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Kelvin Weston
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Hampshire, UK
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 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Hi All
There is no mention in the Europa build manual of any requirement for electrical bonding.
I assume therefore, that there is no need for electrical bonding of the various metal parts bolted to the airframe, ie control rods, brackets, etc.
But what have others done?
Obviously there is a requirement on a composite airframe for an earth return (power) from the various electrical bits and I know there has been much discussion on this forum regarding avionics earths, earth loops and power / signal returns to avoid noise and interference. But what about electrical bonding?
Has anyone felt the need to bond fuel fittings for example?
I know I’m opening a can of worms here, but hey! It’s a discussion forum after all!
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Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv@kdweston.co.uk |
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graeme bird
Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Electrical bonding |
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Bonding indeed, pointless I would think, nice lightening collectors in the wings and fuselage to convey to the control stick , but then unless you have one hand on the ground you are probably OK. 
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Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk |
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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When I was contemplating flying to Oz I did my best to research lightning strikes on composite aircraft, finding accounts of several aircraft being struck with damage varying from just a few instruments fried to wings exploded and control systems welded. Getting authoritive advice on preventive measures proved difficult or impossible, but I came to the following conclusions:
1. Best to steer well clear of Cu-nims
2. If you can't (& travelling through S. E. Asia it is near impossible) then putting in a system to conduct strikes from wingtip to wing tip & nose to tail without too much damage is worthwhile. I had planned to put expanded aluminium mesh in the aileron & flap close outs, connecting to the rear lift pins, and a separate system from engine frame to tail wheel spring. I hoped/believed that this would allow small to moderate strikes to do nothing more than cause temporary deafness, although getting wings off later might have been a challenge!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-11 19:11, graeme bird wrote: [quote] | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
Bonding indeed, pointless I would think, nice lightening collectors in the wings and fuselage to convey to the control stick , but then unless you have one hand on the ground you are probably OK.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 135 hours 32 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
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rampil
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Electrical bonding |
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Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will
accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you
have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have
them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes
is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate.
The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not
fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable.
In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to
wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather,
the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction
static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive
nuisance for lightning.
There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground
is the negative battery terminal. That's it.
It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green
wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight.
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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Ira N224XS |
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:01 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce engineers involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce clear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that there were burn marks at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been unintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out.
Regards, David G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote: [quote] | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>
Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will
accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you
have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have
them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes
is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate.
The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not
fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable.
In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to
wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather,
the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction
static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive
nuisance for lightning.
There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground
is the negative battery terminal. That's it.
It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green
wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
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[b]
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pmorgans
Joined: 02 May 2014
Posts: 11
Location: West Wales
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:07 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Hi David,
Apologies for diving in on this topic.
You may be interested to read AAIB Bulletin 12/99 (attached pdf) regarding the disintegration of Schleicher ASK21 over Dunstable. Back in my gliding days in the late 1960's it was mandatory for all gliders which held a B.G.A cloud flying category to have electrical bonding. I think the answer is to stay away from large Cu unless you have a parachute.
The following link, ref. this accident, also shows photographs of damage:- www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/.../ASK%20accident%20report.htm
It's sobering to look at the damage to fittings.
Regards
Peter Morgans G-CFKZ Trigear XS
From: "davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 14:00
Subject: Re: Re: Electrical bonding
Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce engineers involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce clear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that there were burn marks at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been unintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out.
Regards, David G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>
Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will
accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you
have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have
them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes
is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate.
The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not
fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable.
In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to
wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather,
the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction
static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive
nuisance for lightning.
There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground
is the negative battery terminal. That's it.
It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green
wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
|
www.aeroearget="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.c* My Pilot Store [url=http://www.m rel=]www.mrr --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List[/url]==========
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:25 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Peter, Thanks - absolutely no apologies needed - it is very pertinent!I had pored over this in great detail when preparing my Oz trip! Both in this and in the other GRP glider strike quoted the lightning ran from wing tip to wing tip, with arcing causing enough heating/shock wave to break open or delaminate the wing. It was very much because of this report that I hoped to provide a more attractive (both to me and the lightning) path running essentially outside the wing. Regards, David
On 2014-11-12 16:07, PETER MORGANS wrote: [quote] Hi David,
Apologies for diving in on this topic.
