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michael(at)wikstrom.cc
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 Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:16 pm Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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Hi
I can confirm that the M14P starts perfectly well on pure nitrogen. On a few occasions I've emptied my normal bottles and
the only thing they had at the airport where I was (Trieste in Italy) was nitrogen. My standard bottle was completely empty and we filled to 50 bar with nitrogen
and it started immediately.
Michael Wikstrom
Yak18T
France
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:02 pm Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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The only thing I will say is my own Yak 52 would absolutely NOT start on N2. I agree with everything Mark Bitterlich posted on the subject. Particularly the accuracy of the air start valve timing.
Dennis
From: "migfighter42(at)gmail.com" <migfighter42(at)gmail.com>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Air Leak Advice
My 1992 Yak-52 will not start on Nitrogen, period. The 1985 of which I own a part (not sure why) will start on N2. I learned this the hard way one weekend when we ran out of scuba air and used N2 that we normally use in the MiG/L-29. Nothing, nada, kaput! At first we thought it was a ignition issue, but it came on too suddenly. We swapped the N2 for breathing air in the hanger and all the aircraft play nicely now.
To the comment of the valves being closed, most high performance engines have both valves open during part of the normal compression operation (overlap) because the velocity of the incoming gas and the outgoing gas separates the pre and post burn volumes of air. When starting at a low RPM, it is possible to get enough N2 into the cylinder to cause a no-start.
As explained by Dennis, some M14’s inject N2 into the cylinder that the “shower of sparks” is used. Some do not. I suspect that Dennis will chime in at some point on the issue.
Bill
Sent from Windows Mail
From: Michael Wikstrom
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 3:15 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Michael Wikstrom" <michael(at)wikstrom.cc>
Hi
I can confirm that the M14P starts perfectly well on pure nitrogen. On a few occasions I've emptied my normal bottles and
the only thing they had at the airport where I was (Trieste in Italy) was nitrogen. My standard bottle was completely empty and we filled to 50 bar with nitrogen
and it started immediately.
Michael Wikstrom
Yak18T
France
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jliltd
Joined: 26 Jun 2013
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:00 pm Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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Mark, et al...
Thank you for your very insightful and borne by experience reply to my Nitrogen comments. Sincerely. Gosh. I learned much today. I guess I am one of the lucky ones who have not experienced trouble with Nitrogen starts. But unlike yourself my experience is very limited.
Herein lies the very nature of the value of the Yak list. Not just this topic but many others. If anybody hasn't said it recently, thanks to every participant. New to the Yak/CJ game or seasoned veteran. Thank you.
Golly. I think I will stick with breathing air for the refill boost bottle and Nitrogen for struts and tires. I owe all y'all a beer. Speaking of which I will be at Sun N Fun 2015 for the 22nd through the 23rd (sans CJ-6) and the beer offer is good. Sapp? Pappy? Sax? Matt? Any other Yak list attendees, owners or not, at SNF. I am really grateful for everyone here on the Matronics Yak List. You guys are the best. Beer is on me.
Jim
-------- Original message --------
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Date: 04/07/2015 8:58 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both pro and con.
While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, another cylinder with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compression cycle, using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise of why in theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the starting bottle.
The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as you might think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on the power stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but what most folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camshaft overlap there will still be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their intake cycle. The Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blow out" any oil collected in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials. Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so).
The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor. If you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be difficult to get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the point where they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not surprise me if more than a few of our aircraft have this device slightly out of time. Put all this together, and the end result is that the engine can be harder to start when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle, but it always WILL start if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pull through.
So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic! 
Mark
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dantpayne(at)icloud.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:17 pm Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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The 52 will start on a full nitrogen charge. Think about it...
Dennis Savarese is correct. Listen to him.
If the air start sequence is in time...you are blowing the pistons down, not sucking in N2. The other cylinders should suck, bang, and blow...
Mine will start off a full nitrogen charge, but only because I adjust my valves every 25-30hrs.
By the way, after a divorce, a chapter 7, and her keeping my money ...I'm back in action, and I owe Kelley Monroe $100.
My 52 will be for sale at Sun N Fun as well...I need money for the 50 project I bought from Dave Hilker with Dennis's assistance...
