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ron.dace(at)yahoo.com
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 8
Location: Illinois
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 Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:18 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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I would be interested to know the distribution of engines installed on MK III classic and xtra airplanes and the pros and cons of each. Would there be a common source for such information?
100 hp 912:
80 hp 912:
582:
Jab 2200:
Jab 3300:
VW:
Suzuki:
Others?
Reason for asking, I have a MK III Xtra airframe and am trying to decide what to do about an engine. I have a Suzuki 1.3 with a Raven on the shelf but am loosing confidence in it as an option (lack of support, complexity of the install, etc).
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:46 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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Out of all those engines, to me, the best all around engine for the MKIII
would be the 912UL, based on reliability and economy.
Second best engine would be the 912ULS based on reliability and performance.
Reliability is the number one factor for me in choosing power for an
airplane, based on the environment we fly. We are not immune to gravity and
there are many times I don't have a safe forced landing area. The past 21
years and 3,300.0+ hours flying my MKIII with a 912 (didn't have a 912UL in
1994), a 912S (that was the designation when I bought that engine) and a
912ULS, I have had two engine failures and both were fuel contamination and
my fault, not the engines.
The first two engines were sold at approximately 1,200.0 and 1,300.0 hours,
both in excellent condition. The 912ULS has about 800.0 hours.
I have no knowledge of the distribution of engines installed on the MKIII.
The first engine I had on my MKIII was a 582. It seized at just over 200.0
hours.
I have no personal experience flying the Jabs or VW.
I'm guessing most folks don't power with the 912 series engines, going with
alternatives, is price.
There are not many VW, Suzuki, and BMW engines powering MKIII's.
The above info is off the top of my head, and my experience and opinion
only. If you don't fly a 912, please don't shoot me for my comments.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--> <ron.dace(at)yahoo.com>
I would be interested to know the distribution of engines installed on MK
III classic and xtra airplanes and the pros and cons of each. Would there
be a common source for such information?
100 hp 912:
80 hp 912:
582:
Jab 2200:
Jab 3300:
VW:
Suzuki:
Others?
Reason for asking, I have a MK III Xtra airframe and am trying to decide
what to do about an engine. I have a Suzuki 1.3 with a Raven on the shelf
but am loosing confidence in it as an option (lack of support, complexity of
the install, etc).
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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ron.dace(at)yahoo.com
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 8
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:57 am Post subject: Re: MK III Engine Options |
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> I'm guessing most folks don't power with the 912 series engines, going with
alternatives, is price.
Exactly, which is why I am looking. I will probably fly it in the 50 to 80 hour a year range (based on my current habits with a 172). An under 10K option would be optimal. If it cost more then a 912 would be worth considering. Buying new is expensive, buying used is fraught with risk.
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_________________
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:08 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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I have known of many Kolbers buying used 912 engines. As far as I know, no
has gotten bit.
A good source for 912's is Ronnie Smith, South Mississippi Light Aircraft.
Google to get his number is interested.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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colin.scott.hudson(at)gma
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:29 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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I've got a Mark 3 X-tra. Although I think the 912 is a fantastic engine I prefer my Jab 2200. It's very compatible to the 912 in price, performance and reliability. The thing I prefer over the 912 is like a Continental, the Jabiru runs directly off the crankshaft. Lower RPM and no gear reduction. I normally cruise around 2700 RPM. They rate the engine at 80 HP but the book says it's closer to 90. At max gross wt it will jump off the ground in 300' and climb at 1500' per min. There's been some talk about Jabs having cooling problems if they're not cowled right. In the open air pusher configuration of the Mark 3 I've had no problem with cooling.
Scott Hudson
N424AL
M3X-tra
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Feb 21, 2015, at 8:45 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Out of all those engines, to me, the best all around engine for the MKIII
would be the 912UL, based on reliability and economy.
Second best engine would be the 912ULS based on reliability and performance.