You may be interested to read AAIB Bulletin 12/99 (attached pdf) regarding the disintegration of Schleicher ASK21 over Dunstable. Back in my gliding days in the late 1960's it was mandatory for all gliders which held a B.G.A cloud flying category to have electrical bonding. I think the answer is to stay away from large Cu unless you have a parachute.
The following link, ref. this accident, also shows photographs of damage:- www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/.../ASK%20accident%20report.htm
It's sobering to look at the damage to fittings.
Regards
Peter Morgans G-CFKZ Trigear XS
From: "davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 14:00Subject: Re: Re: Electrical bonding
Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce engineers involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce clear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that there were burn marks at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been unintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out.
Regards, David G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>
Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will
accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you
have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have
them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes
is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate.
The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not
fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable.
In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to
wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather,
the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction
static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive
nuisance for lightning.
There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground
is the negative battery terminal. That's it.
It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green
wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
|
www.aeroearget="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.c* My Pilot Store [url=http://www.m rel=]www.mrr --> [/url][url=http://www.matronics.gt; <a rel=]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List[/url]==========
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[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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pete(at)lawless.info
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:43 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Hi Guys
I sobering pic of lightning damage to a fully bonded all metal aeroplane - I suspect in a Europa it would ruin your whole day!
Plus an interesting Boeing article. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/4/
Regards
Pete
G-RMAC #109
[img]cid:part1.06080009.04020609(at)lawless.info[/img]
On 12/11/14 17:24, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
Peter, Thanks - absolutely no apologies needed - it is very pertinent! I had pored over this in great detail when preparing my Oz trip! Both in this and in the other GRP glider strike quoted the lightning ran from wing tip to wing tip, with arcing causing enough heating/shock wave to break open or delaminate the wing. It was very much because of this report that I hoped to provide a more attractive (both to me and the lightning) path running essentially outside the wing. Regards, David
On 2014-11-12 16:07, PETER MORGANS wrote: | Quote: | Hi David,
Apologies for diving in on this topic.
You may be interested to read AAIB Bulletin 12/99 (attached pdf) regarding the disintegration of Schleicher ASK21 over Dunstable. Back in my gliding days in the late 1960's it was mandatory for all gliders which held a B.G.A cloud flying category to have electrical bonding. I think the answer is to stay away from large Cu unless you have a parachute.
The following link, ref. this accident, also shows photographs of damage:- www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/.../ASK%20accident%20report.htm
It's sobering to look at the damage to fittings.
Regards
Peter Morgans G-CFKZ Trigear XS
From: "davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk" (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 14:00
Subject: Re: Re: Electrical bonding
Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce engineers involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce clear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that there were burn marks at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been unintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out.
Regards, David G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>
Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will
accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you
have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have
them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes
is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate.
The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not
fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable.
In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to
wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather,
the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction
static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive
nuisance for lightning.
There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground
is the negative battery terminal. That's it.
It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green
wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
|
www.aeroearget="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">[url=http://www.buildersbooks.c*]www.buildersbooks.c*[/url] My Pilot Store www.mrr --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List==========
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pete(at)lawless.info
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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pete(at)lawless.info
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Me too. Never been a depressurisation in an airliner due to a lightning strike that I know anything about, and that hole is half the size of one of the outflow valves. The way the paint has been removed, and scorched.....hmmmmm, very sus.
Tony R.
Sent from my iPad
On 13 Nov 2014, at 4:50 am, Ivan Shaw <ivanshaw(at)btinternet.com (ivanshaw(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[quote]v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
I don’t think that this photo is a lightning strike!!!
Ivan
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless
Sent: 12 November 2014 17:42
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Electrical bonding
Hi Guys
I sobering pic of lightning damage to a fully bonded all metal aeroplane - I suspect in a Europa it would ruin your whole day!
Plus an interesting Boeing article. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/4/
Regards
Pete
G-RMAC #109
<image001.jpg>
On 12/11/14 17:24, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
Peter, Thanks - absolutely no apologies needed - it is very pertinent!I had pored over this in great detail when preparing my Oz trip! Both in this and in the other GRP glider strike quoted the lightning ran from wing tip to wing tip, with arcing causing enough heating/shock wave to break open or delaminate the wing. It was very much because of this report that I hoped to provide a more attractive (both to me and the lightning) path running essentially outside the wing. Regards, David
On 2014-11-12 16:07, PETER MORGANS wrote: | Quote: |
Hi David,
Apologies for diving in on this topic.
