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Knowing the actual fuel level?

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Rick Moss

Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 96

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:15 pm Post subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

Hi all,



My XS TG has an Avelec electronic fuel gauge, which is useful as a vague indication, but little else. When it reads 54 litres (the highest it ever reads), I can still put another 18 litres into the tank. It then reads 54 litres for around an hour of flight, before dropping in 2 litre increments in a plausible manner.



Bottom line: I only know accurately how much fuel I have when it's overflowing or empty (excl reserve). Given that the tank can't be dipped, what are you chaps using for fuel measurement?



Thanks in advance,



Rick

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:50 pm Post subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

Rick,

I had the original sight gage installed per Europa instructions.  It only tells you when the fuel “may” be getting low.  For a better idea of the fuel usage, I installed the dual fuel flow option on my Grand Rapids EIS4000.  When calibrated, it seems to be accurate to much better than a half pint (about 250 cc) in a tank of gas.  



When I replaced my leaking tank last year I removed the original, pretty much useless, sight gage and replaced it with a sight gage that runs from the bottom of the tank, main side, up between the seats, near the pilot:



[img]cid:22EDE013-1F72-427F-95FD-AC2F99B6C059[/img]



It is also back lit with a string of 12v lEDs.  The remainder of the 15 ft (5 meter) string is run around the inside of the tunnel for inside work illumination.  It’s not shown in the picture but there is a switch/dimmer for the lighting.  I used the ties to mark calibration points: 06 gal (at) bottom of lower P-clip; 07 gal, top of lower P-clip; 08 gal (at) first white tie; 09 gal (at) 2nd white tie, 10 gal (at) 1st black tie; 11 gal (at) white tie; 12 gal (at) white tie; 13 gal (at) white tie; 14 gal (at) white tie; 15 gal (at) 2nd black tie; 19 gal (at) top of upper P-clip; 20 gal (at) top of gage.  You can see that in this picture the tank is holding 15 gal.



In the 25 hrs or so I have flown since replacing the tank, this gage has proven to be almost as accurate as the totalizer down to where the gage disappears.  When the fuel disappears in the gage you are close to a mandatory switch to reserve and time to find a place to land if you are not already there.



Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX  76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:16 PM, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com (Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com)> wrote:--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rick Moss" <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com (Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com)>Hi all,My XS TG has an Avelec electronic fuel gauge, which is useful as a vague indication, but little else. When it reads 54 litres (the highest it ever reads), I can still put another 18 litres into the tank. It then reads 54 litres for around an hour of flight, before dropping in 2 litre increments in a plausible manner.Bottom line: I only know accurately how much fuel I have when it's overflowing or empty (excl reserve). Given that the tank can't be dipped, what are you chaps using for fuel measurement?Thanks in advance,Rick

IMG_7770em.jpg

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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

Hi Rick,



The Avelec should work better than you described. Perhaps you should re-calibrate it. There are also expensive fuel flow indicators like my JPI 450 and others. The most reliable and cheapest solution is the sight tube. I use all 3 . My complaint about the Avelec is that it is difficult to read in sunlight, like all LCD displays. I guess it's my failing eyesight.

Karl





 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

 From: Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com

 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:16:01 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rick Moss" <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com>

 

 Hi all,

 

 My XS TG has an Avelec electronic fuel gauge, which is useful as a vague indication, but little else. When it reads 54 litres (the highest it ever reads), I can still put another 18 litres into the tank. It then reads 54 litres for around an hour of flight, before dropping in 2 litre increments in a plausible manner.

 

 Bottom line: I only know accurately how much fuel I have when it's overflowing or empty (excl reserve). Given that the tank can't be dipped, what are you chaps using for fuel measurement?

 

 Thanks in advance,

 

 Rick

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439515#439515

 

 

 

 

 

 

&g=========
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	




 		 	   		  

  [quote][b]

dpark748(at)icloud.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:16 pm Post subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

Rick,

I use the following fuel computer. Very accurate once you calibrate it. I use two senders for flow and return. Easy to set up in the system.

Dave G-LDVO

FC10 + 2 FT60s from support(at)fdatasystems.com



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 18 Mar 2015, at 8:16 pm, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi all,

 

 My XS TG has an Avelec electronic fuel gauge, which is useful as a vague indication, but little else. When it reads 54 litres (the highest it ever reads), I can still put another 18 litres into the tank. It then reads 54 litres for around an hour of flight, before dropping in 2 litre increments in a plausible manner.

 

 Bottom line: I only know accurately how much fuel I have when it's overflowing or empty (excl reserve). Given that the tank can't be dipped, what are you chaps using for fuel measurement?

 

 Thanks in advance,

 

 Rick

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439515#439515

dpark748(at)icloud.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:19 pm Post subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

Rick,

I have two capacitance senders for the original Europa fuel gauge, but never been reliable.

