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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: Off Field Landing |
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List,
On 12 / 3 / 2014 about 12:45 PM I started out to fly to a nearby airport to visit and to have lunch.
Using my pre-take off check list I noticed my oil pressure was 37 psi ( normal )
About 12 minutes into the flight at 2,000' throttled back to 18.5 " MP I got an audio signal in my earphones "Low oil pressure" By the time I looked at the gauge it was going thru 10 psi to zero in about 3 seconds.
I started looking for a place to land and about 20 seconds later the prop stopped. A two lane highway was the only place I had a chance to put her down.
I did a couple of S turns to let a pulp wood truck get further down the road since he was going the same way I wanted to land. I also did a few S turns to land short of an overpass but I wanted to land near there to have a place to pull off the road without going in a ditch. ( ditches and trees were on both sides of the road ).
I could hardly get out of the plane because my legs were shaking so bad. There was no damage to the plane or me and I managed to coast into a gas station parking lot.
A lot of good friends came to my rescue and we had the wings off and back in the hangar in about 3 hours.
At first I thought the engine quit due to oil pressure failure.
We were disassembling the engine and discovered that one of the three magnets on the flywheel had extended out and struck the steel plates in both ignition coils. This would have caused loss of ignition to both magnetos and the engine would wind down. This in turn would show low and then no oil pressure. Seconds later the prop stopped windmilling probably because I had slowed to 80 mph while looking for a place to land. The stoppage was caused by ignition failure not oil pressure failure. There was no sudden stoppage or seizure. After a while I was able to turn the engine easily by hand but we heard a metal to metal grinding noise. The crunching we heard was the frayed coil plates rubbing against the flywheel / magnets. We removed the coils and the engine turns fine with no noise. We found some of the screws holding the magnets to the flywheel at less the good torque. A contributing factor could be that I had set the air gap to .008 as recommended by others to aid in cold starting but I do not think that was a problem. I had about 45 minutes on a previous flight with this setting and about 12 minutes into this flight when the failure occurred.
I am sending an oil sample out for analysis just to make sure there is no metal but the sump was clean except for a few small pieces of carbon. We cut the filter open and it was clean.
I am looking for a used flywheel for the 3300 and the address of the after market magneto coils that start at a much lower rpm.
Also I want to change out the three phase alternator coils while I have it apart.
Thanks for any help.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Status - Flying 236 hrs.
Do Not Archive
[quote][b]
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matronics(at)rtist.nl
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: Off Field Landing |
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Wow, incredible story, Bobby. Glad you made it out so well!
This is the first time I ever hear of the magnets coming lose, but others may chime in with their war stories. Could it be that one of the coils was actually too close (or the bolts holding it worked themselves loose), causing a coil-magnet collision that also damaged the bolts of the magnet? If the magnets had not moved in the past 230 hours, and the coils are the last thing you worked on, that's a more likely cause.
Also, I'm puzzled about your 3-phase alternator remark. I have 3300 S/N 551 and it came with a single phase alternator. According to the overhaul manual, 3-phase were phased out at serial number 164, a looong time before yours. How did you end up with one of those?
As for ignition coils, I had good results with Honda 30500-Z1C-023 coils:
http://www.hondalawnparts.com/pages/CustomCatalog/Product/1426648
Rob
On 12/10/2014 9:57 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) wrote:
[quote] List,
On 12 / 3 / 2014 about 12:45 PM I started out to fly to a nearby airport to visit and to have lunch.
Using my pre-take off check list I noticed my oil pressure was 37 psi ( normal )
About 12 minutes into the flight at 2,000' throttled back to 18.5 " MPÂ I got an audio signal in my earphones "Low oil pressure" By the time I looked at the gauge it was going thru 10 psi to zero in about 3 seconds.
I started looking for a place to land and about 20 seconds later the prop stopped. A two lane highway was the only place I had a chance to put her down.
I did a couple of S turns to let a pulp wood truck get further down the road since he was going the same way I wanted to land. I also did a few S turns to land short of an overpass but I wanted to land near there to have a place to pull off the road without going in a ditch. ( ditches and trees were on both sides of the road ).
I could hardly get out of the plane because my legs were shaking so bad. There was no damage to the plane or me and I managed to coast into a gas station parking lot.
