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Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

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Lenleg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:52 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Flew down to LBT to see my parents yesterday ... beautiful skies but lots  of 

bumps ... climbed to 5500' in search of smooth air ... only found pockets of  

it ... BUT ... I did find one of the strongest tailwinds I have ever 

experienced  ... I was seeing 195kt ground speed at 21 inches of MP and only 2300 RPM 

.. I  even pulled back a little for the bumps.

 

My airspeed question is this ... the indicated airspeed was about 155kts  ... 

well within normal range ... but the groudspeed was extremely high .. then I  

was getting some very good bumps .... my concern was whether I was 

approaching  max speed ...

 

Is max speed ... only indicated airspeed or should you also be concerned  

with groundspeed?

 

Len

jclarkmail(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

I could be wrong but I think you want to worry about "true airspeed".



Remember when Spaceship One did those uncommanded rolls at Mach whatever, I

**think** Mike Melville said his  true airspeed was around 140 kts! Thus the

airframe was OK.



James



(I saw 150+ kts in the Piper enroute to Florida yesterday.)



On 1/16/06, Lenleg(at)aol.com <Lenleg(at)aol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 Flew down to LBT to see my parents yesterday ... beautiful skies but

 lots  of

 bumps ... climbed to 5500' in search of smooth air ... only found pockets

 of

 it ... BUT ... I did find one of the strongest tailwinds I have ever

 experienced  ... I was seeing 195kt ground speed at 21 inches of MP and

 only 2300 RPM

 ... I  even pulled back a little for the bumps.



 My airspeed question is this ... the indicated airspeed was about

 155kts  ...

 well within normal range ... but the groudspeed was extremely high .. then

 I

 was getting some very good bumps .... my concern was whether I was

 approaching  max speed ...



 Is max speed ... only indicated airspeed or should you also be concerned

 with groundspeed?



 Len






	




--

This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at

james(at)nextupventures.com .

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Guys, _don't_ tell him the answer   If he throttles back every time he gets a stiff tailwind, even us slower RV's will be able to do the Joan Baez on him- you know, "blew by you."

 

C'mon, Leggs- you know the only time an airframe cares about groundspeed is when it's in contact with the ground.  You're not the guy who keeps re-starting the deadly downwind turn thing on the internet, are you? 

 

Just pullin' your chain, buddy.  Have a good week & enjoy all those commercial flights to Florida. 

 

-Stormy

 

--

bill28104(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

not to worry...the wind was carrying you forward

across gnd. at hi speed..had you been going other way,

you would be crawling vs. gnd, but still doing 155k+

in airstream.,



--- Lenleg(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Lenleg(at)aol.com

 

 Flew down to LBT to see my parents yesterday ...

 beautiful skies but lots  of 

 bumps ... climbed to 5500' in search of smooth air

 ... only found pockets of  

 it ... BUT ... I did find one of the strongest

 tailwinds I have ever 

 experienced  ... I was seeing 195kt ground speed at

 21 inches of MP and only 2300 RPM 

 ... I  even pulled back a little for the bumps.

  

 My airspeed question is this ... the indicated

 airspeed was about 155kts  ... 

 well within normal range ... but the groudspeed was

 extremely high .. then I  

 was getting some very good bumps .... my concern was

 whether I was 

 approaching  max speed ...

  

 Is max speed ... only indicated airspeed or should

 you also be concerned  

 with groundspeed?

  

 Len

 

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RVSouthEast-List



 Admin.

John Clark

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 10
Location: Ashburn, VA

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Hi Len.  Keep your eye on IAS.  Ground speed is just a freeby even if it is 

very high.  IAS determines the structural load.  Just keep is below Vne and 

below Va in very gusty conditions.  A gust that is going to break something would 

normally be very, very uncomfortable.  Slow down to reach a comfort level 

that is tolerable.



As engineers, simples statements require a few dozen footnotes.  



Not sure of the V speeds for your airplane but for the -9A:  Vne is 182 KIAS 

- go past that speed and you are pushing the structural limits and flutter 

margin.  With gusts, your structure may be taking a second hit in addition to the 

high speed.  That is why there is a yellow arc.  You may not be protected 

near Vne with moderate control inputs.  At Vne, no gusts, minimum control input.  

Va is 102 KIAS (maneuver speed) - you can maneuver (pull Gs) or get hit by 

severe vertical gusts and, in theory, not break the wings off before stall.  You 

may not be protected when you are pulling max Gs at Va and input full aileron 

at the same time for example (one of those double hits the designers don't 

worry about).



