeeze on with the inner ring.

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

I don't know about the approach you are considering.  I know the one 

with the proper sized hole works fine.  It both allows the ring to be 

inserted in the tank and allows for good clamping of the ring for 

final installation.



One thing to keep in mind - if you have problems with the sender 

installation you have to remove your leading edge skin to get to it 

for repairs.



I don't think the fly-cutter is the right way to make this hole and 

it certainly won't work to enlarge it.  I use a round thin plywood 

pattern made the size I want the hole.  I then mark the final hole 

size with felt tip and cut the hole with a combination of snips and 

files.  I have tried to explain this approach before and got flamed 

and called a "Kit builder" in the past.  Still, I think it is the 

quickest and easiest way to make a hole in sheet aluminum.  In your 

case, if you mark the final hole you can probably cut the majority of 

the waste metal away in about one minute and file the rest in another 

5 or 10 minutes.



Your approach of cutting all the way through the ring sounds 

interesting, but I think you will find you need some pretty heavy 

tools to cut through that heavy gauge steel.  Then you have to figure 

out the impact of having the ring cut in the final position.



Good luck,



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive



At 06:26 AM 6/27/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks for the quick responses.  The sender instructions I have call 

for the hole to be (I believe without having it in front of me) much 

less than 59mm - I am remembering 48mm or 43mm - either way it is 

the same diameter as the inner circle of the ring.  I understand the 

principle of the notch in the ring, but according to the 

instructions I have (and think I have followed), the hole is still 

too small.  Note here that this is a sender sent with a wing kit in 

2003 - I know from the pictures that it is not exactly the same as 

those used today, but I don't know all the differences.



So, one solution is to enlarge the hole until I can use the notch in 

the side of the ring to slide it in.  That makes sense to me even 

though I don't believe it is how my sender instructions read.



If that is the case, is there any reason I can't just cut a notch in 

the side of the hole instead of enlarging the entire hole?  Sort of 

an abrubt oblong!  What about my other idea of cutting a notch clear 

through the ring.  Then I could slide the skin through notch, lower 

the ring in, and slide it back off the skin inside.  From the new 

photo guide it appears that the new ring is split and a similar 

technique is used - I can't imagine that a 2mm notch in the ring is 

going to cause problems securely clamping the gasket on the other 

side.  Thoughts or concerns with this solution.  (I continue to ask 

about this possibility because it seems to be much easier than 

enlarging the entire hole.  Going back with a flycutter by hand 

after I have removed the center of the hole does not usually produce 

very clean results, which I obviously need here!)



Thanks again for the help.  Nice to have people like Ed at a very 

similar building stage!



Michael

pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

A fly cutter works fine.  Just be precise.



Phil Maxson

601XL/Corvair

Northwest New Jersey

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: Fuel Sender Continued


<p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net>



<<SNIP>>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  I don't think the fly-cutter is the right way to make this hole and it 

certainly won't work to enlarge it.


	


<<SNIP>>

randy(at)shadycreekoutlaw
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

Take a look at how Scott Laughlin cut the hole in his tank, and prepared the 

ring:

http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_5_03_SenderParts.JPG



Thanks,



Randy

XL Wings - Plans Only

Do Not Archive

---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

Thanks for the kind words Michael. You're right about the difficulty with a hole saw or fly cutter after the original hole is done. The only salvation I've found is to back the original hole with plywood clamped firmly in place. I don't see how you could do that on the tank except maybe to clamp a piece of plexiglas all the way from the inboard to the outboard tank edges. Then you could see through to align a hole saw, not the fly cutter. Cutting through the plastic first make a "collar" to keep the hole saw concentric on the metal.



Better yet, I like your idea of cutting a slot through the inner ring. A hacksaw blade cut is thicker than the tank skin and wouldn't compromise the rubber gasket pressure on the outside of the tank. Probably the best solution in this case.



Good luck, 



Ed

---- Michael Valentine <mgvalentine(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks for the quick responses.   

 So, one solution is to enlarge the hole until I can use the notch in the

 side of the ring to slide it in.  That makes sense to me even though I don't

 believe it is how my sender instructions read.

