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GBWFH2010
Joined: 31 Jul 2011
Posts: 38
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 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:38 pm Post subject: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethanol? |
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It is getting difficult to obtain ethanol-free MOGAS in the UK. Given that Rotax equipped microlights in the UK have been operating using MOGAS containing ethanol for several years, seemingly without incident, the indications are the CAA/LAA may be willing to grant dispensation for ethanol based fuel on a type by type basis.
We know the Rotax 912 is approved for up to 10% ethanol and the fuel pipes and connectors in our Europas are the same as many microlights, so in theory these would appear to be suitable, but my question is does anybody know if the Europa fuel tank is ethanol resistant? If it is we may be able to get clearance to operate on MOGAS with ethanol.
Of course whenever possible it would always be preferable to use ethanol free fuel, but it would be good to have the flexibility to operate legally on MOGAS with ethanol when necessary.
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Gordon Grant
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Roland
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:16 am Post subject: Re: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethan |
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Hi Gordon,
FWIW, my Europa has always run on Mogas since 2001. I own it since 2011 and refuel with Premium with 5% Ethanol from the gas station after every flight without any problems. Fuel filters are absolutely clean.
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS Trigear 914
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John Wighton
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethan |
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Gordon,
I am inclined to turn the question around - where have you been buying Mogas with no Ethanol in it?
I religiously tested all fuel used in my Europa from 2009 to 2012 without getting a positive result. Then l found the specification for EN228:2008 which states that up to 5% Ethanol can be used.
I had also used BS 7800:2006 (RON 97) Super-unleaded in the belief that it would be better for the Rotax. I suffered some vapourisation issues with that fuel. Checking the spec indicates that zero Ethanol is allowed.
EN228 RON 95 fuel contains 5% Ethanol. See attachment.
There is also some usual guidance on the web, including the following:
(from sam-manicom.com/2012/03/a-question-of-ethanol/), which concludes:
"So, ethanol is here to stay and we all need to adapt, use additives, adjust mixtures, replace sensitive components etc etc etc. On the other hand, we may all have being putting ethanol in our tanks since 1988 and almost certainly since 2002. So, if it hasn’t broken yet, and if we can hang on to 5% maximum ethanol content fuels (the so-called protection grades) then we might just carry on as we are."
I recommend a really good look around and in (borrow a boroscope) your tank at each annual. Checking the finger strainers and filters should reveal any breakdown in tank treatment.
Regards
John W
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BS EN 228-2008 Regular-unleaded.pdf |
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John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD |
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rampil
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethan |
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In the US we do not use the EN series specifications for gasoline.
Except for rare sites, all automotive gasoline, regardless of Octane
rating have 10% ethanol. My Europa (A224) has been flying on a
diet of 90% mogas. There have been no issues (swelling tanks, swelling
lines, leaky carb floats, dissolved proseal, etc) for the 11 years of flight.
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brian.davies(at)clara.co.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:57 am Post subject: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethanol? |
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The latest issue of the UK CAA document CAP747 removes the blanket prohibition on the use of fuels with Ethanol so the LAA will be issuing a Technical Leaflet giving guidance on the use of fuels with Ethanol shortly.
Note that in the UK, Super- unleaded RON97 is now produced to EN228 spec so the vapour lock characteristics are now the same as RON 95.
Brian Davies
--
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tennant
Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethan |
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I have been using "pump fuel" with up to 10% Ethanol for 17 years but I always use Avgas when the temperatures are likely to reach below 0 deg C and above 30 deg C.
I had some degrading of the original fuel lines supplied by Europa in the 90's and had to change them out for standard car hoses.
No leaks or problems, and since I changed the hoses and the Jubilee clips for decent ones it does not small of petrol!!
Barry Tennant
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Barry Tennant
D-EHBT
At EDLM - Germany |
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:12 pm Post subject: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethanol? |
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Gordon,
At the shop we have seen the results of up to 10% ethanol in MOGAS.
I did a paper on the pros and cons of MOGAS vs AVGAS. See my website:
www.customflightcreations.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/ethanol.pdf
Effects ethanol on the Europa are summarized and editorialized below:
The fuel tank is unaffected by ethanol (or alcohol) of any type. The
"plastic tanks" are not as prone to water condensation as metal tanks are.
