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wrk2win4u
Joined: 12 Nov 2011
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:31 am Post subject: Tail Heavy |
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Greetings Group,
After buying an older Mark III that needed a LOT of fixing, I finally took it out this year for some Fast Taxi testing and a couple of crow hops. I found it was better to fly the pattern than it was to crow hop it. The one thing I have been having difficulty with is it tends to be tail-heavy at about 80mph ias. As I come in for landing, I can reduce some of the pressure on the forward stick due to the diminishing air speed. Boyd Y. and I changed the adjustment position of the flaps in hopes this would help it cruse hands free or relatively stable flight. Currently when I let off the forward pressure on the stick, it starts to climb right away. I have read some previous postings by John H. regarding nose heavy. His writings indicate the Kolb designed to fly as they are and do not require aggressive trimming.
If anyone has had a similar experience with the Mark III appearing to fly tail heavy, and you have been able to resolve the issue, let me know what you did.
Thanks,
Kurt
Mark III C
Sandy, Utah
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:31 pm Post subject: Tail Heavy |
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Kurt
There is tail heavy more accurately called beyond the aft CG limits and there is a rigging or trim issue that makes the plane pitch up. You need to know what the problem is before you can resolve the issue.
Kolbs have a long fuselage and large tail surfaces so they aren't sensitive to CG (Center of Gravity) changes. Do you know where the CG is for your plane? If you don't you need to know this. My VW powered MKIIC needed the battery in the nose cone to get the CG where it needed to be.
Once you have determined that the CG is in the recommended range check that the horizontal stabilizer is mounted according to factory recommendations. I assume you have adjusted the elevator trim lever and maybe the trim spring tension. Reducing the tension will reduce the pitch up condition also assuming it is tight. With every thing else rigged right you get the best performance with the elevator trimmed to set about even with the horizontal stabilizer with a light solo pilot but don't worry about that yet. Check the wing angle of attack for factory recommendations. There is one angle of attack for long gear legs and one for the stock legs with corresponding changes for the horizontal stabilizer. Changes to the flaps and ailerons rigging will have small changes to pitch. I normally like to see flaps and ailerons rigged even with the bottom on the wing.
This will give you something to check on.
As always worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 3:31 PM, K I <wrk2win4u(at)msn.com (wrk2win4u(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Greetings Group,
After buying an older Mark III that needed a LOT of fixing, I finally took it out this year for some Fast Taxi testing and a couple of crow hops. I found it was better to fly the pattern than it was to crow hop it. The one thing I have been having difficulty with is it tends to be tail-heavy at about 80mph ias. As I come in for landing, I can reduce some of the pressure on the forward stick due to the diminishing air speed. Boyd Y. and I changed the adjustment position of the flaps in hopes this would help it cruse “hands free” or relatively stable flight. Currently when I let off the forward pressure on the stick, it starts to climb right away. I have read some previous postings by John H. regarding “nose heavy”. His writings indicate the Kolb designed to fly as they are and do not require aggressive trimming.
If anyone has had a similar experience with the Mark III appearing to fly tail heavy, and you have been able to resolve the issue, let me know what you did.
Thanks,
Kurt
Mark III C
Sandy, Utah
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:56 pm Post subject: Tail Heavy |
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Can someone smarter than me explain adjusting aileron and flaps to eliminate having to push forward on the stick to fly level. (Out of trim feels tall heavy) VS Being tail heavy on the scales....
Boyd Y On Apr 11, 2015 1:33 PM, "K I" <wrk2win4u(at)msn.com (wrk2win4u(at)msn.com)> wrote:[quote]
Greetings Group,
After buying an older Mark III that needed a LOT of fixing, I finally took it out this year for some Fast Taxi testing and a couple of crow hops. I found it was better to fly the pattern than it was to crow hop it. The one thing I have been having difficulty with is it tends to be tail-heavy at about 80mph ias. As I come in for landing, I can reduce some of the pressure on the forward stick due to the diminishing air speed. Boyd Y. and I changed the adjustment position of the flaps in hopes this would help it cruse “hands free” or relatively stable flight. Currently when I let off the forward pressure on the stick, it starts to climb right away. I have read some previous postings by John H. regarding “nose heavy”. His writings indicate the Kolb designed to fly as they are and do not require aggressive trimming.
If anyone has had a similar experience with the Mark III appearing to fly tail heavy, and you have been able to resolve the issue, let me know what you did.
Thanks,
Kurt
Mark III C
Sandy, Utah
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tp://forums.matronics.com
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject: Tail Heavy |
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During flight, pull the flaps on. That will trim the nose down.
If flaps and/or ailerons are reflexed, that pulls the nose up.