Keep 'em Flyin',
Dan Payne
Owner, Pilot, A&P-IA
(423)-544-8946
Volunteer Aero Services
Dallas Bay Skypark
1824 E Crabtree Road
Hixson, TN 37343
"Where Airworthiness Means Business!"
[quote] On Apr 8, 2015, at 12:57 AM, Jim <jim(at)jimivey.com> wrote:
Mark, et al...
Thank you for your very insightful and borne by experience reply to my Nitrogen comments. Sincerely. Gosh. I learned much today. I guess I am one of the lucky ones who have not experienced trouble with Nitrogen starts. But unlike yourself my experience is very limited.
Herein lies the very nature of the value of the Yak list. Not just this topic but many others. If anybody hasn't said it recently, thanks to every participant. New to the Yak/CJ game or seasoned veteran. Thank you.
Golly. I think I will stick with breathing air for the refill boost bottle and Nitrogen for struts and tires. I owe all y'all a beer. Speaking of which I will be at Sun N Fun 2015 for the 22nd through the 23rd (sans CJ-6) and the beer offer is good. Sapp? Pappy? Sax? Matt? Any other Yak list attendees, owners or not, at SNF. I am really grateful for everyone here on the Matronics Yak List. You guys are the best. Beer is on me.
Jim
-------- Original message --------
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Date: 04/07/2015 8:58 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Air Leak Advice
Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both pro and con.
While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, another cylinder with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compression cycle, using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise of why in theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the starting bottle.
The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as you might think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on the power stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but what most folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camshaft overlap there will still be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their intake cycle. The Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blow out" any oil collected in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials. Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so).
The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor. If you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be difficult to get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the point where they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not surprise me if more than a few of our aircraft have this device slightly out of time. Put all this together, and the end result is that the engine can be harder to start when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle, but it always WILL start if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pull through.
So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic!
Mark
--
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:53 am Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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Did I read hear 'you owe us a beer' AND you'll be at SnF? BAM (by all means) I shall hunt you down!
And for your generous FREE offer, I shall explain in gruesome detail, how to time a starter valve.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
PS I'll be there all week. 
In a message dated 4/8/2015 1:00:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jim(at)jimivey.com writes:
[quote]Mark, et al...
Thank you for your very insightful and borne by experience reply to my Nitrogen comments. Sincerely. Gosh. I learned much today. I guess I am one of the lucky ones who have not experienced trouble with Nitrogen starts. But unlike yourself my experience is very limited.
Herein lies the very nature of the value of the Yak list. Not just this topic but many others. If anybody hasn't said it recently, thanks to every participant. New to the Yak/CJ game or seasoned veteran. Thank you.
Golly. I think I will stick with breathing air for the refill boost bottle and Nitrogen for struts and tires. I owe all y'all a beer. Speaking of which I will be at Sun N Fun 2015 for the 22nd through the 23rd (sans CJ-6) and the beer offer is good. Sapp? Pappy? Sax? Matt? Any other Yak list attendees, owners or not, at SNF. I am really grateful for everyone here on the Matronics Yak List. You guys are the best. Beer is on me.
Jim
-------- Original message --------
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Date: 04/07/2015 8:58 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both pro and con.
While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, another cylinder with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compression cycle, using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise of why in theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the starting bottle.
The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as you might think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on the power stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but what most folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camshaft overlap there will still be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their intake cycle. The Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blow out" any oil collected in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials. Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so).
The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor. If you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be difficult to get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the point where they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not surprise me if more than a few of our aircraft have this device slightly out of time. Put all this together, and the end result is that the engine can be harder to start when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle, but it always WILL start if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pull through.
So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic!
Mark
--
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Rob Rowe
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice |
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| mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote: | ... but what most folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three). ...
-- |
Being a bit of a pedant I believe it's the lower 4 cylinders (4,5,6,7) that are scavenged on the exhaust stroke.
I'll get my coat ... :-)
Rob R.
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:30 am Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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You are correct. Old age creeping in.
Thanks Rob.
Mark
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:31 pm Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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Yes in painful detail. Well described in the CJ maintenance manual. Much better that Uncle Yakolev's
A free beer and suck, bang, blow... That'll make for an interesting time, Pappy! 😜
Doc
Sent from my iPad
[quote] On Apr 8, 2015, at 6:52 AM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:
Did I read hear 'you owe us a beer' AND you'll be at SnF? BAM (by all means) I shall hunt you down!