 A lot of good friends came to my rescue and we had the wings off and back in the hangar in about 3 hours.
At first I thought the engine quit due to oil pressure failure.
We were disassembling the engine and discovered that one of the three magnets on the flywheel had extended out and struck the steel plates in both ignition coils. This would have caused loss of ignition to both magnetos and the engine would wind down. This in turn would show low and then no oil pressure. Seconds later the prop stopped windmilling probably because I had slowed to 80 mph while looking for a place to land. The stoppage was caused by ignition failure not oil pressure failure. There was no sudden stoppage or seizure. After a while I was able to turn the engine easily by hand but we heard a metal to metal grinding noise. The crunching we heard was the frayed coil plates rubbing against the flywheel / magnets. We removed the coils and the engine turns fine with no noise. We found some of the screws holding the magnets to the flywheel at less the good torque. A contributing factor could be that I had set the air gap to .008 as recommended by others to aid in cold starting but I do not think that was a problem. I had about 45 minutes on a previous flight with this setting and about 12 minutes into this flight when the failure occurred.
I am sending an oil sample out for analysis just to make sure there is no metal but the sump was clean except for a few small pieces of carbon. We cut the filter open and it was clean.
I am looking for a used flywheel for the 3300 and the address of the after market magneto coils that start at a much lower rpm.
Also I want to change out the three phase alternator coils while I have it apart.
Thanks for any help.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Status - Flying 236 hrs.
Do Not Archive
[b]
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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject: Off Field Landing |
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Bobby , Fine job putting her down an troubleshooting !
Chris Davis
KXP 503 492 hrs
Glider Pilot
Disabled from crash building Firefly
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:07 PM, "BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net" <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net> wrote:
List,
On 12 / 3 / 2014 about 12:45 PM I started out to fly to a nearby airport to visit and to have lunch.
Using my pre-take off check list I noticed my oil pressure was 37 psi ( normal )
About 12 minutes into the flight at 2,000' throttled back to 18.5 " MP I got an audio signal in my earphones "Low oil pressure" By the time I looked at the gauge it was going thru 10 psi to zero in about 3 seconds.
I started looking for a place to land and about 20 seconds later the prop stopped. A two lane highway was the only place I had a chance to put her down.
I did a couple of S turns to let a pulp wood truck get further down the road since he was going the same way I wanted to land. I also did a few S turns to land short of an overpass but I wanted to land near there to have a place to pull off the road without going in a ditch. ( ditches and trees were on both sides of the road ).
I could hardly get out of the plane because my legs were shaking so bad. There was no damage to the plane or me and I managed to coast into a gas station parking lot.
A lot of good friends came to my rescue and we had the wings off and back in the hangar in about 3 hours.
At first I thought the engine quit due to oil pressure failure.
We were disassembling the engine and discovered that one of the three magnets on the flywheel had extended out and struck the steel plates in both ignition coils. This would have caused loss of ignition to both magnetos and the engine would wind down. This in turn would show low and then no oil pressure. Seconds later the prop stopped windmilling probably because I had slowed to 80 mph while looking for a place to land. The stoppage was caused by ignition failure not oil pressure failure. There was no sudden stoppage or seizure. After a while I was able to turn the engine easily by hand but we heard a metal to metal grinding noise. The crunching we heard was the frayed coil plates rubbing against the flywheel / magnets. We removed the coils and the engine turns fine with no noise. We found some of the screws holding the magnets to the flywheel at less the good torque. A contributing factor could be that I had set the air gap to .008 as recommended by others to aid in cold starting but I do not think that was a problem. I had about 45 minutes on a previous flight with this setting and about 12 minutes into this flight when the failure occurred.
I am sending an oil sample out for analysis just to make sure there is no metal but the sump was clean except for a few small pieces of carbon. We cut the filter open and it was clean.
I am looking for a used flywheel for the 3300 and the address of the after market magneto coils that start at a much lower rpm.
Also I want to change out the three phase alternator coils while I have it apart.
Thanks for any help.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Status - Flying 236 hrs.
Do Not Archive
[quote]
[b]
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:53 pm Post subject: Off Field Landing |
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GOOD JOB Bobby...
Yea, my kneed would have been knocking also.