The only place where TAS may be an issue on some airplanes is at very high 

altitudes, with a high horsepower engine, such as the Rockets, or in a redline 

dive from, say 20,000 feet.  You may create a situation when TAS exceeds Vne by 

a wide margin even though IAS is well below below Vne.  Sometimes flutter is 

TAS driven, not IAS driven.  Just not a problem for most of us.  



If the gusts are really beating you, slowing down as you did is the perfect 

solution.  If you are reasonably comfortable, that is the jolts are not too 

bad, you are most likely safe.  If the turbulence is severe, and you are very 

uncomfortable, slow down to Va.  That does two things, takes the jolt out of the 

gusts and buys a design level protection from structural failure.  



In short for the standard RVers, IAS for structure and flutter, TAS is not a 

worry, GS - the more the better.



I will be running around today, to the dump, to the hangar, maybe even get in 

some time. Give me a call if you want to discuss some more.  Talking is 

easier than typing, hand waving in person is best.  Regards, John Clark  

202-257-0121.

_________________
John Clark
RV-9A 90512
N6699

coop85(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Len,

   I hope you didn't/won't have the same winds working against you on the

return trip.  As for airspeed concerns, CAS is the only issue when it comes

to bumps.  The reason is that is what your wing cares about regarding stalls

and over-G.  If you fly at or below maneuvering speed, CAS, then you can't

hurt the airplane.  A little slower will make it even more comfortable and

reduce any potential problems caused by asymmetric G in case things get

really bad.



Marcus



--

sawad13(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Len, you can't be serious!  Every pilot knows - or should know - that 

airplanes fly on airspeed. Ground speed is a by product of your airspeed and 

wind speed and direction. The airplane does care one bit what your ground 

speed is.



That sounds like it must have been pretty cool going that fast.



Ron Awad



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: bill crothers <bill28104(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 05:18:27 -0800 (PST)






not to worry...the wind was carrying you forward

across gnd. at hi speed..had you been going other way,

you would be crawling vs. gnd, but still doing 155k+

in airstream.,



--- Lenleg(at)aol.com wrote:



 > 

 > Lenleg(at)aol.com

 >

 > Flew down to LBT to see my parents yesterday ...

 > beautiful skies but lots  of

 > bumps ... climbed to 5500' in search of smooth air

 > ... only found pockets of

 > it ... BUT ... I did find one of the strongest

 > tailwinds I have ever

 > experienced  ... I was seeing 195kt ground speed at

 > 21 inches of MP and only 2300 RPM

 > ... I  even pulled back a little for the bumps.

 >

 > My airspeed question is this ... the indicated

 > airspeed was about 155kts  ...

 > well within normal range ... but the groudspeed was

 > extremely high .. then I

 > was getting some very good bumps .... my concern was

 > whether I was

 > approaching  max speed ...

 >

 > Is max speed ... only indicated airspeed or should

 > you also be concerned

 > with groundspeed?

 >

 > Len

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > browse

 > Subscriptions page,

 > FAQ,

 > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RVSouthEast-List

 >

 > Admin.

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >






	


On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 

get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

Lenleg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

I almost did not post the question to the list because I knew I would get  

some kind of smart _ss answer from someone ... but then again ... I knew I would 

 get it from Stormy ....I was worried about the other people !!!

 

Len

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/16/2006 8:18:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,  

sportav8r(at)aol.com writes:



Guys,  _don't_ tell him the answer   If he throttles back every time he 

gets  a stiff tailwind, even us slower RV's will be able to do the Joan Baez on 

him-  you know, "blew by you."



C'mon, Leggs- you know the only time an  airframe cares about groundspeed is 

when it's in contact with the  ground.  You're not the guy who keeps 

re-starting the deadly downwind  turn thing on the internet, are you?

rwayne(at)gamewood.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Good article recently in RVator about how an airplane can surpass Vne (based

on true airspeed) while flying at a much lower indicated airspeed (high

density alt) and get significant flutter. Happened to the guy in an RV4 on

descent.



Wayne

--

Lenleg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Against my better judgement ... I am going to reply to this ...

 

I felt I knew the right answer ... but I also wanted to run it by other  

pilots to make sure I knew the right answer and thus operating safely ...what I  

do not need nor does anyone else wanting to ask a question ... is this type of  

answer ...

