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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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Guys
I should have said cold NOT start.
When the outside temp is under 55 degrees my Jab 3300 will not start. I have tried jumper cables, chargers with 50 amp boost and a new battery. The engine spins very fast There is spark at the plugs and fuel dripping onto the nosewheel pant. I even tried starting fluid, choke on, choke off, throttle cracked, throttle wide open - nothing After about 45 minutes of this and letting it sit while the battery was recharging I decided to give it one more try. I tried it ( choke out - throttle closed) and it started right away as though nothing had been wrong. No flooded black smoke, no miss firing just a smooth run. Let it run until the oil temp show a small rise and shut it down. Put the cowl back on and it started immediately with no jumpers. I was a little apprehensive about leaving the field for a 90 mile lunch trek but went anyhow - it started right up after sitting on the ramp for an hour and a half and again when we stopped for a short visit at another field. It has never failed to start after the first start of the day. My choke has not been drilled out to the 1.2mm. Could that be part of the problem. I am also wondering how the fuel got on the wheelpant?? I turn the key ( mag switch ) off while working on it and back on before spinning the starter - could it be the switch grounding both coils intermittently.
I have heard of a newer coil for the left side that would allow propping or at least a lot more spark at a lower start RPM. Has anyone tried it?
Out of ideas.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
Do Not Archive
[quote][b]
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pete(at)usjabiru.com
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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Bobby,
When your engine is warm what is your idle rpm?
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 2:53 PM
To: Server, JabiruEngine-List Digest
Subject: Cold Start
Guys
I should have said cold NOT start.
When the outside temp is under 55 degrees my Jab 3300 will not start. I have tried jumper cables, chargers with 50 amp boost and a new battery. The engine spins very fast There is spark at the plugs and fuel dripping onto the nosewheel pant. I even tried starting fluid, choke on, choke off, throttle cracked, throttle wide open - nothing After about 45 minutes of this and letting it sit while the battery was recharging I decided to give it one more try. I tried it ( choke out - throttle closed) and it started right away as though nothing had been wrong. No flooded black smoke, no miss firing just a smooth run. Let it run until the oil temp show a small rise and shut it down. Put the cowl back on and it started immediately with no jumpers. I was a little apprehensive about leaving the field for a 90 mile lunch trek but went anyhow - it started right up after sitting on the ramp for an hour and a half and again when we stopped for a short visit at another field. It has never failed to start after the first start of the day. My choke has not been drilled out to the 1.2mm. Could that be part of the problem. I am also wondering how the fuel got on the wheelpant?? I turn the key ( mag switch ) off while working on it and back on before spinning the starter - could it be the switch grounding both coils intermittently.
I have heard of a newer coil for the left side that would allow propping or at least a lot more spark at a lower start RPM. Has anyone tried it?
Out of ideas.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
Do Not Archive
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dougsnash
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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Bobby, we are dealing with a similar issue up hear in the recently "Great White North" of Northwestern Ontario. As a solution on my buddy's STOL 750/3300 we took a small 6"x10" ceramic heater and modded up some galvanized ductwork and a five inch flex hose to work as a rudimentary engine pre-heater. After running the heater for about 45 minutes last night at a temperature of about 18F the engine fired right up just like at the peak of summer. We also put an old sleeping bag on top of the cowl to keep most of the heat in. The cylinder fins were not hot but I'm guessing they were in the 60F range. We were not even really trying to start the engine (just seeing how fast it turned) but it fired right up.
I guess these engines from Australia don't like our cool North American temperatures.
Doug M
From: "BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net" <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net>
To: "Server, JabiruEngine-List Digest" <jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 2:53 PM
Subject: Cold Start
Guys
I should have said cold NOT start.
When the outside temp is under 55 degrees my Jab 3300 will not start. I have tried jumper cables, chargers with 50 amp boost and a new battery. The engine spins very fast There is spark at the plugs and fuel dripping onto the nosewheel pant. I even tried starting fluid, choke on, choke off, throttle cracked, throttle wide open - nothing After about 45 minutes of this and letting it sit while the battery was recharging I decided to give it one more try. I tried it ( choke out - throttle closed) and it started right away as though nothing had been wrong. No flooded black smoke, no miss firing just a smooth run. Let it run until the oil temp show a small rise and shut it down. Put the cowl back on and it started immediately with no jumpers. I was a little apprehensive about leaving the field for a 90 mile lunch trek but went anyhow - it started right up after sitting on the ramp for an hour and a half and again when we stopped for a short visit at another field. It has never failed to start after the first start of the day. My choke has not been drilled out to the 1.2mm. Could that be part of the problem. I am also wondering how the fuel got on the wheelpant?? I turn the key ( mag switch ) off while working on it and back on before spinning the starter - could it be the switch grounding both coils intermittently.