As you noted, the clearance is very close but, if the magnets did not move there would not have been a problem. So, again as you noted, check the method that holds in the magnets.
If, others have noticed this type of problem maybe there should be some type of Service Bulletin or AD equivalent to address this issue.
This is one of those cases where I would address it with Belts & Suspenders.
Barry
\
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:57 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]List,
On 12 / 3 / 2014 about 12:45 PM I started out to fly to a nearby airport to visit and to have lunch.
Using my pre-take off check list I noticed my oil pressure was 37 psi ( normal )
About 12 minutes into the flight at 2,000' throttled back to 18.5 " MP I got an audio signal in my earphones "Low oil pressure" By the time I looked at the gauge it was going thru 10 psi to zero in about 3 seconds.
I started looking for a place to land and about 20 seconds later the prop stopped. A two lane highway was the only place I had a chance to put her down.
I did a couple of S turns to let a pulp wood truck get further down the road since he was going the same way I wanted to land. I also did a few S turns to land short of an overpass but I wanted to land near there to have a place to pull off the road without going in a ditch. ( ditches and trees were on both sides of the road ).
I could hardly get out of the plane because my legs were shaking so bad. There was no damage to the plane or me and I managed to coast into a gas station parking lot.
A lot of good friends came to my rescue and we had the wings off and back in the hangar in about 3 hours.
At first I thought the engine quit due to oil pressure failure.
We were disassembling the engine and discovered that one of the three magnets on the flywheel had extended out and struck the steel plates in both ignition coils. This would have caused loss of ignition to both magnetos and the engine would wind down. This in turn would show low and then no oil pressure. Seconds later the prop stopped windmilling probably because I had slowed to 80 mph while looking for a place to land. The stoppage was caused by ignition failure not oil pressure failure. There was no sudden stoppage or seizure. After a while I was able to turn the engine easily by hand but we heard a metal to metal grinding noise. The crunching we heard was the frayed coil plates rubbing against the flywheel / magnets. We removed the coils and the engine turns fine with no noise. We found some of the screws holding the magnets to the flywheel at less the good torque. A contributing factor could be that I had set the air gap to .008 as recommended by others to aid in cold starting but I do not think that was a problem. I had about 45 minutes on a previous flight with this setting and about 12 minutes into this flight when the failure occurred.
I am sending an oil sample out for analysis just to make sure there is no metal but the sump was clean except for a few small pieces of carbon. We cut the filter open and it was clean.
I am looking for a used flywheel for the 3300 and the address of the after market magneto coils that start at a much lower rpm.
Also I want to change out the three phase alternator coils while I have it apart.
Thanks for any help.
Bobby ( age 76 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Status - Flying 236 hrs.
Do Not Archive
| Quote: |
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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cffd66(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:47 pm Post subject: Off Field Landing |
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I am not sure of the flywheel radius, but a 54 degree F rise in temperature will cause a 6 inch diameter of aluminum to expand almost .008 inches. This would cause the mag coil to hit the flywheel. I set my gap to .016 inches and it starts when cold (40 deg F). Other wise preheat engine. Chuck D.
[quote][b]
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cffd66(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:58 am Post subject: Off Field Landing |
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Should have read 12 inch diameter!!!
I am not sure of the flywheel radius, but a 54 degree F rise in temperature will cause a 6 inch diameter of aluminum to expand almost .008 inches.This would cause the mag coil to hit the flywheel. I set my gap to.016 inches and it starts when cold (40 deg F). Other wise preheat engine.
Chuck D.
[quote][b]
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Tim Juhl
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Off Field Landing |
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Bobby,
You did one heck of a fine job getting that airplane down. You've got the right stuff my friend!
I'm curious if anything like this has happened to anyone before. Also, as others have pointed out, the coincidence of the coil air gap change and the failure makes one wonder. Did the Magnet come loose and hit the coil or vice versa?
Living in Michigan, I was planning to change my gap to .008 but right now I'm not so sure.
Keep us updated if you learn any more.