You may be interested to read AAIB Bulletin 12/99 (attached pdf) regarding the disintegration of Schleicher ASK21 over Dunstable. Back in my gliding days in the late 1960's it was mandatory for all gliders which held a B.G.A cloud flying category to have electrical bonding. I think the answer is to stay away from large Cu unless you have a parachute.
The following link, ref. this accident, also shows photographs of damage:- www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/.../ASK%20accident%20report.htm
It's sobering to look at the damage to fittings.
Regards
Peter Morgans G-CFKZ Trigear XS
From: "davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk" (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 14:00
Subject: Re: Re: Electrical bonding
Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce engineers involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce clear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that there were burn marks at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been unintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out.
Regards, David G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | | --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)> Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator willaccomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off havethem. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikesis to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate.The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do notfly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable.In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to |
0123456789 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
0 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
1 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
2 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
3 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
4 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
5 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
6 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
7 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
8 | Quote: | | Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will |
9 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
0 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
1 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
2 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
3 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
4 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
5 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
6 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
7 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
8 | Quote: | | accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you |
9 | Quote: | | have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
0 | Quote: | | have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
1 | Quote: | | have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
2 | Quote: | | have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
3 | Quote: | | have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
4 | Quote: | | have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
5 | Quote: | | have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
6 | Quote: | | have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
7have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
8 | Quote: | | have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have |
9
them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes |
0 | Quote: | | them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes |
1 | Quote: | | them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes |
2 |
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pete(at)lawless.info
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Hi All
Tried twice to post a reply but both times I got to see no content after
the mail was delivered.
Ivan is correct not lightning. Pic was originally posted as a strike
when I was sent it a while back. Further checking this evening shows it
to be now described as an electrical fire.
Hope this mail gets through ok.
Regards
Pete
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rampil
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:49 am Post subject: Re: Electrical bonding |
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Please allow me to reiterate.
"Bonding" is for transferring triboelectric "static" charge off the aircraft.
Europa structures are not designed with integral metal mesh, so these
charges are going to sit in localized pockets on the skin of the paint.
They will not generally penetrate to the actual fiberglass unless the
paint has pinholes or the collected charge grows to a voltage (compared
to elsewhere on the plane) high enough to arc through, burning as it goes.
Bonding is not able to safely move the current flow of a lightning strike from
one side of an aircraft to another. Consider please the typical current flow
usually stated as 10,000 Amps. What gauge wire are you going to loft
which can carry that charge without instantly vaporizing? Look at the
posted metal fuselage damage. A puny 18 ga copper wire will explode
like a stick of dynamite.
There is no proven risk mitigation I am aware of for a Europa class craft
except staying away from strong convective activity. If you were to redesign
to Airbus technology, the Rotax could not lift you off the ground. You
might consider Cirrus type technology with a design penalty of only
quadrupling the price, but no extant technology guarantees safety.
Fly Safe!
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John Wighton
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Electrical bonding |
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|
Ira,
You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not seem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airbourne.
I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground, particularly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everything to the same potential by touch, relying on terra firma to act as a ground. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vigorous polishing session.
Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often heavy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350, this has a high level of composites content and poses new issues and solutions on many fronts, including bonding and lightning protection.
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:50 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
|
|
John & Ira , With the greatest of respect for your professional electrical & aeroengineering backgrounds, I think there are two rather different issues here:
For certified commercial aircraft lightning protection standards seek to enclose all passengers and key aircraft components in a Faraday cage conducting system that will cope with the fairly frequent strikes affecting commercial operations without any significant damage. To bring composite aircraft to that standard clearly involves incorporating some conducting material in the entire surface of the plane and this is a nonstarter (or at least a non retrospective mod option) for a plane like ours.