I have heard of a newer coil for the left side that would allow propping or at least a lot more spark at a lower start RPM. Has anyone tried it?
Out of ideas.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
Do Not Archive
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hleeberrier(at)lexcominc.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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Hey Bobby
I have a Lightning with a 3300A Jabiru and its also hard to start in cold weather. Your idle speed should not be over 900rpm Before you pre-flight turn on ele pump to fill carb bowl. Then turn over engine 6 or 7 times by hand mag off, to suck fuel in engine.
Do your preflight. Then to start fuel pump on to fill bowl. Throttler off Choke full on and start. After start choke in some and add throttle for proper RPM 1100 or so to warm engine. Mine will start using this procedure. Jabiru recommends per heat at 40F and below. I have a ceramic heater around $25 that I use and it takes 20mins to heat the engine so it will start. Important don,t give it any throttle or it will not start.Â
Tell me about the new coil I have not heard of it.Â
My name is Lee Berrier from Central NC and am 75 years old. I have a Arion Lightning that I built with 115hrs on it. Am getting ready to put the new thru bolt nuts on. Have you changed yours or you got a later engine. Effects sr# 637 thru 2391.Â
On 11/19/2014 3:53 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) wrote:
[quote] Guys
I should have said cold NOT start.
When the outside temp is under 55 degrees my Jab 3300 will not start. I have tried jumper cables, chargers with 50 amp boost and a new battery. The engine spins very fast There is spark at the plugs and fuel dripping onto the nosewheel pant. I even tried starting fluid, choke on, choke off, throttle cracked, throttle wide open - nothing After about 45 minutes of this and letting it sit while the battery was recharging I decided to give it one more try. I tried it ( choke out - throttle closed) and it started right away as though nothing had been wrong. No flooded black smoke, no miss firing just a smooth run. Let it run until the oil temp show a small rise and shut it down. Put the cowl back on and it started immediately with no jumpers. I was a little apprehensive about leaving the field for a 90 mile lunch trek but went anyhow - it started right up after sitting on the ramp for an hour and a half and again when we stopped for a short visit at another field. It has never failed to start after the first start of the day. My choke has not been drilled out to the 1.2mm. Could that be part of the problem. I am also wondering how the fuel got on the wheelpant?? I turn the key ( mag switch ) off while working on it and back on before spinning the starter - could it be the switch grounding both coils intermittently.Â
I have heard of a newer coil for the left side that would allow propping or at least a lot more spark at a lower start RPM. Has anyone tried it?
Out of ideas.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
Do Not Archive
[b]
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jerryvmd
Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:22 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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I agree with what Lee has written with one addition. My battery is a 18 AH gel cell. It turns the engine well in warm weather but can't turn the engine to proper speed to fire the mags if the battery becomes cold soaked. I use two 1600 watt hair driers with scat tubing attached then aimed under the back of the cowl to preheat. 15-20 minutes really warms well but if I aim one at the battery (Bat. is on firewall engine side) and warm it, I get full cranking amps and starts every time.
Jerry
On 11/19/2014 5:45 PM, H Lee Berrier wrote:
[quote]
Hey Bobby
I have a Lightning with a 3300A Jabiru and its also hard to start in cold weather. Your idle speed should not be over 900rpm Before you pre-flight turn on ele pump to fill carb bowl. Then turn over engine 6 or 7 times by hand mag off, to suck fuel in engine.
Do your preflight. Then to start fuel pump on to fill bowl. Throttler off Choke full on and start. After start choke in some and add throttle for proper RPM 1100 or so to warm engine. Mine will start using this procedure. Jabiru recommends per heat at 40F and below. I have a ceramic heater around $25 that I use and it takes 20mins to heat the engine so it will start. Important don,t give it any throttle or it will not start.Â
[b]
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Garth
Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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I believe the "new coil" you guys may be referring to is the Rotec electronic ignition, refer to this link:
http://www.rotecaerosport.com/products/jab/ign/
I just installed one of these on my 3300 and so far its working as advertised.
FYI
Garth
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From:"H Lee Berrier" <hleeberrier(at)lexcominc.net>Date:Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 5:58 PMSubject:Re: Cold Start
Hey Bobby
I have a Lightning with a 3300A Jabiru and its also hard to start in cold weather. Your idle speed should not be over 900rpm Before you pre-flight turn on ele pump to fill carb bowl. Then turn over engine 6 or 7 times by hand mag off, to suck fuel in engine.
