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barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:56 pm Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Gang,



Having recently acquired a Pitts S2C with an eye on competition, I've been having a discussion on the IAC exploder regarding spin recovery techniques.  It has been quite interesting and informative.  During the discussion our friend Richard Goode chimed in about the Yak-52, which had been brought up briefly.  With Richard's permission, I am reposting his direct email to me regarding the peculiarities of the Yak-52.  Here is the thread...and anyone considering aerobatics in a Yak-52 should read this closely...



Hi Barry,

 

Yes, on one hand I don't want to give the 52 a bad name, which it does not deserve. On the other, it really can bite the unwary â€“ hence my repeating this issue of training with someone competent, and that means with in-depth 52 experience. I sold a 52 to a pair of Dutch airline pilots, and although we demonstrated all the basic manoeuvres, we very strongly insisted that they should get proper instruction from Gena Elfimov, a brilliant 52 instructor who then lived in the UK.

 

Unfortunately, and totally by chance, some other Dutch customers of mine, to whom I had sold a Sukhoi 29, invited Martin Stahlik, who had just come seventh in the World Championship to come and instruct them on the Sukhoi, in which he was very experienced since we had sold him a 26. Sadly, the owners of the 52 also asked him to fly with them and instruct on the 52; they went into a deliberate flat spin at 6000 foot and went all the way down into the ground killing Martin and the Dutch pilot.

 

When I heard about this, I was very surprised that Martin had agreed to instruct on the 52, since he was a Czech and would have trained on Zlins. In the end, the accident investigators never found his logbooks, but it was fairly clear he'd never been in a 52 until the fatal flight â€“ and that was one of the best pilots in the world!

 

Best wishes

 

Richard

 

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

 

Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

 

From: Barry Hancock [mailto:bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com] 

Sent: 10 November 2014 16:25

To: Richard Goode

Cc: jdf(at)fellp.com; Aerobatics Exploder

Subject: Re: [Acro] I get it now

 

Hey Richard.  Glad you jumped in here.  In the Red Star community I have long been an advocate of proper spin training, particularly in the -52.  My training with Sergei Boriak and another gent from Kazakstan (whoâ€™s name I donâ€™t recallâ€¦he spoke no english, but was fluent in airplane) only reinforced the need for full spin training in the Yak-52 prior to aerosâ€¦regardless of what spin training you had in the past.  As your paper mentions, the stick and rudder forces are substantial and it would be easy to confuse the force required for jammed controls with a pilot not accustomed to these factors.

 

Barry Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

â€œMaking your aviation dreams a reality since 2000â€

see our new web site at: worldwidewarbirds.com

cell 801.899.5313

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

rmhou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:15 pm Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

How about CJ's? Anything special we CJ drivers should be aware of?

I have done spins in my CJ but only for 1 to 2 turns. It seems to recover itself well once controls are released. Does the spin get more difficult to recover after more turns?

 

     On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 8:05 PM, barryhancock <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com> wrote:

  

  



 --> Yak-List message posted by: "barryhancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)>



Gang,



Having recently acquired a Pitts S2C with an eye on competition, I've been having a discussion on the IAC exploder regarding spin recovery techniques.  It has been quite interesting and informative.  During the discussion our friend Richard Goode chimed in about the Yak-52, which had been brought up briefly.  With Richard's permission, I am reposting his direct email to me regarding the peculiarities of the Yak-52.  Here is the thread...and anyone considering  aerobatics in a Yak-52 should read this closely...



Hi Barry,

 

Yes, on one hand I don't want to give the 52 a bad name, which it does not deserve. On the other, it really can bite the unwary Ã¢â‚¬â€œ hence my repeating this issue of training with someone competent, and that means with in-depth 52 experience. I sold a 52 to a pair of Dutch airline pilots, and although we demonstrated all the basic manoeuvres, we very strongly insisted that they should get proper instruction from Gena Elfimov, a brilliant 52 instructor who then lived in the UK.

 

Unfortunately, and totally by chance, some other Dutch customers of mine, to whom I had sold a Sukhoi 29, invited Martin Stahlik, who had just come seventh in the World Championship to come and instruct them on the Sukhoi, in which he was very experienced since we had sold him a 26. Sadly, the owners of the 52 also asked him to fly with them and instruct on the 52; they went into a deliberate  flat spin at 6000 foot and went all the way down into the ground killing Martin and the Dutch pilot.