Reliability is the number one factor for me in choosing power for an
airplane, based on the environment we fly. We are not immune to gravity and
there are many times I don't have a safe forced landing area. The past 21
years and 3,300.0+ hours flying my MKIII with a 912 (didn't have a 912UL in
1994), a 912S (that was the designation when I bought that engine) and a
912ULS, I have had two engine failures and both were fuel contamination and
my fault, not the engines.
The first two engines were sold at approximately 1,200.0 and 1,300.0 hours,
both in excellent condition. The 912ULS has about 800.0 hours.
I have no knowledge of the distribution of engines installed on the MKIII.
The first engine I had on my MKIII was a 582. It seized at just over 200.0
hours.
I have no personal experience flying the Jabs or VW.
I'm guessing most folks don't power with the 912 series engines, going with
alternatives, is price.
There are not many VW, Suzuki, and BMW engines powering MKIII's.
The above info is off the top of my head, and my experience and opinion
only. If you don't fly a 912, please don't shoot me for my comments.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--> <ron.dace(at)yahoo.com>
I would be interested to know the distribution of engines installed on MK
III classic and xtra airplanes and the pros and cons of each. Would there
be a common source for such information?
100 hp 912:
80 hp 912:
582:
Jab 2200:
Jab 3300:
VW:
Suzuki:
Others?
Reason for asking, I have a MK III Xtra airframe and am trying to decide
what to do about an engine. I have a Suzuki 1.3 with a Raven on the shelf
but am loosing confidence in it as an option (lack of support, complexity of
the install, etc).
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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ron.dace(at)yahoo.com
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 8
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:17 am Post subject: Re: MK III Engine Options |
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> Jab 2200
Did you have to modify the mount? Do you have pics of your installation?
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_________________
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:30 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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If your pockets are deep enough the Rotax 912 is your best choice. Pick the power and pay the price. I flew a bit with a guy that had a Jabiru on a Kolbra and it was a bit under powered. Later I flew in a MKIIIC with a Jabiru and it did quite well even over gross weight. I think prop selection is critical to get good performance.
My first VW was a direct drive on my Kolb MKIIIC. The engine turned more HP into noise than thrust. Cruise RPM was 3200 and takeoff 3600. Later switched to a redrive VW and the performance difference was startling. For the fist time I had to feed in power slowly to keep from nosing over. I ended up cruising 10 MPH faster burning 1 GPH less fuel. The VW is a good choice as a inexpensive option. The install is not for the faint of hart. The accessories are the weak part on the engine so pick them carefully. I seem to have the most problems with fuel pumps. I'm currently flying with electric dual pumps in parallel. I have had my back up Facet pump fail and a rotary primary pump warning me with electrical surges before I replaced it.
Cooling can be a problem if you ask the engine to run too hard, but under 80HP it is fine. Ground handling is also a problem. Get in a long line for take off and you will overheat the engine. I had one guy complaining that he couldn't run full throttle for more than 5 minutes on the ground before it over heated. You just can't do that.
Seems like I read that someone was concerned about the complexity of installing a Raven engine. If that is a concern buy nothing but a Rotax engine package.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Colin Hudson <colin.scott.hudson(at)gmail.com (colin.scott.hudson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Colin Hudson <colin.scott.hudson(at)gmail.com (colin.scott.hudson(at)gmail.com)>
I've got a Mark 3 X-tra. Although I think the 912 is a fantastic engine I prefer my Jab 2200. It's very compatible to the 912 in price, performance and reliability. The thing I prefer over the 912 is like a Continental, the Jabiru runs directly off the crankshaft. Lower RPM and no gear reduction. I normally cruise around 2700 RPM. They rate the engine at 80 HP but the book says it's closer to 90. At max gross wt it will jump off the ground in 300' and climb at 1500' per min. There's been some talk about Jabs having cooling problems if they're not cowled right. In the open air pusher configuration of the Mark 3 I've had no problem with cooling.
Scott Hudson
N424AL
M3X-tra
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 21, 2015, at 8:45 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
>
> Out of all those engines, to me, the best all around engine for the MKIII
> would be the 912UL, based on reliability and economy.