 

If you want to help with the question ... I welcome it ... if not ... keep  

it to yourself !!!

 

Len

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/16/2006 9:26:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,  

sawad13(at)msn.com writes:



Len, you  can't be serious!  Every pilot knows - or should know - that  

airplanes fly on airspeed. Ground speed is a by product of your airspeed  and 

wind speed and direction. The airplane does care one bit what your  ground 

speed is.

sawad13(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a smarty pants. To be fair, ALOT of people in 

aviation do not totally understand the difference between groundspeeds and 

airspeeds - one of the reasons stalls and spins are so common in the traffic 

pattern.



On the gyroplane forum we have a big debate in the threads about once every 

3 months because someone who doesn't know better makes a comment or has a 

question about how they believe flying into the wind makes more lift than 

flying with the wind.... or that flying into the wind you need less power to 

maintain altitude etc.... all kinds of misconceptions.



So don't feel alone. You live and you learn. Again sorry if my reply seemed 

rude or not helpful.



Ron Awad



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Lenleg(at)aol.com

Reply-To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:04:10 EST




Against my better judgement ... I am going to reply to this ...



I felt I knew the right answer ... but I also wanted to run it by other

pilots to make sure I knew the right answer and thus operating safely 

...what I

do not need nor does anyone else wanting to ask a question ... is this type 

of

answer ...



If you want to help with the question ... I welcome it ... if not ... keep

it to yourself !!!



Len



In a message dated 1/16/2006 9:26:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,

sawad13(at)msn.com writes:



Len, you  can't be serious!  Every pilot knows - or should know - that

airplanes fly on airspeed. Ground speed is a by product of your airspeed  

and

wind speed and direction. The airplane does care one bit what your  ground

speed is.

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

That's 'cuz you're my FRIEND, Leggs! 

 

--

serv(at)arbuckle.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Hi everyone. Since I believe there are no stupid questions, I'm going to 

ask.

I've got my RV8 preview plans an have been reading over them but I'm 

having a hard time wrapping my brain around how some of the tools are 

used etc.  I was wondering if any of you current builders might mind 

show me around your shop and explain the tools I'm going to need just so 

I can get the big picture.  I'm in Winston-Salem NC so if there's anyone 

  in my neck of the woods, please let me know..



Lance Arbuckle

Winston-Salem, NC

Lenleg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Lance:

 

I keep my plane .. RV-8A ... at INT in Winston and all my tools at the  

hanger ... would love to have you over anytime ... there is a -7 being built in  

the hanger behind me.

 

 

Len Leggette,  RV-8A

Greensboro, NC N910LL

429 hrs



 

 

In a message dated 1/16/2006 2:43:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,  

serv(at)arbuckle.org writes:



Hi  everyone. Since I believe there are no stupid questions, I'm going to  

ask.

I've got my RV8 preview plans an have been reading over them but  I'm 

having a hard time wrapping my brain around how some of the tools are  

used etc.  I was wondering if any of you current builders might mind  

show me around your shop and explain the tools I'm going to need just so  

I can get the big picture.  I'm in Winston-Salem NC so if there's  anyone 

in my neck of the woods, please let me know..



Lance  Arbuckle

Winston-Salem, NC

djdist(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

That is a great thing to ask about.  Bill Repucci donated a couple of hours 

to show me the basics on the tools and riveting and it was a real confidence 

builder when you actually get started.

Good luck!



Randy Utsey

RV-7 fuselage work ongoing



djdist(at)bellsouth.net

www.djdist.com

---

gmvouga(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Lance,



Your welcome to swing by my shop in Raleigh.  I'm working on the finishing 

kit for my RV-7A.  It's kind of drive from Winston-Salem, but I thought I 

would offer anyhow.



Greg

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Lance C. Arbuckle" <serv(at)arbuckle.org>

Reply-To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Flying Sunday & Airspeed Question

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:41:36 -0500




<serv(at)arbuckle.org>

Hi everyone. Since I believe there are no stupid questions, I'm going to

ask.

I've got my RV8 preview plans an have been reading over them but I'm

having a hard time wrapping my brain around how some of the tools are

used etc.  I was wondering if any of you current builders might mind

show me around your shop and explain the tools I'm going to need just so

I can get the big picture.  I'm in Winston-Salem NC so if there's anyone

   in my neck of the woods, please let me know..



Lance Arbuckle

Winston-Salem, NC

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