 

When I heard about this, I was very surprised that Martin had agreed to instruct on the 52, since he was a Czech and would have trained on Zlins. In the end, the accident investigators never found his logbooks, but it was fairly clear he'd never been in a 52 until the fatal flight Ã¢â‚¬â€œ and that was one of the best pilots in the world!

 

Best wishes

 

Richard

 

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

 

Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

 

From: Barry Hancock [mailto:bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)] 

Sent: 10 November 2014 16:25

To: Richard Goode

Cc: jdf(at)fellp.com (jdf(at)fellp.com); Aerobatics Exploder

Subject: Re: [Acro] I get it now

 

Hey Richard.  Glad you jumped in here.  In the Red Star community I have long been an advocate of proper spin training, particularly in the -52.  My training with Sergei Boriak and another gent from Kazakstan (whoÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s name I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t recallÃ¢â‚¬Â¦he spoke no english, but was fluent in airplane) only reinforced the need for full spin training in the Yak-52 prior to aerosÃ¢â‚¬Â¦regardless of what spin training you had in the past.  As your paper mentions, the stick and rudder forces are substantial and it would be easy to confuse the force required for jammed controls with a pilot not accustomed to these factors.

 

Barry Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Making your aviation dreams a reality since 2000Ã¢â‚¬

see our new web site at: worldwidewarbirds.com

cell  801.899.5313



--------

Barry Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

(877) 869-6458

www.worldwidewarbirds.com





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtnbsp;  --> htt==========

  

 

  

 

 [quote][b]

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Hi Robin,



Good on you for actually spinning your CJ.  It's surprising to me how many people have not done it.  A CJ that has proper CG is a stable and "normal" spinning airplane in my experience.  I've spun at least a dozen different CJs and if anything they have a tendency to want to come out into a spiral after a couple of rotations.  Need to be careful about that as G's can start mounting quickly = not good.  Both PARE and Beggs-Muller techniques work well in the CJ (if you don't know what those are, time to read up...and maybe get some instruction while your at it  ).



One of the things that contributes to the Yak-52 spin characteristics are the way that the aileron's are attached.  They continue to get air flow over them in a spin, which is what makes the stick forces so high in an accelerated flat spin.  The CJ doesn't have that issue.  



To be honest the CJ isn't a great spinning airplane for the reasons mentioned above...which is good if you aren't interested in multiple turn spins.  And for that reason I've never done upright flat spins in it.  All of my accelerated and flat spins have been in a Yak-50/52.  Talking about it makes me want to go try it in a CJ, tho'.   That being said, I know there area some on this list that have and hopefully they will chime in.



I don't remember the numbers in a Yak-52, but they are probably not too different than the Pitts.  I did a bunch of spins in the Pitts last week and an upright flat spin yields about 16 turns and 5000' of altitude loss in one minute.  



Again, point being is everyone should get spin instruction from a well qualified instructor in their type (reference Richard's story).  Even if you never spin your plane again, it will save your life if you somehow end up in that situation...which has happened in our community to a number of very "experienced" (i.e. high time in type) pilots who spun in only because they never sought proper training.  



Fly safely!



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:43 pm Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Yes, spin recovery training is a must in a Yak52 before you do aeros.

Done mine almost as soon as I got the aircraft, and now have done oodles of spins over the past 16 years of flying the Yak52.

In particular flat spin recovery, experimenting with various recovery techniques, noting the behaviour of the aircraft and associated height loss.

Even more important is learning the situations that get you into one in the first place.

Happy to provide the training if I'm closer to anyone on the list (UK)

(We start at 10,000 feet, and chutes are a must!)

Regards, 

Nigel Willson 

Flying Instructor/Examiner and Display Pilot

_________________________________________________ 

Â email: nigel(at)yakdisplay.com

Â mobile: (+44) 7809 116676Â 

Â web:Â http://yakdisplay.com



--

Steve Geard

Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 36

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Hi everyone. This is a very important topic, and deserves as much discussion as possible.

My Yak55m doesn't appear to auto rotate and will stop any type of spin with opposite rudder and central/forward stick.

In my limited time in Yak52's I have avoided flat spins due to various reports I have read. Aft CofG is not the 52's friend.