The other issue is the possibility of minimising any damage to a plane like ours in the event of a lightning strike, ( absolutely going along with the assertion that it is much preferable to avoid it). There are three good accounts of fibreglass small aircraft strikes that I have come across and in every case lightning went from wingtip to wing tip causing significant damage. These cases are the UK glider, previously mentioned (www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf ) , another glider referred to in that AAIB report of the first glider and the Europa strike suffered by Paul McAlister (www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.html ). In each case the pilot thought he was well clear of threatening clouds it seems. The gliders had the strike track along the aileron control rods whereas with the Europa it tracked along the wing tip lights wiring killing a number of the avionics in passing. I would strongly recommend folk reading all these reports. Having personally done so I cannot avoid the conclusions that :
1. Getting struck by lightning is a real possibility for any sensible, cautious pilot let alone someone contemplating flying through the ITCZ where rapidly developing massive Cu Nims are endemic
2. Lightning can and will pass from wingtip to wing tip along the most available conducting track
3. More debateable perhaps but my third conclusion was that there is much to be said for offering a track that steers clear of vital structures, and in the light of this I had (in 2006) planned laying expanded aluminium mesh in the wing close outs connected to aluminium foil over the wing tip and to the rear lift pins/connecting rod. Nowadays I would no doubt use Aluminium Microgrid obtainable at modest cost from Aircraft Spruce. I would not for a moment want to suggest that this would give commercial plane standard immunity to damage, but that it would improve the chances of avoiding either the wing exploding or the loss of avionics or other key electrical systems. I had toyed with the idea of static diffusers but without a system of conducting static from other parts of the aircraft I was not convinced this was workable ( and I guess that this non conductance of static is what saves us from sparking when we touch ground - we are only discharging the immediate area of contact.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-14 08:42, John Wighton wrote: [quote] | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>
Ira,
You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not seem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airbourne.
I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground, particularly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everything to the same potential by touch, relying on terra firma to act as a ground. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vigorous polishing session.
Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often heavy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350, this has a high level of composites content and poses new issues and solutions on many fronts, including bonding and lightning protection.
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:54 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
|
|
David,
There are always exceptions. When I was hit by lightning, or call it electrical discharge, in clear skies, it entered via the tailpipe and exited via the radiators. Apart from some melted metal there was no damage. I also have nav lights on the wing tips.
It just illustrates that just staying away from cu nims is no guarantee for avoiding a strike.
Karl
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 10:49:26 +0000
From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Electrical bonding
John & Ira , With the greatest of respect for your professional electrical & aeroengineering backgrounds, I think there are two rather different issues here:
For certified commercial aircraft lightning protection standards seek to enclose all passengers and key aircraft components in a Faraday cage conducting system that will cope with the fairly frequent strikes affecting commercial operations without any significant damage. To bring composite aircraft to that standard clearly involves incorporating some conducting material in the entire surface of the plane and this is a nonstarter (or at least a non retrospective mod option) for a plane like ours.
The other issue is the possibility of minimising any damage to a plane like ours in the event of a lightning strike, ( absolutely going along with the assertion that it is much preferable to avoid it). There are three good accounts of fibreglass small aircraft strikes that I have come across and in every case lightning went from wingtip to wing tip causing significant damage. These cases are the UK glider, previously mentioned(www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf ) , another glider referred to in that AAIB report of the first glider and the Europa strike suffered by Paul McAlister (www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.html ). In each case the pilot thought he was well clear of threatening clouds it seems. The gliders had the strike track along the aileron control rods whereas with the Europa it tracked along the wing tip lights wiring killing a number of the avionics in passing. I would strongly recommend folk reading all these reports. Having personally done so I cannot avoid the conclusions that :
1. Getting struck by lightning is a real possibility for any sensible, cautious pilot let alone someone contemplating flying through the ITCZ where rapidly developing massive Cu Nims are endemic
2. Lightningcan and willpass from wingtip to wing tip along the most available conducting track
3. More debateable perhaps but my third conclusion was that there is much to be said for offering a track that steers clear of vital structures, and in the light of this I had (in 2006) planned laying expanded aluminium mesh in the wing close outs connected to aluminium foil over the wing tip and to the rear lift pins/connecting rod. Nowadays I would no doubt use Aluminium Microgrid obtainable at modest cost from Aircraft Spruce. I would not for a moment want to suggest that this would give commercial plane standard immunity to damage, but that it would improve the chances of avoiding either the wing exploding or the loss of avionics or other key electrical systems. I had toyed with the idea of static diffusers but without a system of conducting static from other parts of the aircraft I was not convinced this was workable ( and I guess that this non conductance of static is what saves us from sparking when we touch ground - we are only discharging the immediate area of contact.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-14 08:42, John Wighton wrote:
[quote] | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>
Ira,
You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not seem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airbourne.