And for your generous FREE offer, I shall explain in gruesome detail, how to time a starter valve.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
PS I'll be there all week.
In a message dated 4/8/2015 1:00:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jim(at)jimivey.com writes:
Mark, et al...
Thank you for your very insightful and borne by experience reply to my Nitrogen comments. Sincerely. Gosh. I learned much today. I guess I am one of the lucky ones who have not experienced trouble with Nitrogen starts. But unlike yourself my experience is very limited.
Herein lies the very nature of the value of the Yak list. Not just this topic but many others. If anybody hasn't said it recently, thanks to every participant. New to the Yak/CJ game or seasoned veteran. Thank you.
Golly. I think I will stick with breathing air for the refill boost bottle and Nitrogen for struts and tires. I owe all y'all a beer. Speaking of which I will be at Sun N Fun 2015 for the 22nd through the 23rd (sans CJ-6) and the beer offer is good. Sapp? Pappy? Sax? Matt? Any other Yak list attendees, owners or not, at SNF. I am really grateful for everyone here on the Matronics Yak List. You guys are the best. Beer is on me.
Jim
-------- Original message --------
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Date: 04/07/2015 8:58 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Air Leak Advice
Jim, concur on what you said, but there is somewhat more to consider, both pro and con.
While air is being injected into one cylinder on the power stroke, another cylinder with no air being injected at all, is on the intake, or compression cycle, using nothing but "regular air". That fact supports your premise of why in theory the engine should start perfectly with nitrogen in the starting bottle.
The bad part is that the air distributor is not as straight forward as you might think. Logic says that it simply injects air into each cylinder on the power stroke, in firing order (kinda like a cars distributor), but what most folks do not know is that it ALSO injects air into the lower cylinders when the exhaust valves are OPEN (bottom three). Due to camshaft overlap there will still be some nitrogen in those cylinders when they go into their intake cycle. The Russians designed the air distributor this way to help "blow out" any oil collected in the lower three, which as everyone knows is a fact of life with radials. Their engineers were pretty darn savvy (at least I think so).
The third variable is the actual timing adjustment of the air distributor. If you talk to anyone that has messed with these jewels, they can be difficult to get set "perfectly". It is not unusual for someone to get to the point where they say: "Heck, that's good enough". Point being, it would not surprise me if more than a few of our aircraft have this device slightly out of time. Put all this together, and the end result is that the engine can be harder to start when you have pure nitrogen in the starting bottle, but it always WILL start if you "set it up" correctly with priming and pull through.
So my 2 cents is that EVERYONE is correct regarding this topic!
Mark
--
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:16 am Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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Agree with Dennis. Some will, some will not. I’ve had 2 airplanes and 3 different M14P(PF) and 1 started fine on N2. The other 2 would NOT start on N2.
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 5:02 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Air Leak Advice
The only thing I will say is my own Yak 52 would absolutely NOT start on N2. I agree with everything Mark Bitterlich posted on the subject. Particularly the accuracy of the air start valve timing.
Dennis
From: "migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)" <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Air Leak Advice
My 1992 Yak-52 will not start on Nitrogen, period. The 1985 of which I own a part (not sure why) will start on N2. I learned this the hard way one weekend when we ran out of scuba air and used N2 that we normally use in the MiG/L-29. Nothing, nada, kaput! At first we thought it was a ignition issue, but it came on too suddenly. We swapped the N2 for breathing air in the hanger and all the aircraft play nicely now.
To the comment of the valves being closed, most high performance engines have both valves open during part of the normal compression operation (overlap) because the velocity of the incoming gas and the outgoing gas separates the pre and post burn volumes of air. When starting at a low RPM, it is possible to get enough N2 into the cylinder to cause a no-start.
As explained by Dennis, some M14’s inject N2 into the cylinder that the “shower of sparks” is used. Some do not. I suspect that Dennis will chime in at some point on the issue.