>
> Second best engine would be the 912ULS based on reliability and performance.
>
> Reliability is the number one factor for me in choosing power for an
> airplane, based on the environment we fly. We are not immune to gravity and
> there are many times I don't have a safe forced landing area. The past 21
> years and 3,300.0+ hours flying my MKIII with a 912 (didn't have a 912UL in
> 1994), a 912S (that was the designation when I bought that engine) and a
> 912ULS, I have had two engine failures and both were fuel contamination and
> my fault, not the engines.
>
> The first two engines were sold at approximately 1,200.0 and 1,300.0 hours,
> both in excellent condition. The 912ULS has about 800.0 hours.
>
> I have no knowledge of the distribution of engines installed on the MKIII.
>
> The first engine I had on my MKIII was a 582. It seized at just over 200.0
> hours.
>
> I have no personal experience flying the Jabs or VW.
>
> I'm guessing most folks don't power with the 912 series engines, going with
> alternatives, is price.
>
> There are not many VW, Suzuki, and BMW engines powering MKIII's.
>
> The above info is off the top of my head, and my experience and opinion
> only. If you don't fly a 912, please don't shoot me for my comments.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "ron.dace(at)yahoo.com"
> --> <ron.dace(at)yahoo.com (ron.dace(at)yahoo.com)>
>
> I would be interested to know the distribution of engines installed on MK
> III classic and xtra airplanes and the pros and cons of each. Would there
> be a common source for such information?
>
> 100 hp 912:
> 80 hp 912:
> 582:
> Jab 2200:
> Jab 3300:
> VW:
> Suzuki:
> Others?
>
> Reason for asking, I have a MK III Xtra airframe and am trying to decide
> what to do about an engine. I have a Suzuki 1.3 with a Raven on the shelf
> but am loosing confidence in it as an option (lack of support, complexity of
> the install, etc).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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sfrIII
Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: MK III Engine Options |
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Hi all! Sam here in Idaho. I am currently building a MKIII Extra.
My engine of choice is a converted Corvair Engine that I built for a
different project. There are several pros and cons but the main reason
for using a Corvair is price.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:20 pm Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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First and foremost, the 912 series is reliable first, has consistent power second, is not plagued with cooling problems, and is a super simple engine with extremely low maintenance.
The down side is the price of the engine and the parts, but there is used stuff out there if one is willing to look for it.
4 gph at 80 mph in a MKIII ain't bad with the 912UL and 5 gph at 80 with a 912ULS. Also the 80 runs on 87 and the 100 runs on no less than 91 octane.
I have had 5 engine outs and forced landings in my mkIII:
-Ran out of gas in the mountains north of North Wilkesboro, NC, 10 minutes or less from the airport. 582 would not run on air alone.
-Air filter, a double K&N on the 582, went AWOL and through a GSC 3 blade wooden prop. All 3 blades impacted the tail boom in the same place, bending it a few degrees out of column. Slung the carbs out of the "Rotax" sockets  and the starter out of the aluminum bell housing. mkIII won't fly without prop blades, not for very long, and the 582 won't run unless carbs are installed in the sockets.
-582 seized transitioning from takeoff and climb to cruise power. Solution: Get a 912 (they didn't have but one version of the engine in 1993).
-Water and contamination in fuel. 912UL runs better on straight 87 octane.
-Clogged fuel filter on same 912UL. Fuel will not pass through a completely blocked fuel filter. Do not be the first to get fuel from a new 1,000 gal fuel tank with new hose and nozzle that has not been flushed first. Flushing a new system into a tiny fuel filter will clog it completely.
The above indicates one out of four engine outs were not pilot's fault. Pilot need to get his head out of his ___. Well, maybe I have. The last engine out was June 1994, just prior to my first flight to Alaska.
Again of primary importance to me in engine selection is reliability. If my hobby was two dimensional and not three dimensional, I'd have a Kubota diesel pushing it.