If flaps and ailerons are trimmed level with the bottom of the wing on the ground, they will be slightly drooped in flight. Air coming over the wings pushed them down.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 6:57 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tail Heavy
Can someone smarter than me explain adjusting aileron and flaps to eliminate having to push forward on the stick to fly level. (Out of trim feels tall heavy) VS Being tail heavy on the scales....
Boyd Y
On Apr 11, 2015 1:33 PM, "K I" <wrk2win4u(at)msn.com (wrk2win4u(at)msn.com)> wrote:
Greetings Group,
After buying an older Mark III that needed a LOT of fixing, I finally took it out this year for some Fast Taxi testing and a couple of crow hops. I found it was better to fly the pattern than it was to crow hop it. The one thing I have been having difficulty with is it tends to be tail-heavy at about 80mph ias. As I come in for landing, I can reduce some of the pressure on the forward stick due to the diminishing air speed. Boyd Y. and I changed the adjustment position of the flaps in hopes this would help it cruse “hands free” or relatively stable flight. Currently when I let off the forward pressure on the stick, it starts to climb right away. I have read some previous postings by John H. regarding “nose heavy”. His writings indicate the Kolb designed to fly as they are and do not require aggressive trimming.
If anyone has had a similar experience with the Mark III appearing to fly tail heavy, and you have been able to resolve the issue, let me know what you did.
Thanks,
Kurt
Mark III C
Sandy, Utah
01234567890123456789
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Tail Heavy |
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Trimming the ailerons and flaps up or down moves the center of pressure forward or aft on the wing. Droop them, and the center of pressure, (lift) moves back and the airplane becomes more nose heavy. Reflex them up and the center of pressure (lift) moves forward and the airplane becomes more tail heavy. That is why I modified my MKIII flap lever; so I could fine tune trim depending on passenger load.
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg3.htm
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:55 am Post subject: Tail Heavy |
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Mark III appearing to fly tail heavy>>
Put it on the scales and check your figures. It may feel tail heavy because IT IS
Pat
From: B Young (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 12:56 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Tail Heavy
Can someone smarter than me explain adjusting aileron and flaps to eliminate having to push forward on the stick to fly level. (Out of trim feels tall heavy) VS Being tail heavy on the scales....
Boyd Y On Apr 11, 2015 1:33 PM, "K I" <wrk2win4u(at)msn.com (wrk2win4u(at)msn.com)> wrote: [quote]
Greetings Group,
After buying an older Mark III that needed a LOT of fixing, I finally took it out this year for some Fast Taxi testing and a couple of crow hops. I found it was better to fly the pattern than it was to crow hop it. The one thing I have been having difficulty with is it tends to be tail-heavy at about 80mph ias. As I come in for landing, I can reduce some of the pressure on the forward stick due to the diminishing air speed. Boyd Y. and I changed the adjustment position of the flaps in hopes this would help it cruse “hands free” or relatively stable flight. Currently when I let off the forward pressure on the stick, it starts to climb right away. I have read some previous postings by John H. regarding “nose heavy”. His writings indicate the Kolb designed to fly as they are and do not require aggressive trimming.
If anyone has had a similar experience with the Mark III appearing to fly tail heavy, and you have been able to resolve the issue, let me know what you did.
Thanks,
Kurt
Mark III C
Sandy, Utah
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patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:41 am Post subject: Tail Heavy |
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That is why I modified my MKIII flap lever; so I could fine tune trim
depending on passenger load.>>
Hi Richard. On my Challenger there were no separate ailerons and flaps. Both
ailerons moved in unison for the trim. Winding them right down, from the
cockpit, and they acted as flaps. This also made the nose heavy which suited
me fine. If I was distracted on the approach I would rather the plane went
faster than slowed up and stalled. With the ailerons `up`they acted as fine
trim. A good simple sytem. Pat
--
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:16 am Post subject: Tail Heavy |
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Pat,
My mk 3 with just me in it is at the aft limit of it's CG.If I use 1 notch of flap and higher power setting it will fly about level,but in rough air it would pitch nose up and then return to level,kind of like riding over a wake of a boat.With a passenger its perfect.I attached 2 rings to the passenger floor and I strap in about 30 pounds of lead shot in a thick plastic liner, then covered with a denim bag.That stops the wallow in rough air and fixes the trim issue.I'll probably get taken to task for using this method but it works.I was going to try raising the horizontal tail leading edge but never came up with a clean way to do it.
G.Aman MK 3 C Jabiru 2200A 950 hrs
--
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Tail Heavy |
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| zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: | Pat,
I was going to try raising the horizontal tail leading edge but never came up with a clean way to do it.
G.Aman MK 3 C Jabiru 2200A 950 hrs
-- |
Here is a semi-clean way to do it:
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/FSIIelevatorbracket.html
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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