Bill
Sent from Windows Mail
From: Michael Wikstrom
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 3:15 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Michael Wikstrom" <michael(at)wikstrom.cc (michael(at)wikstrom.cc)>
Hi
I can confirm that the M14P starts perfectly well on pure nitrogen. On a few occasions I've emptied my normal bottles and
the only thing they had at the airport where I was (Trieste in Italy) was nitrogen. My standard bottle was completely empty and we filled to 50 bar with nitrogen
and it started immediately.
Michael Wikstrom
Yak18T
France
--
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AcroGimp
Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Posts: 45
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice |
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Update 2 - both check valves rebuilt (thanks Jill for the overhaul kits), reinstalled, system filled and holding at 50 Atm, no leaks.
Put plane up on jacks and had no observable/detectable leak at actuators or handles but the front handle vents a lot of air during extension/retraction. Will fly tomorrow and see how it behaves, possibly overhaul front handle prior to Porterville.
Thanks for the advice so far.
'Gimp
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:33 am Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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Gimp,
The air that is pushed out of the gear actuators when they move either up or down, is vented out of the gear handle. Once the gear is fully up or down, no air should vent out of the gear handle. If it does, that is a sign of internal seal leakage in an actuator. When the gear is actually moving, you SHOULD hear air coming out of the gear handle.
Mark
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AcroGimp
Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Posts: 45
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice |
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| mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote: | Gimp,
The air that is pushed out of the gear actuators when they move either up or down, is vented out of the gear handle. Once the gear is fully up or down, no air should vent out of the gear handle. If it does, that is a sign of internal seal leakage in an actuator. When the gear is actually moving, you SHOULD hear air coming out of the gear handle.
Mark
-- |
Thanks Mark. We do know it releases the air on the up or down side depending on which way it is moving, it just seemed to make a lot of noise before anything started moving, my mechanic said he was pausing at neutral so that might have been why it seemed excessive.
Thanks though, you never know how much anybody knows and it is better to clarify than let a bad assumption go.
'Gimp
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COMM/ASEL/IFR/HP-Complex/TW |
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AcroGimp
Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Posts: 45
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice |
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Update 3 - Flew a form training sortie today after the check valve overhaul, with gear handle UP it was pumping up super slow in the air, setting gear neutral and it pumped up to and regulated at 50 but it seemed to take maybe 15 minutes (took off at about 30-35 Atm after a bunch of taxiing).
Mechanic suspects fwd gear handle (we had no noise from the actuators or a perceptible leak at the gear handles in the UP position on our gear swings yesterday). But, looking at the compressor banjo fitting he thought the crush washers might either be missing or not right size - looked at a spare compressor with a banjo fitting on it and definitely looks different.
When I pull the snot valve release after shutdown I get a good blow down through the valve, sounds like other Yak's I have heard - so it seems the compressor is putting air out, just not sure how much.
Issue seems to be engine running and gear UP - ideas?
'Gimp
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AcroGimp
Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Posts: 45
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice |
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Dennis, in a previous post you suggested the following IF we heard anything from front handle with main air ON and (I assume) aircraft on gear.
| Quote: | Assuming you hear the "hiss" at the front gear selector, you will now have to isolate which actuator is leaking. You will need to remove the
90 degree elbow on the bottom end of the actuator (the end closest to
the chrome shaft) and place your finger over the male 90 degree fitting
with the main air turned on. If the actuator is leaking, you willfeel
and hear the air coming out of the 90 degree fitting. If the first one
you check is ok, move to the other two.
Let me know what you find and I will do my best to help you troubleshoot
the system. |
We were not able to discern any leak at the vent on the front handle with the plane on jacks, nor did we hear anything obvious when the gear were up and locked or down. We cycled the gear with both front and rear handles.
If I don't fly tomorrow I can still do this check and report back.
'Gimp
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:49 am Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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When was the last time your actuators were rebuilt? If you found gunked up check valves I'll bet you a dollar to a dozen do units that your shuttle valves are gunned up and leaking. That also means your chevron seals in the gear sure also on poor condition. Pull the actuators and rebuild them along with replacing the shuttle valves. Soon after that you will have to do the break proportionater valve. Not fun but doable. Don't forget the flap shuttle valves and actuator too.
The air system is a pain in the ass but very functional once you get all of the system cleaned up from years of use or misuse.