My understanding of FLAT spin recovery is.... "Into spin aileron" acts as a secondary rudder, by "more stalling the least stalled wing" & "less stalling the most stalled wing" hense reducing the yaw rate by altering the drag on the wings. The down going aileron also goes into high pressure where as the upgoing aileron goes into low pressure, the result is also reduced yaw rate.

Anyone want to expand on those concepts. Understanding what is happening is a good place to start for us all  Cheers Steve.

_________________
SteveO

nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:45 am Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Flat spin recovery for Yak52 requires the stick to be FULLY into the corner (FULL forward, FULL in spin aileron, and FULL opposite rudder).

The problem is that even with those FULL anti-spin controls applied, the 52 will continue to spin for a further 5 or 6 turns before the recovery suddenly takes effect (and in those 5 or 6 turns the danger is that people will think the recovery action is not working and release the controls to start again).

Once they take effect, swift action required to centralise the controls else you go inverted spinning the other way!



Training is required.

Regards, 

Nigel Willson 

Flying Instructor/Examiner and Display Pilot

_________________________________________________ 

 email: nigel(at)yakdisplay.com

 mobile: (+44) 7809 116676 

 web: http://yakdisplay.com



--

PaulW

Joined: 14 May 2013
Posts: 25

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Even more important is learning the situations that get you into one in the first place.

Happy to provide the training if I'm closer to anyone on the list (UK)

(We start at 10,000 feet, and chutes are a must!)

	




What would you say are these situations?

I am still a beginner in aero's and like to know more.

havard.dale(at)yaknorway.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:42 am Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Flat spin is just fun as long as you Get good training. Mishandling a Hammerhead could put you in a flat spin.



Recovery no problem as long as you do what you should and wait:-) And offcourse have the height needed.



We train it from 6000 feet and make the entry from Hammerhead, spin to 5000 feet and recovery hopefully before 4000 feet. Mishandle the recovery and you find yourself in an inverted spin. No problem as long as you aware that you are inverted, look out and you see. 



Get some good training and keep safe altitude save your but!!



BR

Havard

Yaknorway 



Sendt fra min iPhone 4S



 	  Quote: 	
		   Den 13. nov. 2014 kl. 16:11 skrev "PaulW" <paul(at)budcyber.com>:

 

 

 

 

> 

> Even more important is learning the situations that get you into one in the first place.

> Happy to provide the training if I'm closer to anyone on the list (UK)

> (We start at 10,000 feet, and chutes are a must!)

 

 

 What would you say are these situations?

 I am still a beginner in aero's and like to know more.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433582#433582

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

I just want for everyone to be really clear on this.  Some of us are old timers on this list but there are many new to the list, warbird and aerobatic flying, etc.  



First, NEVER do anything in an airplane without receiving instruction from a well qualified instructor.  Not all instructors are created equal.  Particularly when it comes to spins, make sure your IP is very experienced.  As Richard mentions in my original post, the -52 requires specific and very unorthodox techniques.  Remember the doctor who graduates at the bottom of his class is still called... "doctor."



Second, when we talk about "forward stick" this, if done wrong or held too long,  is also a recipe for a spin transition from upright to inverted.  There are several stories that don't end well when this happens.  Everyone would do well to at least see what that looks like with a well qualified instructor.  It is only fun if you are a sicko like me, but to be able to identify what is going on and how to recover are paramount (see link to article below).  



Third, as most of you have deduced by now the -52 has VERY different recovery techniques from standard PARE (or NASA standard) techniques.  That being said, the plane is totally reliable when proper techniques are used.  The -50 is very different from the -52 (much more "normal" spin characteristics).  



Fourth, spins come in all colors.  Upright, inverted, accelerated, flat, cross-over, etc.  They all feel and look different.  Wrong control inputs, out of sequence, or bad timing can result in one becoming another.  



Fifth, see my "First" comment.  



Here is a short article on spins from AOPA that is a quick and interesting read.  I also have trained with Bill Finigan and found his technique for "out of control' (i.e. the pilot does not know what the plane is doing or his attempts to fix it are not working) to be stone cold simple and reliable.  



http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2010/June/3/Spin-myths



Fly safely!



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

I found this in my         archives......From 2002, "SPINS UNSPUN", a terrific article published in the Warbird Flyer which was the       quarterly newsletter of the Yak Pilots Association, the successor       to the Yak Pilots Club and predecessor to the Redstar Pilots       Association.