Note: Ethanol absorbs water, so read below.
The fuel filler neck (that 57 degree black rubber hose between the tank and
the FS18 cobra neck inlet tube) tends to harden with ethanol laced fuel when
the tank is filled well into the neck. It also tends to stink. Using 2
inch aluminum pipe bent or welded to the proper angle and trimmed close the
the plastic tank and FS18, cures this.
The Red stripped fuel hose used on the fuel tank bosses are fine, especially
if you change the hoses every 5 years anyway. When installed properly, the
hose doesn't contact the fuel. I've been known to use ProSeal 890 to seal
the aluminum to tank boss gap then put the hose on to assure a good seal.
The Redux used to secure the coarse screens in the tank fuel fittings tends
to get brittle with exposure to ethanol. About the 10 year point or so it's
really crumbly. It may be a good idea on the 5 year hose change to pull
these fittings and inspect /replace the Redux. Since ethanol laced fuel
cannot be used in ANY fiberglass tank (epoxy or polyester) that problem
should be expected. Pro Seal (PPG 890) fuel sealant will soften with
ethanol but holds up well with up to 10 percent ethanol.
Fuel delivery lines should be of the newer SAE J30 R-9 or better. In the
US, the EPA carb fuel lines (now a SAE J30 R 14 or better (incorporates a
synthetic flourelastomer liner) have proven to be quite reliable. The fuel
hose has an inner liner and a normal outer rubber with fiber reinforcement
in the rubber section and works well on barbed fittings. The fuel smell
does not permeate these lines. Caution, do not over tighten these lines
with your hose clamps.
The braided fuel hose sold by Aeroquip is not double lined and tends to
permeate the smell through the lines over time, but I only use them in the
mono wheel well, and have no smell problems with the MOGAS as the wheel well
is ventilated. Everywhere else in the mono, I use an SAE J30 R-14 line.
IF USING MOGAS WITH AEROQUIP RUBBER LINES, change them at 5 years as
although they seem fine with ethanol up to 10%, they do harden over time.
Teflon fuel lines are fine, but know your fuel line. PTFE fuel lines crack
just like the tank does with flexing. Do not bend them beyond their radius.
Use only proper fittings, and in our experience, these lines take a set
after a few years. If removed and bent from their original shape during
re-installation, test them as they do crack easily if flexed. Nothing lasts
forever, so I tend not to use these lines as they are expensive to purchase
and make, and over time have proven to be fragile...
The fuel pumps are OK as the Facet pumps for the 912 Series can handle up to
10% ethanol. The Piersburgs fail about every 5-7 years in some way so I
can't verify the 914 pumps over time.
The Rotax engine and its components is fine with fuel with up to 10%
ethanol. Mechanics have concerns about flying with ethanol of 10% due to
vaporization. Read on below.
Many have commented on and shared their own experiences with ethanol laced
fuel in the past. Do your research. My clients get shown a video we did on
ethanol effects on a 914 and its tank from an aircraft that sat for six
months with a half a tank of MOGAS with 10% ethanol gas. It is sobering.
Here are the problems I have experienced:
Ethanol laced fuel should not be stored in the aircraft for any longer than
30 days. Especially if in low temp high humidity conditions such as winter.
Water condenses in the fuel over time and once the ethanol reaches water
saturation, a layer of nasty scum forms in the water on the bottom of the
tank. This is some sort of fungus by the looks of it and quite tough to
clean out.
Even if the aircraft was properly decommissioned at the end of the flying
season, pull the carb float bowls, clean them, re-commission the engine and
prep for startup.
Ethanol fuel will also affect the oil so be sure to put new oil in at the
end of the season, fog the cylinders and turn the engine over to keep the
gears and cylinders coated.
When in doubt or buying a used aircraft, fuel lines which do not meet the
current fuel permeation standards tend not to leak but do allow the fuel
scent to permeate through the lines and smell up the aircraft (so you think
you have a leak) and are brittle or cracked on the ends, so do yourself a
favor and replace them.
Rotax 91X engines:
Ethanol will corrode the carb bowls if the fuel is left to sit for a few
months (many manufacturers say degradation begins in less than 30 days).
The aluminum coating in the float bowls actually flakes off the bottom.
This particulate causes premature wear in the main and needle jets and can
clog the jets.