You get what you pay for, and you didn't pay for my opinion. So you're even.
john h
mkIII - 3,350.7 hours
912ULS - 782.2 hours
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 10:28 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: MK III Engine Options
If your pockets are deep enough the Rotax 912 is your best choice. Pick the power and pay the price. I flew a bit with a guy that had a Jabiru on a Kolbra and it was a bit under powered. Later I flew in a MKIIIC with a Jabiru and it did quite well even over gross weight. I think prop selection is critical to get good performance.
My first VW was a direct drive on my Kolb MKIIIC. The engine turned more HP into noise than thrust. Cruise RPM was 3200 and takeoff 3600. Later switched to a redrive VW and the performance difference was startling. For the fist time I had to feed in power slowly to keep from nosing over. I ended up cruising 10 MPH faster burning 1 GPH less fuel. The VW is a good choice as a inexpensive option. The install is not for the faint of hart. The accessories are the weak part on the engine so pick them carefully. I seem to have the most problems with fuel pumps. I'm currently flying with electric dual pumps in parallel. I have had my back up Facet pump fail and a rotary primary pump warning me with electrical surges before I replaced it.
Cooling can be a problem if you ask the engine to run too hard, but under 80HP it is fine. Ground handling is also a problem. Get in a long line for take off and you will overheat the engine. I had one guy complaining that he couldn't run full throttle for more than 5 minutes on the ground before it over heated. You just can't do that.
Seems like I read that someone was concerned about the complexity of installing a Raven engine. If that is a concern buy nothing but a Rotax engine package.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Colin Hudson <colin.scott.hudson(at)gmail.com (colin.scott.hudson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Colin Hudson <colin.scott.hudson(at)gmail.com (colin.scott.hudson(at)gmail.com)>
I've got a Mark 3 X-tra. Although I think the 912 is a fantastic engine I prefer my Jab 2200. It's very compatible to the 912 in price, performance and reliability. The thing I prefer over the 912 is like a Continental, the Jabiru runs directly off the crankshaft. Lower RPM and no gear reduction. I normally cruise around 2700 RPM. They rate the engine at 80 HP but the book says it's closer to 90. At max gross wt it will jump off the ground in 300' and climb at 1500' per min. There's been some talk about Jabs having cooling problems if they're not cowled right. In the open air pusher configuration of the Mark 3 I've had no problem with cooling.
Scott Hudson
N424AL
M3X-tra
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Feb 21, 2015, at 8:45 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
Out of all those engines, to me, the best all around engine for the MKIII
would be the 912UL, based on reliability and economy.
Second best engine would be the 912ULS based on reliability and performance.
Reliability is the number one factor for me in choosing power for an
airplane, based on the environment we fly. We are not immune to gravity and
there are many times I don't have a safe forced landing area. The past 21
years and 3,300.0+ hours flying my MKIII with a 912 (didn't have a 912UL in
1994), a 912S (that was the designation when I bought that engine) and a
912ULS, I have had two engine failures and both were fuel contamination and
my fault, not the engines.
The first two engines were sold at approximately 1,200.0 and 1,300.0 hours,
both in excellent condition. The 912ULS has about 800.0 hours.
I have no knowledge of the distribution of engines installed on the MKIII.
The first engine I had on my MKIII was a 582. It seized at just over 200.0
hours.
I have no personal experience flying the Jabs or VW.
I'm guessing most folks don't power with the 912 series engines, going with
alternatives, is price.
There are not many VW, Suzuki, and BMW engines powering MKIII's.
The above info is off the top of my head, and my experience and opinion
only. If you don't fly a 912, please don't shoot me for my comments.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "ron.dace(at)yahoo.com"
--> <ron.dace(at)yahoo.com (ron.dace(at)yahoo.com)>
I would be interested to know the distribution of engines installed on MK
III classic and xtra airplanes and the pros and cons of each. Would there
be a common source for such information?
100 hp 912:
80 hp 912:
582:
Jab 2200:
Jab 3300:
VW:
Suzuki:
Others?