I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground, particularly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everything to the same potential by touch, relying on terra firma to act as a ground. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vigorous polishing session.
Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often heavy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350, this has a high level of composites content and poses new issues and solutions on many fronts, including bonding and lightning protection.
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:55 am Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Karl, Was that in a Europa? I do not want to rabbit on endlessly but my own plan had been also to link the engine frame to the tail spring of my mono in case the lightning came at me in that direction, Regards, David
On 2014-11-14 14:53, Karl Heindl wrote: [quote] David,
There are always exceptions. When I was hit by lightning, or call it electrical discharge, in clear skies, it entered via the tailpipe and exited via the radiators. Apart from some melted metal there was no damage. I also have nav lights on the wing tips.
It just illustrates that just staying away from cu nims is no guarantee for avoiding a strike.
Karl Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 10:49:26 +0000From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.ukTo: europa-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Re: Electrical bonding John & Ira , With the greatest of respect for your professional electrical & aeroengineering backgrounds, I think there are two rather different issues here: For certified commercial aircraft lightning protection standards seek to enclose all passengers and key aircraft components in a Faraday cage conducting system that will cope with the fairly frequent strikes affecting commercial operations without any significant damage. To bring composite aircraft to that standard clearly involves incorporating some conducting material in the entire surface of the plane and this is a nonstarter (or at least a non retrospective mod option) for a plane like ours. The other issue is the possibility of minimising any damage to a plane like ours in the event of a lightning strike, ( absolutely going along with the assertion that it is much preferable to avoid it). There are three good accounts of fibreglass small aircraft strikes that I have come across and in every case lightning went from wingtip to wing tip causing significant damage. These cases are the UK glider, previously mentioned (www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf ) , another glider referred to in that AAIB report of the first glider and the Europa strike suffered by Paul McAlister (www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.html ). In each case the pilot thought he was well clear of threatening clouds it seems. The gliders had the strike track along the aileron control rods whereas with the Europa it tracked along the wing tip lights wiring killing a number of the avionics in passing. I would strongly recommend folk reading all these reports. Having personally done so I cannot avoid the conclusions that : 1. Getting struck by lightning is a real possibility for any sensible, cautious pilot let alone someone contemplating flying through the ITCZ where rapidly developing massive Cu Nims are endemic 2. Lightning can and will pass from wingtip to wing tip along the most available conducting track 3. More debateable perhaps but my third conclusion was that there is much to be said for offering a track that steers clear of vital structures, and in the light of this I had (in 2006) planned laying expanded aluminium mesh in the wing close outs connected to aluminium foil over the wing tip and to the rear lift pins/connecting rod. Nowadays I would no doubt use Aluminium Microgrid obtainable at modest cost from Aircraft Spruce. I would not for a moment want to suggest that this would give commercial plane standard immunity to damage, but that it would improve the chances of avoiding either the wing exploding or the loss of avionics or other key electrical systems. I had toyed with the idea of static diffusers but without a system of conducting static from other parts of the aircraft I was not convinced this was workable ( and I guess that this non conductance of static is what saves us from sparking when we touch ground - we are only discharging the immediate area of contact. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-14 08:42, John Wighton wrote: | Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>
Ira,
You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not seem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airbourne.
I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground, particularly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everything to the same potential by touch, relying on terra firma to act as a ground. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vigorous polishing session.
Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often heavy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350, this has a high level of composites content and poses new issues and solutions on many fronts, including bonding and lightning protection.
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
|
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
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http://forums.matronics.com
ectric.com
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kheindl(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Of course it happened in my trigear Europa. I think it is one reason why glider pilots always wear a parachute.
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 17:54:38 +0000
From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Electrical bonding
Karl, Was that in a Europa? I do not want to rabbit on endlessly but my own plan had been also to link the engine frame to the tail spring of my mono in case the lightning came at me in that direction, Regards, David
On 2014-11-14 14:53, Karl Heindl wrote:
[quote] David,
There are always exceptions. When I was hit by lightning, or call it electrical discharge, in clear skies, it entered via the tailpipe and exited via the radiators. Apart from some melted metal there was no damage. I also have nav lights on the wing tips.