Do your preflight. Then to start fuel pump on to fill bowl. Throttler off Choke full on and start. After start choke in some and add throttle for proper RPM 1100 or so to warm engine. Mine will start using this procedure. Jabiru recommends per heat at 40F and below. I have a ceramic heater around $25 that I use and it takes 20mins to heat the engine so it will start. Important don,t give it any throttle or it will not start.
Tell me about the new coil I have not heard of it.
My name is Lee Berrier from Central NC and am 75 years old. I have a Arion Lightning that I built with 115hrs on it. Am getting ready to put the new thru bolt nuts on. Have you changed yours or you got a later engine. Effects sr# 637 thru 2391.
On 11/19/2014 3:53 PM, [url=javascript:return]BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net[/url] wrote:
| Quote: | Guys
I should have said cold NOT start.
When the outside temp is under 55 degrees my Jab 3300 will not start. I have tried jumper cables, chargers with 50 amp boost and a new battery. The engine spins very fast There is spark at the plugs and fuel dripping onto the nosewheel pant. I even tried starting fluid, choke on, choke off, throttle cracked, throttle wide open - nothing After about 45 minutes of this and letting it sit while the battery was recharging I decided to give it one more try. I tried it ( choke out - throttle closed) and it started right away as though nothing had been wrong. No flooded black smoke, no miss firing just a smooth run. Let it run until the oil temp show a small rise and shut it down. Put the cowl back on and it started immediately with no jumpers. I was a little apprehensive about leaving the field for a 90 mile lunch trek but went anyhow - it started right up after sitting on the ramp for an hour and a half and again when we stopped for a short visit at another field. It has never failed to start after the first start of the day. My choke has not been drilled out to the 1.2mm. Could that be part of the problem. I am also wondering how the fuel got on the wheelpant?? I turn the key ( mag switch ) off while working on it and back on before spinning the starter - could it be the switch grounding both coils intermittently.
I have heard of a newer coil for the left side that would allow propping or at least a lot more spark at a lower start RPM. Has anyone tried it?
Out of ideas.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
Do Not Archive
www.homebuilthelp* Race Consulting http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.cofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forum=====================
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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:32 am Post subject: Cold Start |
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Pete
Thanks for your input.
My idle rpm with engine warm is 650 to 750 while holding the throttle full closed which is what I do when cranking. If I let go of the throttle it will ease up to about 900 which is too high on smooth concrete - it will accelerate and I have to use braking.
When it starts I like to let it turn 1,000 to 1200 while warming up.
bobby
Do not archive
[quote][b]
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: Cold Start |
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Hi Pete:
Why is it that your throttle changes when you let go? This would be classified as Throttle Creep which is not acceptable. Is it because there is a bend or a loop causing pressure? Is the friction lock worn out? Maybe you have too good an install of the throttle cable... NO FRICTION! It is very interesting to read about a reversal of what usually happens.
Barry
On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 8:31 AM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]Pete
Thanks for your input.
My idle rpm with engine warm is 650 to 750 while holding the throttle full closed which is what I do when cranking. If I let go of the throttle it will ease up to about 900 which is too high on smooth concrete - it will accelerate and I have to use braking.
When it starts I like to let it turn 1,000 to 1200 while warming up.
bobby
Do not archive
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_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
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ank">www.mrrace.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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matronics(at)rtist.nl
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:56 am Post subject: Cold Start |
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This has little to do with throttle creep. Most installs, especially those with an extended throttle lever, will allow you to pull the throttle further back, because it bends the idle stop. Pull hard enough and you'll cause physical damage to the idle stop.
Rob
On 11/20/2014 4:26 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
[quote] Hi Pete:
Why is it that your throttle changes when you let go? This would be classified as Throttle Creep which is not acceptable. Is it because there is a bend or a loop causing pressure? Is the friction lock worn out? Maybe you have too good an install of the throttle cable... NO FRICTION! It is very interesting to read about a reversal of what usually happens.
Barry
[b]
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:58 am Post subject: Cold Start |
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Bobby:
The Charger or the Jumper Cables are not the problem. All the battery and starter have to do is spin the engine and as you said, that is happening. The fuel on the wheel pant should be your first hint. You are FLOODING the engine. This statement of course ASSUMES, that everything else is acceptable...???