 

 If that is the case, is there any reason I can't just cut a notch in the

 side of the hole instead of enlarging the entire hole?  Sort of an abrubt

 oblong!  What about my other idea of cutting a notch clear through the

 ring.

601zv(at)ritternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

DITTO! Flycutter works great for me. But unless the peice is jigged up in 

drill press I turn by hand. Takes just a minute or two for nice clean hole 

with smooth sanded edge.

---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

You may have to cut two slots opposite each other to make sure the  

slots are covered by the gasket.



If I recall correctly, on mine the instructions called for the hole  

to be the same diameter as the outer diameter of the ring of screw  

holes in the plate. Then you could assemble the sender with two long  

screws threaded a couple of turns into the ring and maneuver the  

whole assembly into the hole and install the rest of the screws. This  

would be much easier than inserting the ring and holding it in place  

with one hand while holding the gasket and sender with another hand  

while trying to thread a screw into the holes with a third hand. Only  

the outer edge of the ring and sender plate clamp the tank opening  

and you don't have to cut individual holes for each of the mounting  

screws.



Since you already have a hole cut, if you go this route you'll either  

have to clamp everything up and use a fly cutter in a drill press or  

mark the new hole size and trim out close to it with snips and finish  

off with a half round file.



I also made an access hole in the nose skin above the sender with a  

cover held in place by screws to enable easy repair or replacement of  

the sender later on. My sender is in the top of the tank.



On Jun 27, 2006, at 9:26 AM, Michael Valentine wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 So, one solution is to enlarge the hole until I can use the notch  

 in the side of the ring to slide it in.  That makes sense to me  

 even though I don't believe it is how my sender instructions read.



 If that is the case, is there any reason I can't just cut a notch  

 in the side of the hole instead of enlarging the entire hole?  Sort  

 of an abrubt oblong!  What about my other idea of cutting a notch  

 clear through the ring.  Then I could slide the skin through notch,  

 lower the ring in, and slide it back off the skin

 Michael

 On 6/27/06, Edward Moody II <dredmoody(at)cox.net > wrote: --> Zenith- 

 List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" < dredmoody(at)cox.net>



 Hi Michael,



 Let me add a bit to what  Paul told you (it's fresh in mind because  

 I just

 did it). The hole diameter called for is 59 mm. Don't make it any  

 bigger

 than that because there is very little of the inner ring  

 overlapping the

 edge at that diameter. If you open it much bigger, you won't have  

 much of

 the edge to squeeze on with the inner ring.


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Jay Herron

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 21

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Sender Continued

The VDO senders that I installed in my 801 called for the 59mm hole in the tank.  No modifications neccessary.



However, I bought another VDO sender (same part number) from Summit Racing for another project.  It came with a poorly photocopied instruction and called for a 43 mm hole in the tank.  There was no date on either instruction so I am not sure which one was older.  I would go with the 59mm hole as it worked for me.  Or call VDO and check with them.  I can scan my original instructions if you would like to see.

w1mdi(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: Fuel Sender Continued

Michael



After much painful contemplation, I installed the backing rings in holes 

with the same ID as the ring by cutting a small gap in the ring and 

drilling the mounting holes so the gap was at the bottom. I then laced a 

piece of safety wire through two holes in the ring opposite the gap, 

fished the ends through the corresponding holes in the tank from the 

inside with a pair of needle nose pliers and then inserted the ring in 

the tank. I pulled the ring up tight on the inside with the safety wire, 

passed it through the corresponding holes in the sender flange and 

gasket and then caught the first couple of bolts. With these in place, I 

could remove the wire and finish bolting.



Winston Ellis

701/Suzuki

Bryan Martin wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>



 You may have to cut two slots opposite each other to make sure the  

 slots are covered by the gasket.



 If I recall correctly, on mine the instructions called for the hole  

 to be the same diameter as the outer diameter of the ring of screw  

 holes in the plate. Then you could assemble the sender with two long  

 screws threaded a couple of turns into the ring ....

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