 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
 Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:35 am Post subject: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
 |
|
Looks like there is a much cheaper option for those that haven't already
invested.
Of course there is much gnashing of teeth for the factory built aircraft.
http://www.flyingmag.com/avionics-gear/instrumentaccessories/ads-b-compliance-699-its-true-sort
<http://www.flyingmag.com/avionics-gear/instrumentaccessories/ads-b-compliance-699-its-true-sort>
Kelly
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
|
|
This just does not smell right. Whether normally certified or E-AB, FAR 91.225 and .227 apply to both equally. 91.227 requires that the position source meet certain standards. So far Navworks has not stated unequivocally that the gps meets those standards. And certainly almost no owner can so state with any authority.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AirMike
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:27 am Post subject: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
|
|
There are GPS performance specs as to accuracy as to location, heading
and ground speed, frequency of update, etc. Your Ipad is very unlikely
to meet those specs. Most decent WAAS GPS modules today receive at least
12 satellites simultaneously, apply WAAS correction, and output updates
5 times per second. No relationship to radar and transponders which
update once per 6 seconds at best.
The guts of a GPS that does the above cost under $50 in quantity. Apple
chose a different route, using cell phone towers and a cheap non-WAAS
GPS to derive position. I don't know if they improved the GPS as newer
models came out. They still use cell phone tower locations to massage
the location, something the FAA would not accept.
On 3/15/2015 8:26 AM, AirMike wrote:
| Quote: |
My intuition tells me that this unit resides in the same squishy area as IFR navigation equipment for EAB aircraft, and my guess is that if you put one of these in your EAB aircraft, that there will be no squealing from the powers that be. After all we are not exactly (for the most part) flying high performance turbine equipment. Modern GPS - even in my I-Pad updates way faster than the FAA's antiquated mode C - transponder system. Kudos to these guys for getting this on the shelf for us to meet the 2020 deadline. 
--------
See you OSH '15
Q/B - flying 5 yrs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439410#439410
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deej(at)deej.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:40 am Post subject: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
|
|
On 3/15/2015 12:24 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: | The guts of a GPS that does the above cost under $50 in quantity.
Apple chose a different route, using cell phone towers and a cheap
non-WAAS GPS to derive position. I don't know if they improved the
GPS as newer models came out.
|
They did. The newer models (I believe iPad 2 was the first) all use
WAAS GPS chipsets and do not require cell towers for assistance.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
|
|
| AirMike wrote: | | My intuition tells me that this unit resides in the same squishy area as IFR navigation equipment for EAB aircraft, and my guess is that if you put one of these in your EAB aircraft, that there will be no squealing from the powers that be. After all we are not exactly (for the most part) flying high performance turbine equipment. Modern GPS - even in my I-Pad updates way faster than the FAA's antiquated mode C - transponder system. Kudos to these guys for getting this on the shelf for us to meet the 2020 deadline. |
You'll get no argument from me that the specs are way too stringent. But remember the FAA doesn't care about us - they do care about an airliner hitting us. So IMHO there will be no relaxation on the specs.(IF they did relax them, now, the companies that already are in the market with TSO'd boxes would cry foul - and they'd have a point). And btw, there's nothing "squishy" about IFR navigation equipment. Your operating limitations require you to follow the same 91.205 rules as the normally certified aircraft. I applaud Navworks for trying to bring the cost down, and in fact this is a very competitive price even without a position source. But I won't believe "ready for 2020" until I see someone say in writing that the built in gps meets 91.227.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:05 am Post subject: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
|
|
If this box is anything like their ADS600B, and I'm told it
is almost identical if not identical, other than it doesn't
have an ARINC module, then I understand why they can say
it's 2020 ready. The ADS600B uses a modular GPS,
and you can either buy it with a non-certified GPS module
(ADS600B) or buy a certified module for it (ADS600BG).
This means that upgrading the GPS itself is just a snap
in change. The certified module isn't even that expensive
for those who want it now. The certified module is a TSO c145
module.
If the module that it comes with is not that certified
module, then I'm sure the reason they call it "ready" is
that it takes just a module change and you can meet
the rule. At the price they're selling it at, it's
still a bargain compared to most any other option for
us EAB's.
Personally, I don't care if the certified world
is gnashing their teeth over it. It's not OUR fault
that they don't have the motivation to build their
own plane. Also, being an electronic device, I'm sure
we'll see all units from most manufacturers get cheaper
and cheaper over time, just as EFIS's have. Those who
want to sell, will have to compete. NavWorX just
pushed out their cheaper option first. At the price
we can get it for now, there's no reason not to.
And I say all this after spending more than DOUBLE
the price of this new 600EXP, when I bought my ADS600B
for the RV-14 project less than a month before they
released this new model. Coulda, shoulda, woulda...
But hey, I'll be equipped.
Tim
On 3/15/2015 2:31 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
| Quote: |
<bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
AirMike wrote:
> My intuition tells me that this unit resides in the same squishy
> area as IFR navigation equipment for EAB aircraft, and my guess is
> that if you put one of these in your EAB aircraft, that there will
> be no squealing from the powers that be. After all we are not
> exactly (for the most part) flying high performance turbine
> equipment. Modern GPS - even in my I-Pad updates way faster than
> the FAA's antiquated mode C - transponder system. Kudos to these
> guys for getting this on the shelf for us to meet the 2020
> deadline.
You'll get no argument from me that the specs are way too stringent.
But remember the FAA doesn't care about us - they do care about an
airliner hitting us. So IMHO there will be no relaxation on the
specs.(IF they did relax them, now, the companies that already are in
the market with TSO'd boxes would cry foul - and they'd have a
point). And btw, there's nothing "squishy" about IFR navigation
equipment. Your operating limitations require you to follow the same
91.205 rules as the normally certified aircraft. I applaud Navworks
for trying to bring the cost down, and in fact this is a very
competitive price even without a position source. But I won't believe
"ready for 2020" until I see someone say in writing that the built in
gps meets 91.227.