Black Smoke is NOT a true indication of a flooded state. Black Smoke is Carbon and or Oil burning. Also, due to the prop wind and weather wind you would not see smoke unless you stood out side the plane, focused on the exhaust pipe and watched as someone else started the plane.
Generally on cold days; usually 32 F and below you need to give one or two extra primes. But, at 55 F !!! That should not be an issue.
1 - Are you priming?
2 - How much are you priming?
3 - Whoops! Can you prime? I should have asked that first.
4 - Standard start procedure:
| Quote: | Prime
Mixture Rich
Throttle 1/4" in
Boost Pump - On (Wait till there is a slowing down of the pump)
|
| Quote: | Boost Pump - Off
MAGs - On
|
| Quote: | Clear Prop
>> START
5 - The 1.2 mm drill hole is not much, but if it as been a practice to do such a hole, then what is needed is more AIR entering the Carb. The small hole could very well be a Choke/Carb starting issue... Because - And I'm Guessing - When you start the plane after the first start of the day you Are Not using the Choke???
|
Experiment a little... No Choke... A little choke... See what happens.
Barry
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 3:53 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]Guys
I should have said cold NOT start.
When the outside temp is under 55 degrees my Jab 3300 will not start. I have tried jumper cables, chargers with 50 amp boost and a new battery. The engine spins very fast There is spark at the plugs and fuel dripping onto the nosewheel pant. I even tried starting fluid, choke on, choke off, throttle cracked, throttle wide open - nothing After about 45 minutes of this and letting it sit while the battery was recharging I decided to give it one more try. I tried it ( choke out - throttle closed) and it started right away as though nothing had been wrong. No flooded black smoke, no miss firing just a smooth run. Let it run until the oil temp show a small rise and shut it down. Put the cowl back on and it started immediately with no jumpers. I was a little apprehensive about leaving the field for a 90 mile lunch trek but went anyhow - it started right up after sitting on the ramp for an hour and a half and again when we stopped for a short visit at another field. It has never failed to start after the first start of the day. My choke has not been drilled out to the 1.2mm. Could that be part of the problem. I am also wondering how the fuel got on the wheelpant?? I turn the key ( mag switch ) off while working on it and back on before spinning the starter - could it be the switch grounding both coils intermittently.
I have heard of a newer coil for the left side that would allow propping or at least a lot more spark at a lower start RPM. Has anyone tried it?
Out of ideas.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
Do Not Archive
| Quote: |
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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pete(at)usjabiru.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:16 am Post subject: Cold Start |
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Our FWF kits have either a single friction lock throttle cable or a dual throttle cable system that has split blocks that can be tightened against the throttle cross rod to provide proper tension. Works great but every couple of years needs to be adjusted to the right tension. There is a spring on the carb which pulls the throttle to full open as a safety feature in case of throttle cable breaking or coming apart. Going to full throttle keeps you in the air which is better than having the engine go to idle power putting you into a glide that is hopefully long enough to get you away from the alligators in the Everglades.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 9:27 AM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Cold Start
Hi Pete:
Why is it that your throttle changes when you let go? This would be classified as Throttle Creep which is not acceptable. Is it because there is a bend or a loop causing pressure? Is the friction lock worn out? Maybe you have too good an install of the throttle cable... NO FRICTION! It is very interesting to read about a reversal of what usually happens.
Barry
On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 8:31 AM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Pete
Thanks for your input.
My idle rpm with engine warm is 650 to 750 while holding the throttle full closed which is what I do when cranking. If I let go of the throttle it will ease up to about 900 which is too high on smooth concrete - it will accelerate and I have to use braking.
When it starts I like to let it turn 1,000 to 1200 while warming up.
bobby
Do not archive
0
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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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List,
Last night was 27 degrees at the airport and got up to 50 right after lunch.
I tried to start my 3300 again and it never fired.
At the same time a friend called from a nearby airport trying to start his 2200 with several mechanics standing by and offering assistance. We went over the start procedures several times. Finally one of the mechanics removed the wire to the distributor and it had good spark. He then removed some spark plugs and there was no visible spark. He measured the resistance of the wire and it was 4,000 ohms. He said this is over 4 times the resistance of what the carbon wires should be. I measured one of mine and it was 3,500 ohms.
Question: Has anyone changed the wires to stranded copper with any better luck starting a cold engine. One of the guys at the airport has a Continental O-200 with copper wires and he has no interference with his radios or intercom.