       Dennis

        	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
       On 11/13/2014 9:44 AM, barryhancock wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "barryhancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com> (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)



I just want for everyone to be really clear on this.  Some of us are old timers on this list but there are many new to the list, warbird and aerobatic flying, etc.  



First, NEVER do anything in an airplane without receiving instruction from a well qualified instructor.  Not all instructors are created equal.  Particularly when it comes to spins, make sure your IP is very experienced.  As Richard mentions in my original post, the -52 requires specific and very unorthodox techniques.  Remember the doctor who graduates at the bottom of his class is still called... "doctor."



Second, when we talk about "forward stick" this, if done wrong or held too long,  is also a recipe for a spin transition from upright to inverted.  There are several stories that don't end well when this happens.  Everyone would do well to at least see what that looks like with a well qualified instructor.  It is only fun if you are a sicko like me, but to be able to identify what is going on and how to recover are paramount (see link to article below).  



Third, as most of you have deduced by now the -52 has VERY different recovery techniques from standard PARE (or NASA standard) techniques.  That being said, the plane is totally reliable when proper techniques are used.  The -50 is very different from the -52 (much more "normal" spin characteristics).  



Fourth, spins come in all colors.  Upright, inverted, accelerated, flat, cross-over, etc.  They all feel and look different.  Wrong control inputs, out of sequence, or bad timing can result in one becoming another.  



Fifth, see my "First" comment.  



Here is a short article on spins from AOPA that is a quick and interesting read.  I also have trained with Bill Finigan and found his technique for "out of control' (i.e. the pilot does not know what the plane is doing or his attempts to fix it are not working) to be stone cold simple and reliable.  



http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2010/June/3/Spin-myths



Fly safely!



Barry



--------

Barry Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

www.worldwidewarbirds.com





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433585#433585

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barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

 	  PaulW wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  

Even more important is learning the situations that get you into one in the first place.

Happy to provide the training if I'm closer to anyone on the list (UK)

(We start at 10,000 feet, and chutes are a must!)

	




What would you say are these situations?

I am still a beginner in aero's and like to know more. 	




I think your comment is exactly the point we are trying to make.  Before you are a beginning aerobatic pilot, you need to be well versed in spins.  Any aerobatic instructor/school worth your time will REQUIRE you to go through spin training before you attempt any aerobatics.  



Self taught or "I read that in a book" approaches are foolhardy unless you have first mastered all spin recoveries.



As for what situations can get you into a spin, virtually any maneuver that introduces slow speed and requires rudder input to keep the ball in the center (yes, that's a pretty broad category of maneuvers) could potentially put you into a spin.  We have lost people in our community on inadvertent spins in the pattern!  It happens, gang.  



Any maneuver that takes you into the vertical (loop, Cuban, hammerhead, Immelmann, Split S, etc.) is particularly vulnerable to a spin. Whether it is upright or inverted depends on several factors.  Which factors are a really good idea to become very familiar with before attempting these maneuvers.  



Or, you can take the "what could possibly go wrong approach" and realize the answer to that question as you are hopelessly caught in a spin as the ground rushes at you at over 5000 fpm.



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

havard.dale(at)yaknorway.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Good points Barry,



Offcourse everybody new with all kind of planes or different kind of flying should Get qualified training.



I also recomand all that flying the Yak 52 to Get qualified training. Take this plane into aerobatic flying and Flatspin it without training by an qualified instructor most likely put you on a sad statistic. 



On the other hand, dont be affraid for it and Get scared of all reports out there, just use them as they are ment to. Recomandation to Get good training before you hit the tire and light the fire for a solo flight. The Yak 52 is a dam good and safe plane, if its handled correct as every plane should be.



Happy flying:-)



BR

Havard 

Yaknorway



Sendt fra min iPhone 4S



 	  Quote: 	
		   Den 13. nov. 2014 kl. 16:44 skrev "barryhancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com>:

 

 

 

 I just want for everyone to be really clear on this.  Some of us are old timers on this list but there are many new to the list, warbird and aerobatic flying, etc.  

 

 First, NEVER do anything in an airplane without receiving instruction from a well qualified instructor.  Not all instructors are created equal.  Particularly when it comes to spins, make sure your IP is very experienced.  As Richard mentions in my original post, the -52 requires specific and very unorthodox techniques.  Remember the doctor who graduates at the bottom of his class is still called... "doctor."

