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Acceptable runway length?

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Rick Moss

Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 96

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:40 am Post subject: Acceptable runway length?

Hi all,



I'm new to the Europa, and trying to get to grips with what constitutes an acceptable runway length, having come to the conclusion that the quoted 600' is somewhat optimistic! (although perhaps achievable on tarmac with a very healthy pull at Vs+1kt?).



I'm flying from an undulating 500m grass strip at 1000'. Every flight thus far has been made with a 90° crosswind. At one end of my strip is a 40' obstacle.



My Europa is an XS with a 912S and Airmaster CS prop. The strip drains well, but as winter approaches it will inevitably get soft.



In terms of landing, I have never used more than around 300m when approaching at 63kts. On takeoff, it seems to use 300m+ to lift off and then accelerate in ground effect to climb away (at a sprightly 1200 fpm at 75kts).



What sort of runway legth do you guys look for? What is your personal minima?

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dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:04 am Post subject: Acceptable runway length?

Hi Rick,



I operate, along with 3 other Europa's from a UK grass aerodrome which certainly gets wet in the winter, in fact regularly going under 12" of water. 2 of the Europa's are Tri-gear, the others mono and all except one use a 912S with CS/variable props.



We have one runway of 750 Mtrs and another of 470 Mtrs with trees on each end. We regularly use both runways all year. On the longer runway we have one taxiway from the hangars which is 220 Mtrs from the end of the runway and when using that runway all are always airborne before the taxiway (so 200 Mtrs or less ground roll).



Equally, when landing, if we get it right (NOT ALWAYS) some of us can turn off at the taxiway (so again less than 200mtrs).



Dave Watts

G-BXDY



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 10 Nov 2014, at 17:41, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi all,

 

 I'm new to the Europa, and trying to get to grips with what constitutes an acceptable runway length, having come to the conclusion that the quoted 600' is somewhat optimistic! (although perhaps achievable on tarmac with a very healthy pull at Vs+1kt?).

 

 I'm flying from an undulating 500m grass strip at 1000'. Every flight thus far has been made with a 90° crosswind. At one end of my strip is a 40' obstacle.

 

 My Europa is an XS with a 912S and Airmaster CS prop. The strip drains well, but as winter approaches it will inevitably get soft.

 

 In terms of landing, I have never used more than around 300m when approaching at 63kts. On takeoff, it seems to use 300m+ to lift off and then accelerate in ground effect to climb away (at a sprightly 1200 fpm at 75kts).

 

 What sort of runway legth do you guys look for? What is your personal minima?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433341#433341

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pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: Acceptable runway length?

Hi Rick



What sort of rpm are you getting on the roll?  300 m+ sounds a bit long 

to me for a 912s.  I only get near that on a hot day at max weight with 

a 912ul (80hp).



Pete

G-RMAC #109



On 10/11/14 17:41, Rick Moss wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi all,



 I'm new to the Europa, and trying to get to grips with what constitutes an acceptable runway length, having come to the conclusion that the quoted 600' is somewhat optimistic! (although perhaps achievable on tarmac with a very healthy pull at Vs+1kt?).



 I'm flying from an undulating 500m grass strip at 1000'. Every flight thus far has been made with a 90° crosswind. At one end of my strip is a 40' obstacle.



 My Europa is an XS with a 912S and Airmaster CS prop. The strip drains well, but as winter approaches it will inevitably get soft.



 In terms of landing, I have never used more than around 300m when approaching at 63kts. On takeoff, it seems to use 300m+ to lift off and then accelerate in ground effect to climb away (at a sprightly 1200 fpm at 75kts).



 What sort of runway legth do you guys look for? What is your personal minima?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433341#433341

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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Rick Moss

Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 96

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Acceptable runway length?

Hi Pete:



I'm running the Constant Speed Unit set to 5700rpm on takeoff, and holding a little aft pressure on the stick; it lifts off around 50-55kts ias with half flap.

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dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject: Acceptable runway length?

Rick,



I've only got 40 hours on the Tri-gear Europa (1,800 on the Mono-wheel) but it sounds to me like you need to hold a bit more aft pressure on the stick. I have found that the Tri-gear leaves the ground at 45 or even as low as 40, even on grass, depending on how close cut it is. You really need to make sure the nose wheel is off the ground as much as possible as it causes tremendous drag when on grass, to the extent that if the grass is long enough and wet enough you won't even get off. 



Dave Watts

G-BXDY



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 10 Nov 2014, at 21:22, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Pete:

 

 I'm running the Constant Speed Unit set to 5700rpm on takeoff, and holding a little aft pressure on the stick; it lifts off around 50-55kts ias with half flap.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433353#433353

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pmorgans

Joined: 02 May 2014
Posts: 11
Location: West Wales

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Acceptable runway length?

Hi Everybody,

I'm relatively low hours (30) on an XS Trigear with 912s and Airmaster CS. Have stuck with the 17.5 degree book setting so far; which seems 'draggy', even solo on tarmac. Does anyone have optimum settings for different loadings?



Thanks

Peter Morgans

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pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:37 pm Post subject: Acceptable runway length?

Hi Rick



Sorry I missed the tri gear bit!  Mine is mono your small wheels will be 

a bit more draggy.  Revs sound ok.  Mine is variable pitch but no CSU, 

so set for 5,600 static which gives me about 5,700 on the roll and 5,800 

by about 70 kts.



Regards



Pete

On 10/11/14 21:22, Rick Moss wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Pete:



 I'm running the Constant Speed Unit set to 5700rpm on takeoff, and holding a little aft pressure on the stick; it lifts off around 50-55kts ias with half flap.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433353#433353

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Acceptable runway length?

I have a very similar setup

912s trigger with airmaster/warpdrive. My field is 900' AGL and is fairly

rough grass, 2400' with obstacles at the ends. The key ingredient you

left out was takeoff weight. Mine is 936 lbs empty which is middling light for

american Trigears. UK Europas are almost always lighter.

You should raise the nose about 45 its, then let it fly off. I use 65 kts as

my target speed on final, then 50-55 its over the "fence."

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Ira N224XS

Rick Moss

Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 96

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Acceptable runway length?

My Europa is pretty light at 874lbs; I'm comfortably within 1300lbs during most flights.



I'm impressed with your strip at 900' agl....mines firmly at ground level 



Thanks for the advice; will go experiment when weather and free time coincide!

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