Neither engine started even after over an hour charging batteries and using jumper cables.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
[quote][b]
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:05 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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My cold start issues went away 800 hrs ago when I closed the air gap at the pickups at the flywheel to about.008"
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 20, 2014, at 4:54 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) wrote:
[quote]List,
Last night was 27 degrees at the airport and got up to 50 right after lunch.
I tried to start my 3300 again and it never fired.
At the same time a friend called from a nearby airport trying to start his 2200 with several mechanics standing by and offering assistance. We went over the start procedures several times. Finally one of the mechanics removed the wire to the distributor and it had good spark. He then removed some spark plugs and there was no visible spark. He measured the resistance of the wire and it was 4,000 ohms. He said this is over 4 times the resistance of what the carbon wires should be. I measured one of mine and it was 3,500 ohms.
Question: Has anyone changed the wires to stranded copper with any better luck starting a cold engine. One of the guys at the airport has a Continental O-200 with copper wires and he has no interference with his radios or intercom.
Neither engine started even after over an hour charging batteries and using jumper cables.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ot;">www.aeroelectric.com
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uEngine-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
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don.honabach(at)pcperfect
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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Carbon wires?
I’m not sure what the spec is on the 3300/2200, but I found this video on YouTube that shows a guy testing spark plug wires and he seems rather happy with 6,000 Ohm reading (3:50-4:00 mark):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U27Gp_uQDLU
Don
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 2:55 PM
To: Server, JabiruEngine-List Digest
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Cold Start
List,
Last night was 27 degrees at the airport and got up to 50 right after lunch.
I tried to start my 3300 again and it never fired.
At the same time a friend called from a nearby airport trying to start his 2200 with several mechanics standing by and offering assistance. We went over the start procedures several times. Finally one of the mechanics removed the wire to the distributor and it had good spark. He then removed some spark plugs and there was no visible spark. He measured the resistance of the wire and it was 4,000 ohms. He said this is over 4 times the resistance of what the carbon wires should be. I measured one of mine and it was 3,500 ohms.
Question: Has anyone changed the wires to stranded copper with any better luck starting a cold engine. One of the guys at the airport has a Continental O-200 with copper wires and he has no interference with his radios or intercom.
Neither engine started even after over an hour charging batteries and using jumper cables.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: Cold Start |
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Barry
The throttle at the carb is spring loaded to go wide open in case the cable breaks or comes loose. It is not a strong spring and throttle creep is not a problem especially with a friction knob.
Also the Jabiru start procedure can not be compared to the Lycoming or Continental.
It has a Constant Velocity Bing Carburetor with a choke. ( no way to prime ). It also has to be spun about 300 rpm for the magnetic ignition to develop enough energy to fire the plugs. It does not have impulse couplings. Therefor a cold soaked or weak battery, cold oil, cold gas ( little vaporization ) makes for hard starting or not at all. Preheat is about the only option. Al that said I do believe it should start at 55 to 60 degrees without too much trouble
bobby
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jloram
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 54
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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Hi Barry:
You’re Step #4 (see below) is appropriate for starting the typical Lyc/Cont. installation, but not for the Jabiru with its standard Bing carby.
A primer is not used with a Bing, nor is there a cockpit mixture control. The throttle on the Bing must be fully closed to allow the “choke” (actually a small built-in starting carby) to function properly. Once the engine starts, the throttle can be advanced and then the “choke” closed. If the throttle is opened the least bit beyond a slow idle, during a start, the “choke” will be effectively bypassed and starting will be compromised.
-john-
Jabiru 3300, s/n 102
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 7:58 AM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Cold Start
Bobby:
The Charger or the Jumper Cables are not the problem. All the battery and starter have to do is spin the engine and as you said, that is happening. The fuel on the wheel pant should be your first hint. You are FLOODING the engine. This statement of course ASSUMES, that everything else is acceptable...???
Black Smoke is NOT a true indication of a flooded state. Black Smoke is Carbon and or Oil burning. Also, due to the prop wind and weather wind you would not see smoke unless you stood out side the plane, focused on the exhaust pipe and watched as someone else started the plane.
Generally on cold days; usually 32 F and below you need to give one or two extra primes. But, at 55 F !!! That should not be an issue.
1 - Are you priming?
2 - How much are you priming?
3 - Whoops! Can you prime? I should have asked that first.
4 - Standard start procedure:
| Quote: | Boost Pump - On (Wait till there is a slowing down of the pump)
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5 - The 1.2 mm drill hole is not much, but if it as been a practice to do such a hole, then what is needed is more AIR entering the Carb. The small hole could very well be a Choke/Carb starting issue... Because - And I'm Guessing - When you start the plane after the first start of the day you Are Not using the Choke???