Reason for asking, I have a MK III Xtra airframe and am trying to decide
what to do about an engine. I have a Suzuki 1.3 with a Raven on the shelf
but am loosing confidence in it as an option (lack of support, complexity of
the install, etc).
|
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-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
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_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
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01234567890123
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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ron.dace(at)yahoo.com
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 8
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: MK III Engine Options |
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(at)sfrIII - Corvair is a lot of engine. Do you know if there are other MK III's flying with one?
(at)John Hauck - I would love to have a 912 and will keep that option open as my research continues. That was the engine that was originally on the my Mk III airframe. The owner/builder couldn't sell the plane intact so he parted it out and sold the engine first.
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:35 pm Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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Engine seekers,
Have any of you considered the engine from a Honda ST1100 motorcycle? It's a V4 and runs sweeter than any BMW I've owned. I put 129,000 miles on my 2000 ST, and I've got about 180,000 miles on Beemers, both R model airheads an K model bricks. The R is better than the K but the ST. is sweeter than either of them.
And you can buy one used for five hundred bucks!! Great engine, ask Don Gheradini, the Honda Motors engineer who built the FlagFly I flew.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: "ron.dace(at)yahoo.com" <ron.dace(at)yahoo.com> </div><div>Date:02/21/2015 9:37 PM (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com </div><div>Subject: Kolb-List: Re: MK III Engine Options </div><div>
</div>
(at)sfrIII - Corvair is a lot of engine. Do you know if there are other MK III's flying with one?
(at)John Hauck - I would love to have a 912 and will keep that option open as my research continues. That was the engine that was originally on the my Mk III airframe. The owner/builder couldn't sell the plane intact so he parted it out and sold the engine first.
--------
"But all the knowledge in the world is of no use to fools. And it's a long road out of Eden." - Eagles
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438565#438565
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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:57 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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you tube pics of Mike Richardson in his MkIII with BMW engine.... Last I knew he would sell it with or without the engine...
I think that is the most telling thing..."with or without"....most people shy away from non standard engine installations on Kolbs.. and for that matter most other planes... no matter how well they are engineered...and Mike did a super job...excellent build and very good adaptation on the engine...Herb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KGLy1FCWVU
[quote] Engine seekers,
Have any of you considered the engine from a Honda ST1100 motorcycle? It's a V4 and runs sweeter than any BMW I've owned. I put 129,000 miles on my 2000 ST, and I've got about 180,000 miles on Beemers, both R model airheads an K model bricks. The R is better than the K but the ST. is sweeter than either of them.
And you can buy one used for five hundred bucks!! Great engine, ask Don Gheradini, the Honda Motors engineer who built the FlagFly I flew.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: "ron.dace(at)yahoo.com"
Date:02/21/2015 9:37 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: MK III Engine Options
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "ron.dace(at)yahoo.com" <ron.dace(at)yahoo.com> (ron.dace(at)yahoo.com)
(at)sfrIII - Corvair is a lot of engine. Do you know if there are other MK III's flying with one?
(at)John Hauck - I would love to have a 912 and will keep that option open as my research continues. That was the engine that was originally on the my Mk III airframe. The owner/builder couldn't sell the plane intact so he parted it out and sold the engine first.
--------
"But all the knowledge in the world is of no use to fools. And it's a long road out of Eden." - Eagles
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438565#438565
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henry.voris
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 116
Location: Pueo Field, Kula, Maui
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:32 am Post subject: Re: MK III Engine Options |
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If considering a Jabiru mill, you might want to know of the Australian FAA (CASA) concerns about them...
http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_102353
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Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:03 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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Sfrill, Great looking engine, but you need to consider its weight. Putting a 200 lb.+ engine in a MkIIIX reduces it to a single passenger airplane. I've flown the IIIX at 1280 lb. Very poor performance. My peronal recommendation is to not fly it at greater than 1100 lb. You also need to consider the strength of the rear portion of the fuselage truss. The MkIII was designed as a +4g airframe. Doubling the design engine weight seriously compromises the aircraft's designed strength margin.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 5:06 PM, sfrIII <sfr3(at)speedyquick.net (sfr3(at)speedyquick.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "sfrIII" <sfr3(at)speedyquick.net (sfr3(at)speedyquick.net)>
Hi all! Sam here in Idaho. I am currently building a MKIII Extra.