They are great airplanes. They are a lot of fun. But! They are labor intensive because they were used hard as military trainers...yeah yeah I know DOOSAF.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Apr 12, 2015, at 10:25 AM, AcroGimp <jlknolla(at)aol.com> wrote:
Dennis, in a previous post you suggested the following IF we heard anything from front handle with main air ON and (I assume) aircraft on gear.
> Assuming you hear the "hiss" at the front gear selector, you will now have to isolate which actuator is leaking. You will need to remove the
> 90 degree elbow on the bottom end of the actuator (the end closest to
> the chrome shaft) and place your finger over the male 90 degree fitting
> with the main air turned on. If the actuator is leaking, you willfeel
> and hear the air coming out of the 90 degree fitting. If the first one
> you check is ok, move to the other two.
>
> Let me know what you find and I will do my best to help you troubleshoot
> the system.
We were not able to discern any leak at the vent on the front handle with the plane on jacks, nor did we hear anything obvious when the gear were up and locked or down. We cycled the gear with both front and rear handles.
If I don't fly tomorrow I can still do this check and report back.
'Gimp
--------
Owner/Pilot N6209F 1987 Yak-52
COMM/ASEL/IFR/HP-Complex/TW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440704#440704
|
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Viperdoc |
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AcroGimp
Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Posts: 45
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice |
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| Viperdoc wrote: | When was the last time your actuators were rebuilt? If you found gunked up check valves I'll bet you a dollar to a dozen do units that your shuttle valves are gunned up and leaking. That also means your chevron seals in the gear sure also on poor condition. Pull the actuators and rebuild them along with replacing the shuttle valves. Soon after that you will have to do the break proportionater valve. Not fun but doable. Don't forget the flap shuttle valves and actuator too.
The air system is a pain in the ass but very functional once you get all of the system cleaned up from years of use or misuse.
They are great airplanes. They are a lot of fun. But! They are labor intensive because they were used hard as military trainers...yeah yeah I know DOOSAF.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
|
Thanks Doc.
Actuator seals were all done about a year ago which is why this is puzzling to me and the mechanic (he did the overhauls), flap maybe 2-3 years ago (logbook not in front of me). Biggest challenge is I am flying the Yak a lot more regularly than previous owner who travels a lot, and because there is a slow leak in the emergency side, I suspect he just got used to topping off the Main system and may not have noticed the stuff that I see since it is all still 'new' to me.
Gear to neutral is an acceptable workaround for the near term, but I'll try Dennis' check on the actuators and we are going to try and doublecheck the compressor banjo as well since that is a known leak path and looked 'non-standard'.
I agree based on some friends' Yak's and CJ's that once it is close to 100% the pneumatics is a remarkably reliable system but these things in general take way more care than the average spam can - doesn't matter once you hit the runup area though and see everybody looking up from the Cessna or Piper and wishing they were you....
'Gimp
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice |
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Looking at the emergency system there are not a lot of places that may leak:
First: check the air tank connection for leaks.
Second: The one way valve next to the air tank
Third: The emergency air tap.
Fourth: The hose connecting the air tank with the manometer. That is what I had years ago. The hose was most likely never changed since day one. If that goes in flight you will have no em. air at all !
Vic
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:12 pm Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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ROFLMAO! Do units! Apple strikes again! Donuts Apple!
Doc
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Apr 12, 2015, at 10:48 AM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com> wrote:
When was the last time your actuators were rebuilt? If you found gunked up check valves I'll bet you a dollar to a dozen do units that your shuttle valves are gunned up and leaking. That also means your chevron seals in the gear sure also on poor condition. Pull the actuators and rebuild them along with replacing the shuttle valves. Soon after that you will have to do the break proportionater valve. Not fun but doable. Don't forget the flap shuttle valves and actuator too.
The air system is a pain in the ass but very functional once you get all of the system cleaned up from years of use or misuse.
They are great airplanes. They are a lot of fun. But! They are labor intensive because they were used hard as military trainers...yeah yeah I know DOOSAF.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 12, 2015, at 10:25 AM, AcroGimp <jlknolla(at)aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dennis, in a previous post you suggested the following IF we heard anything from front handle with main air ON and (I assume) aircraft on gear.
