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patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
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 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:57 am Post subject: Wankel |
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I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still
Hi, Mazda used to market a sporty car called the Spyder. No idea if they still do so. My days for sports cars are well over although I did drive/fly (whatever) a hovercraft during the summer. Great fun.
No flying I am afraid. My back finally dictated that I can no longer do the pulley hauley involved in ground handling, carrying fuel, crawling around doing DI`s, dragging the plane out of the hangar etc.so the old girl finally had to go. Have a `flight` in a 737 Simulator booked. That promises to be fun.Also trying to justify the cost of a ride in a Spitfire, but it is very steep. The rules have changed here in the last few months.The only way a Spit flight could be arranged was if you were a full PPL holder and engaged in conversion or `further training. Now the authorities have ruled that if you can put the money down you can fly. I flew a P 51d |Mustang for an hour at Kissimmee many years ago also T6, and a Jet Provost trainer and various amphibians including one right down to the water in the Bay of Islands in North Island New Zealand.. A jet fighter at Marathon down in the Keys and a seaplane along the Australian coast and touch down in Sydney harbour Not done too badly , all on a ultralight license but I really would like to get in a Spit. Heigh Ho .Pat
From: undoctor (undoctor(at)ptd.net)
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:04 PM
To: Herb (Herbgh(at)nctc.com) ; kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Good to hear from you, Pat. How are things across the pond? Still grounded? I am and I don't like it. Hope to change that early flying season.
Sorry I misspelled Wankel. Memory gets fuzzy from years ago.
Herb, I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still?
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Herb
Date:01/27/2015 8:29 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... >From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
|
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:31 am Post subject: Wankel |
|
|
May have said good bye to the Old Girl, but you still have an aviation attitude, Pat.
All the best.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Patrick Ladd
Date:01/27/2015 11:57 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Kolb-List: Wankel
I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still
Hi, Mazda used to market a sporty car called the Spyder. No idea if they still do so. My days for sports cars are well over although I did drive/fly (whatever) a hovercraft during the summer. Great fun.
No flying I am afraid. My back finally dictated that I can no longer do the pulley hauley involved in ground handling, carrying fuel, crawling around doing DI`s, dragging the plane out of the hangar etc.so the old girl finally had to go. Have a `flight` in a 737 Simulator booked. That promises to be fun.Also trying to justify the cost of a ride in a Spitfire, but it is very steep. The rules have changed here in the last few months.The only way a Spit flight could be arranged was if you were a full PPL holder and engaged in conversion or `further training. Now the authorities have ruled that if you can put the money down you can fly. I flew a P 51d |Mustang for an hour at Kissimmee many years ago also T6, and a Jet Provost trainer and various amphibians including one right down to the water in the Bay of Islands in North Island New Zealand.. A jet fighter at Marathon down in the Keys and a seaplane along the Australian coast and touch down in Sydney harbour Not done too badly , all on a ultralight license but I really would like to get in a Spit. Heigh Ho .Pat
From: undoctor (undoctor(at)ptd.net)
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:04 PM
To: Herb (Herbgh(at)nctc.com) ; kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Good to hear from you, Pat. How are things across the pond? Still grounded? I am and I don't like it. Hope to change that early flying season.
Sorry I misspelled Wankel. Memory gets fuzzy from years ago.
Herb, I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still?
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Herb
Date:01/27/2015 8:29 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... >From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
|
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
|
�~�
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:41 am Post subject: Wankel |
|
|
Think Mazda used the rotary in the RX models
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:31 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
[quote]May have said good bye to the Old Girl, but you still have an aviation attitude, Pat.
All the best.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Patrick Ladd
Date:01/27/2015 11:57 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Wankel
I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still
Hi, Mazda used to market a sporty car called the Spyder. No idea if they still do so. My days for sports cars are well over although I did drive/fly (whatever) a hovercraft during the summer. Great fun.