Tim
FWIW - I found this video of Bobby's landing rollout....sweet! http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/local/2014/12/03/plane-highway-landing/19857011/
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_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring! |
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UK Clive
Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:30 am Post subject: Off Field Landing |
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I recently had to fit new magnets. The metalwork that houses them is machined vary accurately as is the recess that they sit in. The screws that hold them in the recess are mickey mouse alloy and easy to trash when taking out so care needs to be taken. They did seem to do their job well and weren’t coming out easily. My impression of the set up was a good solid installation.
Hearing Bobby’s story, well done from me also, I agree closing the gap below spec is something we should avoid. Might not be the cause but if coils and magnets collide then it seems to get very messy.
BR, CJ
| Quote: | On 14 Dec 2014, at 01:14, Tim Juhl <timjuhl(at)frontier.com> wrote:
Bobby,
You did one heck of a fine job getting that airplane down. You've got the right stuff my friend!
I'm curious if anything like this has happened to anyone before. Also, as others have pointed out, the coincidence of the coil air gap change and the failure makes one wonder. Did the Magnet come loose and hit the coil or vice versa?
Living in Michigan, I was planning to change my gap to .008 but right now I'm not so sure.
Keep us updated if you learn any more.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435697#435697
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cffd66(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: Off Field Landing |
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Tim,
In 2002 my 2200, sn 988, came with the mag gaps set at .025". I had two 6 volt lawnmower batteries in series (now have a 12 V Odyssey). A bit low on power, but they started it ok above 60 F. Below 60 F was marginal. Pete said gap them at .010". But I just went to .016" and when the prop spun fast it would start even at 40 F. Pre heating helped below 40 F. One of my magnets is a bit closer than the other, I gap using the closest one. Using .016" work fine for me, I would be cautious going to .008 inches.
My 2 cents worth.
Chuck D.
N701TX
[quote][b]
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Tim Juhl
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Off Field Landing |
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As Bobby pointed out, having the coils and magnets collide can ruin your day. It is fortunate for him that he kept his cool and did an outstanding job of getting the airplane down in one piece. As an old CFI, I can tell you that when I do a simulated engine failure on a BFR, about half the pilots sit there waiting for me to tell them what to do next..... scary!
I'm going to leave the coils at 0.010 - I'm also going to check the clearance on all the magnets just to see how consistent they are. If the magnet screws are as Clive describes it probably wouldn't be a great idea to try tightening them periodically.....
Here in Michigan, I preheat below 40° anyway - not only is it easier to start an engine but I believe it cuts down on internal wear. I use a portable electric heater blowing into a piece of dryer hose. I plug it in, go to town for a coffee and by the time I get back it is ready to go 
Clive, I wonder why you had to fit new magnets?
Tim
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_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring! |
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UK Clive
Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:26 pm Post subject: Off Field Landing |
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'Clive, I wonder why you had to fit new magnets?’
So do I, I had the engine apart for the lifter downgrade and then had trouble starting it. After some messing with the timing, I convinced myself I had inadvertently moved it, I realised the ignition magnets were weak (bolt pull test). Why?, I don’t know, was careful with the handling of the flywheel, to was stored in the roof of my garage for a few months. Maybe I dropped it but I don’t recall. Anyhow, that picture of the bolt test I have seen in the manual for years is what showed me the problem, didn’t need a spring balance just compared it to a nearby 2200. Alternator magnets Ok and output as high as ever.
Strange one, I would suggest real paranoia with flywheel handing…..
Regards, Clive
2200+3300 in UK
| Quote: | On 14 Dec 2014, at 22:20, Tim Juhl <timjuhl(at)frontier.com> wrote:
As Bobby pointed out, having the coils and magnets collide can ruin your day. It is fortunate for him that he kept his cool and did an outstanding job of getting the airplane down in one piece. As an old CFI, I can tell you that when I do a simulated engine failure on a BFR, about half the pilots sit there waiting for me to tell them what to do next..... scary!
I'm going to leave the coils at 0.010 - I'm also going to check the clearance on all the magnets just to see how consistent they are. If the magnet screws are as Clive describes it probably wouldn't be a great idea to try tightening them periodically.....
Here in Michigan, I preheat below 40° anyway - not only is it easier to start an engine but I believe it cuts down on internal wear. I use a portable electric heater blowing into a piece of dryer hose. I plug it in, go to town for a coffee and by the time I get back it is ready to go
Clive, I wonder why you had to fit new magnets?
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435719#435719
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