I submitted a mod to fit a dip stick in one of the holes but came unstuck when LAA wanted a method of ensuring the cap could not be removed when tank full?

Dave



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 18 Mar 2015, at 8:16 pm, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi all,

 

 My XS TG has an Avelec electronic fuel gauge, which is useful as a vague indication, but little else. When it reads 54 litres (the highest it ever reads), I can still put another 18 litres into the tank. It then reads 54 litres for around an hour of flight, before dropping in 2 litre increments in a plausible manner.

 

 Bottom line: I only know accurately how much fuel I have when it's overflowing or empty (excl reserve). Given that the tank can't be dipped, what are you chaps using for fuel measurement?

 

 Thanks in advance,

 

 Rick

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439515#439515

Rick Moss

Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 96

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Knowing the actual fuel level?

Thanks all.



Does anyone know the calibration procedure for the Avelec? May be worth a try in the first instance.

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Knowing the actual fuel level?

Rick,

My Avelec fuel gauge has always been very unreliable. I scrap it and installed a resistive unit long ago.

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Knowing the actual fuel level?

The Europa fuel measurement options are all problematic.



The original sight gauge was difficult to read and inaccurate. The sight 

gauge I installed between the seats still has two very significant problems.

One: the vent for the sight tube of necessity must have some bends in the

tubing, allowing fuel to become trapped and preventing the gauge from 

free venting. This occurs when line boys are over exuberant about 

filling up the filler neck and flooding the vent line (which I have opening

into the top of the filler neck).  Trapped fuel then causes the sight tube to

read inches low.

Two: The curious saddle bag design of the tank allows easy, yet 

undetectable shifting of what fuel you may believe to be in the reserve 

side into the main, potentially leaving nothing for reserve. This has happened

after some gentleman macro and even after some steep turns in the 

presence of bumpy air.



The capacitive measurement systems are all non-starters where we are

fortunate to have choices in fuel (av vs. mo-gas).



The remediation I have been playing with involves two honeywell pressure

transducers at the bottom of each fuel bung feeding an Arduino with a

touch sensitive LCD screen. Not quite finished for publication, but the 

thought is that it should provide legible, filtered, reliable fuel weight on

each side, calibrated to the funky shape of the tank.



Two design decisions I made in the prototype may come back to force a 

revision: I did not use differential transducers because 1) the limited 

altitude range I normally fly at would lead to a trivial error by neglecting

head space pressure (also very difficult to find gasoline-tolerant differential

transducers), and 2) by installing the transducers at a tee in the 

bungs, there will be a small artifactual pressure drop which varies with

fuel flow.



When I finish testing, I will let you know.

IMG_2434.JPG

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Arduino based fuel gauge.

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Viewed:

9322 Time(s)

_________________
Ira N224XS

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:21 am Post subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

Ira 



that has the potential to be a brilliant solution.

Graham



        From: rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Thursday, 19 March 2015, 13:05

 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Knowing the actual fuel level?

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>



The Europa fuel measurement options are all problematic.



The original sight gauge was difficult to read and inaccurate. The sight 

gauge I installed between the seats still has two very significant problems.

One: the vent for the sight tube of necessity must have some bends in the

tubing, allowing fuel to become trapped and preventing the gauge from 

free venting. This occurs when line boys are over exuberant about 

filling up the filler neck and flooding the vent line (which I have opening

into the top of the filler neck).  Trapped  fuel then causes the sight tube to

read inches low.

Two: The curious saddle bag design of the tank allows easy, yet 

undetectable shifting of what fuel you may believe to be in the reserve 

side into the main, potentially leaving nothing for reserve. This has happened

after some gentleman macro and even after some steep turns in the 

presence of bumpy air.



The capacitive measurement systems are all non-starters where we are

fortunate to have choices in fuel (av vs. mo-gas).



The remediation I have been playing with involves two honeywell pressure

transducers at the bottom of each fuel bung feeding an Arduino with a

touch sensitive LCD screen. Not quite finished for publication, but the 

thought is that it should provide legible, filtered, reliable fuel weight on

each side, calibrated to the funky shape of the tank.



Two design decisions I made in the prototype may come back to force a 

revision: I  did not use differential transducers because 1) the limited 

altitude range I normally fly at would lead to a trivial error by neglecting

head space pressure (also very difficult to find gasoline-tolerant differential

transducers), and 2) by installing the transducers at a tee in the 

bungs, there will be a small artifactual pressure drop which varies with

fuel flow.



When I finish testing, I will let you know.



--------

Ira N224XS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439585#439585





Attachments: 



http://forums.matronics.com="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http:                     &nbs//www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co==================

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

dpark748(at)icloud.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:36 am Post subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

Sounds good news waiting for further progress. 