 

 Second, when we talk about "forward stick" this, if done wrong or held too long,  is also a recipe for a spin transition from upright to inverted.  There are several stories that don't end well when this happens.  Everyone would do well to at least see what that looks like with a well qualified instructor.  It is only fun if you are a sicko like me, but to be able to identify what is going on and how to recover are paramount (see link to article below).  

 

 Third, as most of you have deduced by now the -52 has VERY different recovery techniques from standard PARE (or NASA standard) techniques.  That being said, the plane is totally reliable when proper techniques are used.  The -50 is very different from the -52 (much more "normal" spin characteristics).  

 

 Fourth, spins come in all colors.  Upright, inverted, accelerated, flat, cross-over, etc.  They all feel and look different.  Wrong control inputs, out of sequence, or bad timing can result in one becoming another.  

 

 Fifth, see my "First" comment.  

 

 Here is a short article on spins from AOPA that is a quick and interesting read.  I also have trained with Bill Finigan and found his technique for "out of control' (i.e. the pilot does not know what the plane is doing or his attempts to fix it are not working) to be stone cold simple and reliable.  

 

 http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2010/June/3/Spin-myths

 

 Fly safely!

 

 Barry

 

 --------

 Barry Hancock

 Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

 www.worldwidewarbirds.com

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433585#433585

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:37 am Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Well written, Barry.



 Years ago when I was considering buying a Yak 52, I had the good fortune to spend three days with Gennady Elfimov in Bobbington, UK. It seemed for all but about an hour we spun his Yak 52 over, over and over again. And those were just normal and flat spins. We never got to flat inverted spins. Only when he was convinced that I could recover from a spin, he let me run around the "circuit." He's tough guy.



I'm also convinced that every prospective Yak 52 owner should find a Gennady or Sergey Boriak (sp?). Where are they both living, now? Anybody know?



Blitz Fox



P.S.  Dave King and Hal Morley brow beat me into buying a CJ - a plane that can be forced into a spin. :0)



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 13, 2014, at 7:44 AM, barryhancock <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I just want for everyone to be really clear on this.  Some of us are old timers on this list but there are many new to the list, warbird and aerobatic flying, etc.  

 

 First, NEVER do anything in an airplane without receiving instruction from a well qualified instructor.  Not all instructors are created equal.  Particularly when it comes to spins, make sure your IP is very experienced.  As Richard mentions in my original post, the -52 requires specific and very unorthodox techniques.  Remember the doctor who graduates at the bottom of his class is still called... "doctor."

 

 Second, when we talk about "forward stick" this, if done wrong or held too long,  is also a recipe for a spin transition from upright to inverted.  There are several stories that don't end well when this happens.  Everyone would do well to at least see what that looks like with a well qualified instructor.  It is only fun if you are a sicko like me, but to be able to identify what is going on and how to recover are paramount (see link to article below).  

 

 Third, as most of you have deduced by now the -52 has VERY different recovery techniques from standard PARE (or NASA standard) techniques.  That being said, the plane is totally reliable when proper techniques are used.  The -50 is very different from the -52 (much more "normal" spin characteristics).  

 

 Fourth, spins come in all colors.  Upright, inverted, accelerated, flat, cross-over, etc.  They all feel and look different.  Wrong control inputs, out of sequence, or bad timing can result in one becoming another.  

 

 Fifth, see my "First" comment.  

 

 Here is a short article on spins from AOPA that is a quick and interesting read.  I also have trained with Bill Finigan and found his technique for "out of control' (i.e. the pilot does not know what the plane is doing or his attempts to fix it are not working) to be stone cold simple and reliable.  

 

 http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2010/June/3/Spin-myths

 

 Fly safely!

 

 Barry

 

 --------

 Barry Hancock

 Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

 www.worldwidewarbirds.com

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433585#433585

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Here's a link to a short video of a transition or "cross over" spin exercise I recently did with Bill Finigan, who has 10,000 hrs. of Pitts time.  While this is a drill, this is exactly the kind of craziness you can encounter with an unintentional spin entry and improper recovery techniques.  Imagine for a second you were not expecting this and had no training...



https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10205379349393189&comment_id=10205381775213833&offset=0&total_comments=4

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:19 am Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Since we are talking safety, let me throw in a hopefully interesting anecdote.  I watched the video Barry mentioned here and in doing so I had to smile, because what happened to the gent in front happened to me, but much worse.  Please let me explain.