No flying I am afraid. My back finally dictated that I can no longer do the pulley hauley involved in ground handling, carrying fuel, crawling around doing DI`s, dragging the plane out of the hangar etc.so the old girl finally had to go. Have a `flight` in a 737 Simulator booked. That promises to be fun.Also trying to justify the cost of a ride in a Spitfire, but it is very steep. The rules have changed here in the last few months.The only way a Spit flight could be arranged was if you were a full PPL holder and engaged in conversion or `further training. Now the authorities have ruled that if you can put the money down you can fly. I flew a P 51d |Mustang for an hour at Kissimmee many years ago also T6, and a Jet Provost trainer and various amphibians including one right down to the water in the Bay of Islands in North Island New Zealand.. A jet fighter at Marathon down in the Keys and a seaplane along the Australian coast and touch down in Sydney harbour Not done too badly , all on a ultralight license but I really would like to get in a Spit. Heigh Ho .Pat
From: undoctor (undoctor(at)ptd.net)
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:04 PM
To: Herb (Herbgh(at)nctc.com) ; kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Good to hear from you, Pat. How are things across the pond? Still grounded? I am and I don't like it. Hope to change that early flying season.
Sorry I misspelled Wankel. Memory gets fuzzy from years ago.
Herb, I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still?
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Herb
Date:01/27/2015 8:29 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... >From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
|
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
|
�~�
| Quote: |
===================================
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===================================
cs.com
===================================
matronics.com/contribution
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woody
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 22
Location: Gulf Coast
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Wankel |
|
|
I believe that Mazda still puts a Wankel rotary engine in their RX-8.
A car that will outrun anything in it's class including the Porches.
I've watched this firsthand at Barbers road course in Leeds, AL.
The engine, with two turbochargers, puts out tremendous HP & torque.
Nobody can stay with them, coming out of the tight turns or on the long straights.
I imagine these engines to be expensive to buy & feed as 2 stroke engines
are notorious gas guzzlers.
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:15 am Post subject: Wankel |
|
|
On 1/29/2015 9:30 AM, woody wrote:
| Quote: |
I believe that Mazda still puts a Wankel rotary engine in their RX-8.
A car that will outrun anything in it's class including the Porches.
I've watched this firsthand at Barbers road course in Leeds, AL.
The engine, with two turbochargers, puts out tremendous HP & torque.
Nobody can stay with them, coming out of the tight turns or on the long straights.
I imagine these engines to be expensive to buy & feed as 2 stroke engines
are notorious gas guzzlers.
Yes, very light and quick, and not, not, and not.
|
The twin turbo was the last generation RX7; the RX8 (Renesis powered)
was normally aspirated (no turbo option). Unfortunately, the RX8 is no
longer produced, and Mazda is not currently selling rotary powered cars,
to my knowledge (definitely not in the USA). I previously sent links to
two potential new rotary products from Mazda, a small (~300cc)
'sustainer' engine for a hybrid car (should be just about perfect for a
Kolb), and the 16B, a larger displacement (1600cc), all aluminum rotary
intended for a new sports car. The latter has us aviating rotor heads
salivating. It will likely be around 250-275 HP normally aspirated, and
the core engine will weigh around 120-130 lbs (the Renesis core weighs
around 190 lbs & produces around 200 HP). Remember, those weights are
for bare engines; what a V-8 builder would call a 'long block'. All up
for flight, with radiator, oil cooler, etc, a Renesis weighs around
330-340 lbs. The weight & HP numbers for the Renesis are 'real world',
proven-in-a/c numbers, not marketing hype from someone trying to sell
you worthless stock options.
The engines are relatively inexpensive from salvage yards; typically a
few hundred dollars for the old 13B engines and from a few hundred to
under a couple thousand for Renesis engines in near new condition. Fuel
economy is slightly worse (~10%) than piston engines, but the normally
aspirated engines prefer the lowest octane fuel you can find. And they
are --not-repeat-not-- 2 stroke engines. They go through a normal 4
stroke power cycle just like a piston engine; but do all 4 strokes in
one rev of the rotor. Engineers often call them 'rotary combustion'
engines, since the combustion process travels around the engine as it
occurs.
I wouldn't claim to be an authority, but I am familiar with them; I've
owned two RX-7's, I'm installing a Renesis in an RV-7 & I have a lot of
friends already flying rotaries. If anyone wants more info, just let me
know.
Thanks,
Charlie
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