Dave G-LDVO



Sent from my iPhone



On 19 Mar 2015, at 13:18, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

[quote]Ira 



that has the potential to be a brilliant solution.

Graham



        From: rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, 19 March 2015, 13:05

 Subject: Re: Knowing the actual fuel level?

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>



The Europa fuel measurement options are all problematic.



The original sight gauge was difficult to read and inaccurate. The sight 

gauge I installed between the seats still has two very significant problems.

One: the vent for the sight tube of necessity must have some bends in the

tubing, allowing fuel to become trapped and preventing the gauge from 

free venting. This occurs when line boys are over exuberant about 

filling up the filler neck and flooding the vent line (which I have opening

into the top of the filler neck).  Trapped  fuel then causes the sight tube to

read inches low.

Two: The curious saddle bag design of the tank allows easy, yet 

undetectable shifting of what fuel you may believe to be in the reserve 

side into the main, potentially leaving nothing for reserve. This has happened

after some gentleman macro and even after some steep turns in the 

presence of bumpy air.



The capacitive measurement systems are all non-starters where we are

fortunate to have choices in fuel (av vs. mo-gas).



The remediation I have been playing with involves two honeywell pressure

transducers at the bottom of each fuel bung feeding an Arduino with a

touch sensitive LCD screen. Not quite finished for publication, but the 

thought is that it should provide legible, filtered, reliable fuel weight on

each side, calibrated to the funky shape of the tank.



Two design decisions I made in the prototype may come back to force a 

revision: I  did not use differential transducers because 1) the limited 

altitude range I normally fly at would lead to a trivial error by neglecting

head space pressure (also very difficult to find gasoline-tolerant differential

transducers), and 2) by installing the transducers at a tee in the 

bungs, there will be a small artifactual pressure drop which varies with

fuel flow.



When I finish testing, I will let you know.



--------

Ira N224XS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439585#439585





Attachments: 



http://forums.matronics.com="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http:                     &nbs//www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co==================

 

 

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  



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"3D"courier" new,courier"="">[url=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List[/url]

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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[b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:46 am Post subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

I would contact avelec.co.uk and ask them to email the calibration instructions.  I have found the readings quite accurate, but then I use mostly the same fuel, and I make sure I never fly with a tank that is almost empty

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:57 am Post subject: Knowing the actual fuel level?

I have a similar system as Ira describes based off Tony K's design using a

PIC micro that drives a 10 segment LED display.  Its calibrated to take care

of the shape of the tank and each segment is a linear progression, aka ~ 1.8

gallons per segment.



It has been trouble free for 10 years and the only issue is that is reads

high for a little while when climbing and low when descending until it

settles out. The sensor is differential with one side in the lowest point of

the fuel system and the other in the tank vent.  I never did get to the

bottom of the climbing / descending issue.



I like Ira's approach using more modern technology such as the Arduino with

a touch sensitive LCD screen. Mine is older technology and finicky thing to

get working

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Knowing the actual fuel level?

We have a mono which means fuel quantity measuring devices will indicate differently depending on whether the aircraft is in level flight attitude or ground attitude.  Adds a bit of complexity to the problem!



We rely most on the fuel computer built into our GRT EIS and EFIS.  This has two separate FlowScan transducers, one for in and one for return.  It has proven to be accurate, probably within 1/2 gallon.  It's hard to know how accurate it is,  since it is difficult to measure fuel quantity accurately with a sight gauge.



We have a sight gauge positioned on the rear wall of the cockpit module and connected to the port side tank water drain.  This is calibrated for ground attitude and we use it when refueling.  We compare it to the fuel computer.  Due to it's location, it is not visible in flight.



Andrew Sarangan suggested an alternative to a sight gauge. We don't know what the current status of this novel idea is.  Here is the thread:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=103987&highlight=fuel+level



In flight we use two differential pressure sensors, one on each tank drain.  The transducers are Freescale MPXV4006DP.  They output 0-5 volts which our EIS accepts as aux inputs.  Our GRT EFIS has a tank calibration table so we account for the shape of the tank there and we did that calibration in level flight attitude.  We have each sensor calibrated from 0 - 3 gal.  So each will show the amount of fuel in its 3 gal side.  When both are at 3 gal, we then display both sensors as having 6 gal and they change together.  When we have less than 6 gal on board, we just add the amount each shows.  We ignore the fuel quantity indications from these sensors when on the ground!



This system works pretty well.  We are confident enough to use fuel out of the port tank until no more than 1 gallon remains.  We then switch to the stbd tank and complete the flight.  Of course when low on fuel, we monitor the fuel computer and the differential fuel pressure closely.   



Ira, we found that with a forward facing tank vent on the belly of the aircraft, there is enough ram air pressure that we had to use differential transducers connected to the tank vent.  We tried differential sensors vented to ambient pressure and found large errors.



Jim & Heather

N241BW

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