It just illustrates that just staying away from cu nims is no guarantee for avoiding a strike.
Karl
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 10:49:26 +0000
From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Electrical bonding
John & Ira , With the greatest of respect for your professional electrical & aeroengineering backgrounds, I think there are two rather different issues here:
For certified commercial aircraft lightning protection standards seek to enclose all passengers and key aircraft components in a Faraday cage conducting system that will cope with the fairly frequent strikes affecting commercial operations without any significant damage. To bring composite aircraft to that standard clearly involves incorporating some conducting material in the entire surface of the plane and this is a nonstarter (or at least a non retrospective mod option) for a plane like ours.
The other issue is the possibility of minimising any damage to a plane like ours in the event of a lightning strike, ( absolutely going along with the assertion that it is much preferable to avoid it). There are three good accounts of fibreglass small aircraft strikes that I have come across and in every case lightning went from wingtip to wing tip causing significant damage. These cases are the UK glider, previously mentioned(www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf ) , another glider referred to in that AAIB report of the first glider and the Europa strike suffered by Paul McAlister (www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.html ). In each case the pilot thought he was well clear of threatening clouds it seems. The gliders had the strike track along the aileron control rods whereas with the Europa it tracked along the wing tip lights wiring killing a number of the avionics in passing. I would strongly recommend folk reading all these reports. Having personally done so I cannot avoid the conclusions that :
1. Getting struck by lightning is a real possibility for any sensible, cautious pilot let alone someone contemplating flying through the ITCZ where rapidly developing massive Cu Nims are endemic
2. Lightningcan and willpass from wingtip to wing tip along the most available conducting track
3. More debateable perhaps but my third conclusion was that there is much to be said for offering a track that steers clear of vital structures, and in the light of this I had (in 2006) planned laying expanded aluminium mesh in the wing close outs connected to aluminium foil over the wing tip and to the rear lift pins/connecting rod. Nowadays I would no doubt use Aluminium Microgrid obtainable at modest cost from Aircraft Spruce. I would not for a moment want to suggest that this would give commercial plane standard immunity to damage, but that it would improve the chances of avoiding either the wing exploding or the loss of avionics or other key electrical systems. I had toyed with the idea of static diffusers but without a system of conducting static from other parts of the aircraft I was not convinced this was workable ( and I guess that this non conductance of static is what saves us from sparking when we touch ground - we are only discharging the immediate area of contact.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On 2014-11-14 08:42, John Wighton wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>
Ira,
You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not seem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airbourne.
I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground, particularly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everything to the same potential by touch, relying on terra firma to act as a ground. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vigorous polishing session.
Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often heavy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350, this has a high level of composites content and poses new issues and solutions on many fronts, including bonding and lightning protection.
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
|
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
|
===========
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" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:48 pm Post subject: Electrical bonding |
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Hello everyone,
I documented my incident on my WEB site http://www.europa.net.nz/363/ If you go to the left hand side of the page and expand open the “Flying Experiences” tab you find a page titled “A Lightning Strike”
As to adding discharge wicks, it my understanding that for certified aircraft they statically charge the aircraft and map the field. From this they determine the ideal locations for wicks. I guess if you added your own wicks you can’t make things worse but on the other hand it might not accomplish much either.
It is my understanding that the addition of mesh in the structure is for a different purpose. It is to provide areas to dissipate lightning strike should one occur.
I don’t have firsthand experience so I’m happy to be corrected on the above.
Paul[quote] [b]
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Remi Guerner
Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Electrical bonding |
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Could anyone explain why wooden aircraft does not seem to be critically affected by the possibility of a lightning strike as are composite planes? Here in Europe, we have thousands of certificated all wood Robin DR400s, some of them approved for IFR, flying without any specific lightning protection such as aluminum mesh in the skin, wicks and so on. However, in my previous aircraft, a DR380 which is very structurally similar to the still produced DR400, there were a full network of tinned copper braid running inside the fuselage, connecting all metallic parts (fuel tanks, control hinges, engine mount...) together to the negative terminal of the battery and the engine block. I am not sure wether or not there were also such a ground network inside the wings.
Remi Guerner
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