The first time I did inverted spin training, I had a headset on ..... exactly as this pilot did.  Same exact model too!   When the spin went hard invented in the YAK-50, my headset flew off my head, and was bouncing off the canopy behind me.  When I flicked to an upright spin, it fell behind the seat and into the control cables for the elevator and rudder.   Since I am writing this story, obviously I am still alive.



If you look at the video, you can see the gent with one hand on the stick and the other hand holding his headset from falling off.



I am not berating or finger point in ANY way.  I made this same exact mistake, but since it was a stock 50 with no cover behind the backseat, it could have killed me.



So word to the wise for aerobatic folks.  Wear some type of gear that captures the headset in a cranial cover with a CHIN STRAP!  Either that, or a full helmet.   Never headsets that just slide over your head.



It's kind of hard to get instruction in a single seat aircraft.... .the only method you really have is for your instructor to be on the radio and watching the aircraft closely.  When your headset falls off, ....... no more instructor.



Lesson learned.



Mark



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:51 am Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

"Hard inverted in the Yak-50"   Not "invented".



Typo.  Sorry.



Mark



p.s.  A cover behind the seat in the 50 is also a very wise move.

--

Bill1200

Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Posts: 111
Location: medford oregon

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Any suggestions for west coast spin instructors for -52

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

 	  mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote: 	
		  Since we are talking safety, let me throw in a hopefully interesting anecdote.  I watched the video Barry mentioned here and in doing so I had to smile, because what happened to the gent in front happened to me, but much worse.  Please let me explain.



The first time I did inverted spin training, I had a headset on ..... exactly as this pilot did.  Same exact model too!   When the spin went hard invented in the YAK-50, my headset flew off my head, and was bouncing off the canopy behind me.  When I flicked to an upright spin, it fell behind the seat and into the control cables for the elevator and rudder.   Since I am writing this story, obviously I am still alive.



If you look at the video, you can see the gent with one hand on the stick and the other hand holding his headset from falling off.



I am not berating or finger point in ANY way.  I made this same exact mistake, but since it was a stock 50 with no cover behind the backseat, it could have killed me.



So word to the wise for aerobatic folks.  Wear some type of gear that captures the headset in a cranial cover with a CHIN STRAP!  Either that, or a full helmet.   Never headsets that just slide over your head.

-- 	




Thanks, Mark.  Your points are right on track.  There are a couple of assumptions about this video that deserve clearing up.



1)  The headsets we were wearing (Lightspeeds) have a velcro strap on them and work great for inverted flight and are comfortable.  That being said, yes, don't go inverted or do any negative without a headset restraint system of some type.



2)  I was flying the plane from the back seat (typical PIC position in a Pitts), so Bill didn't have any hands on the stick.  He's (Bill Fenian) a 10,000+ hr. Pitts instructor and IAC Hall of Famer.  For whatever reason he doesn't strap himself extra tight in the front for the inverted stuff.

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Roger Baker used to do all the upright spin training in the -52 out of San Diego, but I'm pretty sure he's done with flying Yaks.  I don't know anyone else.  I would get in touch with Vladimir Yastremski and see if he knows anyone.  yastremski (at) sbcglobal.net

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

gord(at)thedampub.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:43 pm Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52

Hi Barry



I think I have explored all the spin areas of the 50 and haven’t found any problem areas …yet.  It sounds like the 52 is different.  What exactly is the recovery method from the upright flat and inverted flat in the 52?  My 50 doesn’t do a good inverted flat. My Pitts and Ultimates were great inverted but the 50 is too much work.   The upright flat takes 1-2 turns more if you forget the inspin aileron.



Thanks



Gord



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 17, 2014, at 3:12 PM, barryhancock <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Roger Baker used to do all the upright spin training in the -52 out of San Diego, but I'm pretty sure he's done with flying Yaks.  I don't know anyone else.  I would get in touch with Vladimir Yastremski.  yastremski (at) sbcglobal.net

 

 --------

 Barry Hancock

 Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

 www.worldwidewarbirds.com

 

 

 

 

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