The 912S and 914, with the higher octane rating requirements, are fine with
fresh MOGAS fuel. However, six month old premium fuel in Florida or wet
climates will absorb water, to saturation and will lower the ethanol content
and octane. I have never had a problem with detonation or pinging at high
power after the aircraft has set in the hanger up to 30 days. Plugs look
good over 50 hours of engine operation at cruise operation and local flying.
(Sorry, but I change plugs every annual and typically average only 50 to 100
hours per year, and since plugs are cheap, I don't clean them.)
Flying with fresh ethanol MOGAS has not been a problem. Up to 10K we have
had no problems with vaporization, detonation or misfires over various power
settings ranging from max power down to 65% power. Some reliable sources
have commented that after landing on a cross country fuel stop, fuel
vaporization has prevented engine start. I have not had the problem as we
properly shield and run our fuel lines clear of heat sources and always use
fresh fuel. We do Young Eagle orientation flights and have found on hot
summer days, engine restarts between two and three flights have been problem
free.
Bottom line is, don't leave ethanol laced fuel in the system over a month
(my opinion) and if the plane is to be stored for any length of time (over
30 days), use a fuel stabilizer and run it through the engine to assure the
fuel additive fills the float bowls. Even if the aircraft was properly
decommissioned at the end of the flying season, pull the carb float bowls,
clean them, re-commission the engine and prep for startup. Drain the
MOGAS and refill with fresh fuel.
OR, drain or burn off the ethanol MOGAS and fill completely with 100LL
AVGAS. It is fairly easy to just use AVGAS in your last couple of tanks of
the year then ad a fuel stabilizer if you like, and put the covers on the
plane until flying again. Some aviation fuel suppliers say that 100LL does
lose some of its lead and should not be used if stagnant in the tanks for a
year, but Shell Aviation experts says properly stored and free of water,
AVGAS lasts for years with no degradation.
I do not use ethanol fuel in my 914 any longer as our local MOGAS fuel
suppliers can only supply 92 octane, and can't guarantee it being that high
after only a short period of time. I do not leave even AVGAS in my tank for
over six months without pumping out a large amount to assure the bottom of
the tank, filters and float bowls are clean, and the fuel has the right
color, odor and cleanliness. I change oil every 25 hours with AVGAS and use
a fuel additive (Decalin) to keep the lead in suspension. Works Great. The
fuel price difference and extra oil cost is made back in consistent engine
operation and piece of mind.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "GBWFH2010" <gaxuk2001(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 6:38 PM
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with
ethanol?
| Quote: |
It is getting difficult to obtain ethanol-free MOGAS in the UK. Given that
Rotax equipped microlights in the UK have been operating using MOGAS
containing ethanol for several years, seemingly without incident, the
indications are the CAA/LAA may be willing to grant dispensation for
ethanol based fuel on a type by type basis.
We know the Rotax 912 is approved for up to 10% ethanol and the fuel pipes
and connectors in our Europas are the same as many microlights, so in
theory these would appear to be suitable, but my question is does anybody
know if the Europa fuel tank is ethanol resistant? If it is we may be able
to get clearance to operate on MOGAS with ethanol.
Of course whenever possible it would always be preferable to use ethanol
free fuel, but it would be good to have the flexibility to operate legally
on MOGAS with ethanol when necessary.
--------
Gordon Grant
G-BWFH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=434794#434794
|
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wtcef(at)arn.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethanol? |
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Hi Bud,
Thanks for all this good information. We have used Ethanol free mogas almost exclusively...locally....trips are a different story as most airports don't keep mogas let alone e free gas. So, we carry lead binding solution.
Anyway, what about the fuel caps? Have they been shipped out yet?
Hal Carpenter-Amarillo, TX
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bud Yerly" <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)>
Gordon,
At the shop we have seen the results of up to 10% ethanol in MOGAS.
I did a paper on the pros and cons of MOGAS vs AVGAS. See my website: www.customflightcreations.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/ethanol.pdf
Effects ethanol on the Europa are summarized and editorialized below:
The fuel tank is unaffected by ethanol (or alcohol) of any type. The "plastic tanks" are not as prone to water condensation as metal tanks are.
Note: Ethanol absorbs water, so read below.