>
>
>> Assuming you hear the "hiss" at the front gear selector, you will now have to isolate which actuator is leaking. You will need to remove the
>> 90 degree elbow on the bottom end of the actuator (the end closest to
>> the chrome shaft) and place your finger over the male 90 degree fitting
>> with the main air turned on. If the actuator is leaking, you willfeel
>> and hear the air coming out of the 90 degree fitting. If the first one
>> you check is ok, move to the other two.
>>
>> Let me know what you find and I will do my best to help you troubleshoot
>> the system.
>
>
> We were not able to discern any leak at the vent on the front handle with the plane on jacks, nor did we hear anything obvious when the gear were up and locked or down. We cycled the gear with both front and rear handles.
>
> If I don't fly tomorrow I can still do this check and report back.
>
> 'Gimp
>
> --------
> Owner/Pilot N6209F 1987 Yak-52
> COMM/ASEL/IFR/HP-Complex/TW
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440704#440704
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
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Viperdoc |
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:13 pm Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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😜
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Apr 12, 2015, at 12:02 PM, AcroGimp <jlknolla(at)aol.com> wrote:
Viperdoc wrote:
> When was the last time your actuators were rebuilt? If you found gunked up check valves I'll bet you a dollar to a dozen do units that your shuttle valves are gunned up and leaking. That also means your chevron seals in the gear sure also on poor condition. Pull the actuators and rebuild them along with replacing the shuttle valves. Soon after that you will have to do the break proportionater valve. Not fun but doable. Don't forget the flap shuttle valves and actuator too.
> The air system is a pain in the ass but very functional once you get all of the system cleaned up from years of use or misuse.
> They are great airplanes. They are a lot of fun. But! They are labor intensive because they were used hard as military trainers...yeah yeah I know DOOSAF.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
Thanks Doc.
Actuator seals were all done about a year ago which is why this is puzzling to me and the mechanic (he did the overhauls), flap maybe 2-3 years ago (logbook not in front of me). Biggest challenge is I am flying the Yak a lot more regularly than previous owner who travels a lot, and because there is a slow leak in the emergency side, I suspect he just got used to topping off the Main system and may not have noticed the stuff that I see since it is all still 'new' to me.
Gear to neutral is an acceptable workaround for the near term, but I'll try Dennis' check on the actuators and we are going to try and doublecheck the compressor banjo as well since that is a known leak path and looked 'non-standard'.
I agree based on some friends' Yak's and CJ's that once it is close to 100% the pneumatics is a remarkably reliable system but these things in general take way more care than the average spam can - doesn't matter once you hit the runup area though and see everybody looking up from the Cessna or Piper and wishing they were you....
'Gimp
--------
Owner/Pilot N6209F 1987 Yak-52
COMM/ASEL/IFR/HP-Complex/TW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440710#440710
|
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rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:56 am Post subject: Air Leak Advice |
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Guessing quite a few of you have heard about this already, but....a Yak 52TW went down in Indiana recently. The only video of the crash site would likely indicate a very vertical, nose-first descent. Internet posting copied below...
Search dogs have detected the body of a missing Indiana pilot in the wreckage of his small airplane, which was found Sunday morning more than a week after the plane dropped off of radar, according to authorities.
The Yak-52 airplane belonging to Glenn Foy, 59, was found in Boone County at 8:40 a.m. ET by crews with the Indiana wing of the Civil Air Patrol in Boone County, said Civil Air Patrol Lt. Col. Tim Turner. The site of the wreckage is about 100 miles from Eagle Creek Airport in Indianapolis, where Foy was last seen on April 3, Turner said.
The aircraft was "impacted into the ground," and recovery crews have not been able to gain access, but "we were just out there with cadaver dogs and they gave an indication that there is likely a body in the wreckage" Turner told NBC News from the site of the crash.
Foy was not reported missing until April 6, Turner said. His girlfriend told authorities that it was "not uncommon for him to get in his plane and go flying and be gone for a day or two," Turner said. At that point, the FAA determined that the "very unique aircraft" dropped off radar on April 3, the same day he took flight, Turner said.
The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the cause of the crash. "There's nothing here that would give us any indication of what happened or why," Turner said.
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //Hangar #35 / AUW
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52^/---//-X
N21YK //
Hangar #21 / AUW
[quote][b]
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