My engine of choice is a converted Corvair Engine that I built for a
different project. There are several pros and cons but the main reason
for using a Corvair is price.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438562#438562
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/corvair_engine1_171.jpg
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:39 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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Rick:
What engine were you flying on the 1280 lb MKIIIX?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 9:03 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: MK III Engine Options
Sfrill, Great looking engine, but you need to consider its weight. Putting a 200 lb.+ engine in a MkIIIX reduces it to a single passenger airplane. I've flown the IIIX at 1280 lb. Very poor performance. My peronal recommendation is to not fly it at greater than 1100 lb. You also need to consider the strength of the rear portion of the fuselage truss. The MkIII was designed as a +4g airframe. Doubling the design engine weight seriously compromises the aircraft's designed strength margin.
Rick Girard
[quote] [b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:04 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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John, The engine on the "Plane from Hell" was a 582-99.
Rick
do not archive
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 9:37 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Rick:
What engine were you flying on the 1280 lb MKIIIX?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 9:03 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: MK III Engine Options
Sfrill, Great looking engine, but you need to consider its weight. Putting a 200 lb.+ engine in a MkIIIX reduces it to a single passenger airplane. I've flown the IIIX at 1280 lb. Very poor performance. My peronal recommendation is to not fly it at greater than 1100 lb. You also need to consider the strength of the rear portion of the fuselage truss. The MkIII was designed as a +4g airframe. Doubling the design engine weight seriously compromises the aircraft's designed strength margin.
Rick Girard
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:55 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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That's what I thought.
Also an early model MKIIIx.
I have experienced good performance with my MKIII loaded to 1200+ lbs. This is normal takeoff weight when I am flying long cross country flights and sleeping under the wing.
I climbed out of Dixon, WY, last September, elevation 6549 ASL, to 15,000+, straight across the Rockies to Fort Collins/Loveland, Colorado. MKIII performed well as usual. No handling problems. It has performed that way since the early days powered with the 582.
The "Plane from Hell" was one of a kind.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 10:01 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: MK III Engine Options
John, The engine on the "Plane from Hell" was a 582-99.
Rick
do not archive
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 9:37 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
Rick:
What engine were you flying on the 1280 lb MKIIIX?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 9:03 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: MK III Engine Options
Sfrill, Great looking engine, but you need to consider its weight. Putting a 200 lb.+ engine in a MkIIIX reduces it to a single passenger airplane. I've flown the IIIX at 1280 lb. Very poor performance. My peronal recommendation is to not fly it at greater than 1100 lb. You also need to consider the strength of the rear portion of the fuselage truss. The MkIII was designed as a +4g airframe. Doubling the design engine weight seriously compromises the aircraft's designed strength margin.
Rick Girard
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
0123456789012345678901
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:21 am Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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Ron/all
There are a lot of good engines out there but are they suitable for a Kolb. The Rotax 912 series is the benchmark. It is really tough to find one that weighs as light as a 912. The VW at the time I chose my engine was the only engine close to power and weight. Even with the VW it is 10 + lbs heaver. Advertised weights and HP are frequently misrepresented.
There are a bunch of issues that need to be considered before tackling a new engine on any airplane and even more on a light plane like a Kolb. Just a few are : Direct drive vs reduction drive, what RPM is best for the engine, does anyone make a working redrive for the engine (ask Larry Borne) , weight, how well will the engine hold up at 60-80% power, do you need to design and fabricate a engine mount, do you need to design and fabricate a exhaust system, what prop brand type diameter number of blades pitch (this is almost impossible to do right the first or more times), are the engine harmonics suitable for driving a prop, are you going to put a used engine on a airplane, what are parts availability like (motor cycle manufactures quit supplying parts fairly quick), will you ever be able to sell the plane with that engine on it (did you modify the air frame to mount the engine).