Experiment a little... No Choke... A little choke... See what happens.
Barry
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 3:53 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Guys
I should have said cold NOT start.
When the outside temp is under 55 degrees my Jab 3300 will not start. I have tried jumper cables, chargers with 50 amp boost and a new battery. The engine spins very fast There is spark at the plugs and fuel dripping onto the nosewheel pant. I even tried starting fluid, choke on, choke off, throttle cracked, throttle wide open - nothing After about 45 minutes of this and letting it sit while the battery was recharging I decided to give it one more try. I tried it ( choke out - throttle closed) and it started right away as though nothing had been wrong. No flooded black smoke, no miss firing just a smooth run. Let it run until the oil temp show a small rise and shut it down. Put the cowl back on and it started immediately with no jumpers. I was a little apprehensive about leaving the field for a 90 mile lunch trek but went anyhow - it started right up after sitting on the ramp for an hour and a half and again when we stopped for a short visit at another field. It has never failed to start after the first start of the day. My choke has not been drilled out to the 1.2mm. Could that be part of the problem. I am also wondering how the fuel got on the wheelpant?? I turn the key ( mag switch ) off while working on it and back on before spinning the starter - could it be the switch grounding both coils intermittently.
I have heard of a newer coil for the left side that would allow propping or at least a lot more spark at a lower start RPM. Has anyone tried it?
Out of ideas.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:26 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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Bobby & John:
Thank you for the learning lesson guys.
I should have realized that there is no prime since there is a choke. I guess the 1.2 mm hole will be considered more now.
I'm thinking this is to reduce the MP so you don't flood the engine. And I'm with you Bobby... Those temps should not be a starting problem.
Barry
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:18 am Post subject: Cold Start |
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I recently drilled out my choke jet and it made a big difference, positive.
Tim
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 4:25 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Cold Start
Bobby & John:
Thank you for the learning lesson guys.
I should have realized that there is no prime since there is a choke. I guess the 1.2 mm hole will be considered more now.
I'm thinking this is to reduce the MP so you don't flood the engine. And I'm with you Bobby... Those temps should not be a starting problem.
Barry
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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:44 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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List
Many thanks to Gary Aman for telling about setting the air gap between the magnets and the pickup coils to .008.
I had been checking mine at every "conditional" with a .010 flat 1/2" wide feeler gauge and getting a nice snug fit. What I was not aware of was the curvature of the flywheel was causing the drag on the feeler gauge. I cut the feeler gauge in half the long way and found out that the true gap was .012 at 3 places and .014 at another.
I cut 2 pieces of a .008 thick feeler gauge and put a small section at each end of the magnet air gap near each bolt. I held the coil snugly against the feeler gauges and tightened the bolts.
After doing both coils we pushed the plane out and it started on the 3rd or 4th blade from sitting cold all night. It was not as cold as it was last Sat (mid 40's at night but warmed up to 62 ). It has never started that easily even when new. The .010 would probably be O.K. but I went with the .008 since the cold weather is just starting.
We are going to do the same thing to the 2200 at the nearby airport when the owner returns from vacation.
I will let you know how it comes out.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: Cold Start |
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Good Job Bobby...
But, you do not use flat feeler gauges on curved surfaces - As you found out. Get a few sizes of Gauge Wires... Wires as in cylindrical. You may want to make up a set of Go / No-Go gauges.
BUT! GOOD JOB and solving the problem.
Good Job Gary!
Barry
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 4:43 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]List
Many thanks to Gary Aman for telling about setting the air gap between the magnets and the pickup coils to .008.
I had been checking mine at every "conditional" with a .010 flat 1/2" wide feeler gauge and getting a nice snug fit. What I was not aware of was the curvature of the flywheel was causing the drag on the feeler gauge. I cut the feeler gauge in half the long way and found out that the true gap was .012 at 3 places and .014 at another.
I cut 2 pieces of a .008 thick feeler gauge and put a small section at each end of the magnet air gap near each bolt. I held the coil snugly against the feeler gauges and tightened the bolts.
After doing both coils we pushed the plane out and it started on the 3rd or 4th blade from sitting cold all night. It was not as cold as it was last Sat (mid 40's at night but warmed up to 62 ). It has never started that easily even when new. The .010 would probably be O.K. but I went with the .008 since the cold weather is just starting.
We are going to do the same thing to the 2200 at the nearby airport when the owner returns from vacation.
I will let you know how it comes out.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 290 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 235 hrs.
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