-------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:44 am Post subject: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
|
|
Yeah, after I spent more than that for my Dynon ADS-B In unit on top of
3 times that for Dynon/Trig 1090ES ADS-B out, but I am all set to take
the RV up into the flight levels or out of the country, yada yada yada.
I'm just happy for the guys that can barely manage a used RV-4 or other
low cost plane, that they won't have to have 25% of the value of the
plane in a transponder/GPS combo.
On 3/16/2015 7:02 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
And I say all this after spending more than DOUBLE
the price of this new 600EXP, when I bought my ADS600B
for the RV-14 project less than a month before they
released this new model. Coulda, shoulda, woulda...
But hey, I'll be equipped.
Tim
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:54 am Post subject: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
|
|
I'm with Tim on this. The guts of the EXP is the same as their certified box, but the antenna connectors are different and it's a DB9 instead of a DB37, and you no longer have to hook up to a serial port to program it.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Mar 16, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:
If this box is anything like their ADS600B, and I'm told it
is almost identical if not identical, other than it doesn't
have an ARINC module, then I understand why they can say
it's 2020 ready. The ADS600B uses a modular GPS,
and you can either buy it with a non-certified GPS module
(ADS600B) or buy a certified module for it (ADS600BG).
This means that upgrading the GPS itself is just a snap
in change. The certified module isn't even that expensive
for those who want it now. The certified module is a TSO c145
module.
If the module that it comes with is not that certified
module, then I'm sure the reason they call it "ready" is
that it takes just a module change and you can meet
the rule. At the price they're selling it at, it's
still a bargain compared to most any other option for
us EAB's.
Personally, I don't care if the certified world
is gnashing their teeth over it. It's not OUR fault
that they don't have the motivation to build their
own plane. Also, being an electronic device, I'm sure
we'll see all units from most manufacturers get cheaper
and cheaper over time, just as EFIS's have. Those who
want to sell, will have to compete. NavWorX just
pushed out their cheaper option first. At the price
we can get it for now, there's no reason not to.
And I say all this after spending more than DOUBLE
the price of this new 600EXP, when I bought my ADS600B
for the RV-14 project less than a month before they
released this new model. Coulda, shoulda, woulda...
But hey, I'll be equipped.
Tim
> On 3/15/2015 2:31 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
>
>
> AirMike wrote:
>> My intuition tells me that this unit resides in the same squishy
>> area as IFR navigation equipment for EAB aircraft, and my guess is
>> that if you put one of these in your EAB aircraft, that there will
>> be no squealing from the powers that be. After all we are not
>> exactly (for the most part) flying high performance turbine
>> equipment. Modern GPS - even in my I-Pad updates way faster than
>> the FAA's antiquated mode C - transponder system. Kudos to these
>> guys for getting this on the shelf for us to meet the 2020
>> deadline.
>
> You'll get no argument from me that the specs are way too stringent.
> But remember the FAA doesn't care about us - they do care about an
> airliner hitting us. So IMHO there will be no relaxation on the
> specs.(IF they did relax them, now, the companies that already are in
> the market with TSO'd boxes would cry foul - and they'd have a
> point). And btw, there's nothing "squishy" about IFR navigation
> equipment. Your operating limitations require you to follow the same
> 91.205 rules as the normally certified aircraft. I applaud Navworks
> for trying to bring the cost down, and in fact this is a very
> competitive price even without a position source. But I won't believe
> "ready for 2020" until I see someone say in writing that the built in
> gps meets 91.227.
>
> -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:11 am Post subject: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
|
|
Does it get preprogrammed by them at the factory then?
I wonder what pins they use on that DB9...
Assuming
Power
Ground
Serial + out
Serial Gnd
Altitude Encoder
I wonder if there is still ...
Transponder Control Serial +
Transponder control serial GND
That leaves only 2 more pins.
Maybe Transponder suppression and one more?
What connector did they use on the antenna then, SMA?
Thanks Jesse, for the info. I knew the insides were the same but
didn't know about the externals.
Tim
On 3/16/2015 9:51 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm with Tim on this. The guts of the EXP is the same as their certified box, but the antenna connectors are different and it's a DB9 instead of a DB37, and you no longer have to hook up to a serial port to program it.
Jesse
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:30 am Post subject: Has Low cost ADS-B arrived? |
|
|
There are still the serial in and out for the communication with the EFIS. There is still the transponder control and ikarus alt. Only one power and ground wire. It gets programmed via Wifi with any number of ipad or other tablet console tool, is the understanding I got from Bill.
The antenna is SMA, which I found out after I crimped a set of stinking TNC connectors for the future install. I hate those things. They charge as if they are solid gold.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
| Quote: | On Mar 16, 2015, at 11:07 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:
Does it get preprogrammed by them at the factory then?
I wonder what pins they use on that DB9...
Assuming
Power
Ground
Serial + out
Serial Gnd
Altitude Encoder
I wonder if there is still ...
Transponder Control Serial +
Transponder control serial GND
That leaves only 2 more pins.
Maybe Transponder suppression and one more?
What connector did they use on the antenna then, SMA?
Thanks Jesse, for the info. I knew the insides were the same but
didn't know about the externals.
Tim
On 3/16/2015 9:51 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
>
>
> I'm with Tim on this. The guts of the EXP is the same as their certified box, but the antenna connectors are different and it's a DB9 instead of a DB37, and you no longer have to hook up to a serial port to program it.
>
> Jesse
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