The fuel filler neck (that 57 degree black rubber hose between the tank and the FS18 cobra neck inlet tube) tends to harden with ethanol laced fuel when the tank is filled well into the neck. It also tends to stink. Using 2 inch aluminum pipe bent or welded to the proper angle and trimmed close the the plastic tank and FS18, cures this.
The Red stripped fuel hose used on the fuel tank bosses are fine, especially if you change the hoses every 5 years anyway. When installed properly, the hose doesn't contact the fuel. I've been known to use ProSeal 890 to seal the aluminum to tank boss gap then put the hose on to assure a good seal.
The Redux used to secure the coarse screens in the tank fuel fittings tends to get brittle with exposure to ethanol. About the 10 year point or so it's really crumbly. It may be a good idea on the 5 year hose change to pull these fittings and inspect /replace the Redux. Since ethanol laced fuel cannot be used in ANY fiberglass tank (epoxy or polyester) that problem should be expected. Pro Seal (PPG 890) fuel sealant will soften with ethanol but holds up well with up to 10 percent ethanol.
Fuel delivery lines should be of the newer SAE J30 R-9 or better. In the US, the EPA carb fuel lines (now a SAE J30 R 14 or better (incorporates a synthetic flourelastomer liner) have proven to be quite reliable. The fuel hose has an inner liner and a normal outer rubber with fiber reinforcement in the rubber section and works well on barbed fittings. The fuel smell does not permeate these lines. Caution, do not over tighten these lines with your hose clamps.
The braided fuel hose sold by Aeroquip is not double lined and tends to permeate the smell through the lines over time, but I only use them in the mono wheel well, and have no smell problems with the MOGAS as the wheel well is ventilated. Everywhere else in the mono, I use an SAE J30 R-14 line. IF USING MOGAS WITH AEROQUIP RUBBER LINES, change them at 5 years as although they seem fine with ethanol up to 10%, they do harden over time.
Teflon fuel lines are fine, but know your fuel line. PTFE fuel lines crack just like the tank does with flexing. Do not bend them beyond their radius. Use only proper fittings, and in our experience, these lines take a set after a few years. If removed and bent from their original shape during re-installation, test them as they do crack easily if flexed. Nothing lasts forever, so I tend not to use these lines as they are expensive to purchase and make, and over time have proven to be fragile...
The fuel pumps are OK as the Facet pumps for the 912 Series can handle up to 10% ethanol. The Piersburgs fail about every 5-7 years in some way so I can't verify the 914 pumps over time.
The Rotax engine and its components is fine with fuel with up to 10% ethanol. Mechanics have concerns about flying with ethanol of 10% due to vaporization. Read on below.
Many have commented on and shared their own experiences with ethanol laced fuel in the past. Do your research. My clients get shown a video we did on ethanol effects on a 914 and its tank from an aircraft that sat for six months with a half a tank of MOGAS with 10% ethanol gas. It is sobering.
Here are the problems I have experienced:
Ethanol laced fuel should not be stored in the aircraft for any longer than 30 days. Especially if in low temp high humidity conditions such as winter. Water condenses in the fuel over time and once the ethanol reaches water saturation, a layer of nasty scum forms in the water on the bottom of the tank. This is some sort of fungus by the looks of it and quite tough to clean out.
Even if the aircraft was properly decommissioned at the end of the flying season, pull the carb float bowls, clean them, re-commission the engine and prep for startup.
Ethanol fuel will also affect the oil so be sure to put new oil in at the end of the season, fog the cylinders and turn the engine over to keep the gears and cylinders coated.
When in doubt or buying a used aircraft, fuel lines which do not meet the current fuel permeation standards tend not to leak but do allow the fuel scent to permeate through the lines and smell up the aircraft (so you think you have a leak) and are brittle or cracked on the ends, so do yourself a favor and replace them.
Rotax 91X engines:
Ethanol will corrode the carb bowls if the fuel is left to sit for a few months (many manufacturers say degradation begins in less than 30 days). The aluminum coating in the float bowls actually flakes off the bottom. This particulate causes premature wear in the main and needle jets and can clog the jets.
The 912S and 914, with the higher octane rating requirements, are fine with fresh MOGAS fuel. However, six month old premium fuel in Florida or wet climates will absorb water, to saturation and will lower the ethanol content and octane. I have never had a problem with detonation or pinging at high power after the aircraft has set in the hanger up to 30 days. Plugs look good over 50 hours of engine operation at cruise operation and local flying. (Sorry, but I change plugs every annual and typically average only 50 to 100 hours per year, and since plugs are cheap, I don't clean them.)