Do you think Kolb is going to help you with a questionable one off engine? Send them big bucks or spend less and buy a 912.
The VW engine is out of production for a bunch of years but you can still buy (with no end in sight) any part you want and there are inexpensive racing parts readily available. You can rebuild a VW for the cost of a 912 gasket set.
Just food for thought
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:35 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
[quote]Engine seekers,
Have any of you considered the engine from a Honda ST1100 motorcycle? It's a V4 and runs sweeter than any BMW I've owned. I put 129,000 miles on my 2000 ST, and I've got about 180,000 miles on Beemers, both R model airheads an K model bricks. The R is better than the K but the ST. is sweeter than either of them.
And you can buy one used for five hundred bucks!! Great engine, ask Don Gheradini, the Honda Motors engineer who built the FlagFly I flew.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: "ron.dace(at)yahoo.com"
Date:02/21/2015 9:37 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: MK III Engine Options
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "ron.dace(at)ron.dace(at)yahoo.com (ron.dace(at)yahoo.com)>
(at)sfrIII - Corvair is a lot of engine. Do you know if there are other MK III's flying with one?
(at)John Hauck - I would love to have a 912 and will keep that option open as my research continues. That was the engine that was originally on the my Mk III airframe. The owner/builder couldn't sell the plane intact so he parted it out and sold the engine first.
--------
"But all the knowledge in the world is of no use to fools. And it's a long road out of Eden." - Eagles
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438565#438565
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com/co=================
[b]
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Frankd
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:38 am Post subject: Re: MK III Engine Options |
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Hi Ron/Kolbers,
I have a MkIII Xtra with a Jab 2200.
I got a deal on the engine at $8000 with a prince prop and grand rapids EIS.
The things that mattered to me were:-
a/ Reliability. I liked the fact that the jab is direct drive , 4 stroke, simple aircooled.
b/ Weight. I was looking for best power to weight and did not want to go lower than 80HP.
c/ Price. I was on a budget and could not pass up on this deal.
I had to get a engine mount from Titan aircraft to mount the Jab for about $800.
After flying my plane for about 3 years now, here are my observations. (Mine alone and different for every plane, I'm sure)
1/ This is a wonderful "single person" aircraft. Add another 200Lb person and I think it flys marginally and landing is best with some power but I need to use full back stick to achieve flare. A slightly rear Cg works well in my Kolb. I would now LOVE to have 100Hp and have a margin of performance for a 2 person situation. I generally fly alone so I'm happy with what I have.
2/ The engine needed work to get to run reliably , changing the needle and carb settings and I did have overheating issues that I solved using a shroud in front of the mags that directed the airflow into the baffles.
3/The jab2200 uses 100LL but sips about 3.5gals/hr. I love this. But I realize that anything up to 5 or 6 gals/hr is no issue for me. My bladder time is shorter than the time aloft with 10gals standard kolb tanks and for me the cost is not an issue. Flying faster would offset the fuel burn. mine flys at 70-75 mph on cruise.
What would I do next time:- I would pay the $$ for a Rotax 912ul, 100HP, 4 stroke, new or from a reputable used source.
a/ There is history of reliability. (I would ONLY fly 4 stroke, never two stroke. My preference)
b/ The Kolb is built for this engine and you know it works and don't have to do "work-Arounds" to get it installed. Its a great combination for DUAL person performance and no heating issues. (If using other engines like BMW or Convair I'd verify the frame can take the weight and torque.)
c/ The fuel burn is decent on lower octane.
My advise is to go try get a ride in either model you like, its worth the effort for a decision that you will live with for awhile.
Building and flying these aircraft is a set of compromises that you can pick to make it what you want... Good luck.
FrankD
N1014S
Do not archive
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sfrIII
Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:36 pm Post subject: MK III Engine Options |
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Hi Ron,
I have looked Hi and Low for an EXTRA
powered with a Corvair.
People assume that this engine is very heavy.
In reality, a running aircraft converted Corvair
is only 30 LBS. heavier than a 912.
Sam
--
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