Flying with fresh ethanol MOGAS has not been a problem. Up to 10K we have had no problems with vaporization, detonation or misfires over various power settings ranging from max power down to 65% power. Some reliable sources have commented that after landing on a cross country fuel stop, fuel vaporization has prevented engine start. I have not had the problem as we properly shield and run our fuel lines clear of heat sources and always use fresh fuel. We do Young Eagle orientation flights and have found on hot summer days, engine restarts between two and three flights have been problem free.
Bottom line is, don't leave ethanol laced fuel in the system over a month (my opinion) and if the plane is to be stored for any length of time (over 30 days), use a fuel stabilizer and run it through the engine to assure the fuel additive fills the float bowls. Even if the aircraft was properly decommissioned at the end of the flying season, pull the carb float bowls, clean them, re-commission the engine and prep for startup. Drain the MOGAS and refill with fresh fuel.
OR, drain or burn off the ethanol MOGAS and fill completely with 100LL AVGAS. It is fairly easy to just use AVGAS in your last couple of tanks of the year then ad a fuel stabilizer if you like, and put the covers on the plane until flying again. Some aviation fuel suppliers say that 100LL does lose some of its lead and should not be used if stagnant in the tanks for a year, but Shell Aviation experts says properly stored and free of water, AVGAS lasts for years with no degradation.
I do not use ethanol fuel in my 914 any longer as our local MOGAS fuel suppliers can only supply 92 octane, and can't guarantee it being that high after only a short period of time. I do not leave even AVGAS in my tank for over six months without pumping out a large amount to assure the bottom of the tank, filters and float bowls are clean, and the fuel has the right color, odor and cleanliness. I change oil every 25 hours with AVGAS and use a fuel additive (Decalin) to keep the lead in suspension. Works Great. The fuel price difference and extra oil cost is made back in consistent engine operation and piece of mind.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "GBWFH2010" <gaxuk2001(at)gmail.com (gaxuk2001(at)gmail.com)>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 6:38 PM
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethanol?
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "GBWFH2010" <gaxuk2001(at)gmail.com (gaxuk2001(at)gmail.com)>
It is getting difficult to obtain ethanol-free MOGAS in the UK. Given that Rotax equipped microlights in the UK have been operating using MOGAS containing ethanol for several years, seemingly without incident, the indications are the CAA/LAA may be willing to grant dispensation for ethanol based fuel on a type by type basis.
We know the Rotax 912 is approved for up to 10% ethanol and the fuel pipes and connectors in our Europas are the same as many microlights, so in theory these would appear to be suitable, but my question is does anybody know if the Europa fuel tank is ethanol resistant? If it is we may be able to get clearance to operate on MOGAS with ethanol.
Of course whenever possible it would always be preferable to use ethanol free fuel, but it would be good to have the flexibility to operate legally on MOGAS with ethanol when necessary.
--------
Gordon Grant
G-BWFH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=434794#434794
|
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GBWFH2010
Joined: 31 Jul 2011
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Europa fuel system - is it suitable for MOGAS with ethan |
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Thank you to all who have replied. This is what I like about this forum, so much good information from people who know and understand Europas.
To answer John W question, where have I been getting MOGAS without ethanol? I have been using BP Ultimate Unleaded without any problems, since Malcolm McBride of LAA Engineering published the following in the July 2013 LAA Magazine:
“Therefore we can revise our advice to pilots that if they can no longer source ethanol free 95RON fuel but can obtain 97+RON fuel which complies with BS EN228, then it is a legally acceptable alternative"
Nearly all the fuel company's 'Super' or 'Premium' fuels are labelled EN228 on the pumps and until very recently have been ethanol-free. In the South East BP are now adding ethanol, but so far Esso are not. The frustrating thing is the situation differs from region to region and it is difficult getting information from the oil companies. So we know methanol is coming, hence my initial question.
I was interested in the CAA's latest CAP747 document and encouraged by Brian stating the LAA will be issuing their own information shortly.
Finally Bud, what can I say? Thank you for the incredibly detailed information. I will be following this very carefully if we get permitted to use ethanol fuel. It is also great to hear you are back in the air again.
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