Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Alternator Position

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

michaelrorth

Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 65

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:10 am Post subject: Alternator Position

Hello All,



Is it acceptable to move a (now) horizontally-mounted to a vertical-mounted position?



I'm not concerned with the electrical operation of the alternator but rather the bearing points of the rotor will change from two to one.



Thanks,



Michael

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:40 am Post subject: Alternator Position

At 11:10 2015-05-07, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello All,



Is it acceptable to move a (now) horizontally-mounted to a 

vertical-mounted position?



I'm not concerned with the electrical operation of the alternator 

but rather the bearing points of the rotor will change from two to one.



Thanks,



Michael


	


   What kind of alternator are we talking about?



   Bob . . .

michaelrorth

Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 65

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:03 am Post subject: Alternator Position

Hi Bob,



Actually, I must revise my original post.



I have a generator..not an alternator.

Of course, it is buried by other equipment and I am unable to make out the 

nomenclature tag without extensive dismantling.

The Parts Manual is mum on the subject of manufacturer.

The generator is 25 amps and externally regulated.

It is currently mounted on a Continental IO-470-L.  Beech Baron.

It is belt-driven.



Thanks,

Michael



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--

ngeorge(at)continentalmot
Guest

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:10 am Post subject: Alternator Position

Michael - 

Give me a call and let's discuss.



Neal George

Tech Support

Continental Motors

888-826-5465



Do not archive


--> <mosurf(at)xplornet.com>



Hi Bob,



Actually, I must revise my original post.



I have a generator..not an alternator.

Of course, it is buried by other equipment and I am unable to make out the nomenclature tag without extensive dismantling.

The Parts Manual is mum on the subject of manufacturer.

The generator is 25 amps and externally regulated.

It is currently mounted on a Continental IO-470-L.  Beech Baron.

It is belt-driven.



Thanks,

Michael

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:41 am Post subject: Alternator Position

At 13:01 2015-05-07, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Bob,



Actually, I must revise my original post.



I have a generator..not an alternator.

Of course, it is buried by other equipment and I am unable to make 

out the nomenclature tag without extensive dismantling.

The Parts Manual is mum on the subject of manufacturer.

The generator is 25 amps and externally regulated.

It is currently mounted on a Continental IO-470-L.  Beech Baron.

It is belt-driven.



Thanks,

Michael


	


    Interesting. As Neal has suggested, he may

    be able to offer advise that's more application

    specific. But I am curious as to how the installation

    became 'vertical'.



    I can't imagine that it would make any difference

    for bearings. While there are such things as THRUST

    bearings designed to take rated loads axially

    oriented to the shaft, a ball bearing still

    has significant performance for axial loading.



    A major force on the belt driven generator

    is belt tension.  I would imagine armature

    weight to be on the order of 1/3 or less

    the belt force.



    The force vector on the bearing would move

    out of the bottom of the races . . . but

    they're hard there too. The weakest mechanical

    link in a generator is brush-wear. I suspect

    you'll be replacing brushes at much shorter

    intervals than for any other reason. Once you

    have the machine off the airplane for attention,

    you might as well replace bearings at the same

    time . . . they're probably cheaper than the

    brushes!



    But give Neal a buzz and let us know what

    you discover.



   Bob . . .

michaelrorth

Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 65

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:30 am Post subject: Alternator Position

Hi Bob,



Just got off the telephone with Neal George from Continental.

Neal is a very nice and knowledgeable man who is also very easy to talk to.



With regard to how the generator may become "vertical" as opposed to its 

current horizontal orientation, it is moving to an M-14 from a Continental 

IO-470-L.

In the process, it will also become gear-driven rather than belt-driven.



Neal agreed with you that the perpendicular force vector. . .the force 

applied on the armature perpendicular to the axis of rotation by the drive 

belt. . .would be lessened with a gear-driven installation.

Neal also agreed that the physical orientation of the generator should have 

no effect on its mechanical life.



Thanks to both you and Neal for your help,



Michael



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Alternator Position

As Bob says, most ball bearings still have significant performance for thrust as well as axial loads.  After installation, check for bearing noise using a stethoscope (cheap rod in ear type).  Compare it with noise from the upper bearing.   Afterward, occasionally listen for increased noise (growling or clicking) at the lower bearing.  



If problems arise with the lower bearing, substitute an Angular Contact Bearing which is designed to better accept both radial and thrust loads.  Fafnir 7000 series comes to mind.   Any good bearing supply house should be able to help.  Remember that angular contact bearings are directional and are designed for thrust load in one direction only.  If you view the bearing, one side will have less spacing between races; that is the side which will accept increased thrust loads.

_________________
Jerry King

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:29 am Post subject: Alternator Position

At 12:28 2015-05-08, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Bob,



Just got off the telephone with Neal George from Continental.

Neal is a very nice and knowledgeable man who is also very easy to talk to.



With regard to how the generator may become "vertical" as opposed to 

its current horizontal orientation, it is moving to an M-14 from a 

Continental IO-470-L.

In the process, it will also become gear-driven rather than belt-driven.



Neal agreed with you that the perpendicular force vector. . .the 

force applied on the armature perpendicular to the axis of rotation 

by the drive belt. . .would be lessened with a gear-driven installation.

Neal also agreed that the physical orientation of the generator 

should have no effect on its mechanical life.



Thanks to both you and Neal for your help,


	


    Michael, Understand. Be aware too that

    B&C has a PM alternator . . . a 3-phase

    20-30 amp class that fits one or more

    Russian round engines. I'm not familiar

    with details. Should the generator mod

    become problematic, check with B&C for

   options.



   Bob . . .

michaelrorth

Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 65

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 6:04 am Post subject: Alternator Position

Thanks Jerry.

Good information.

Michael



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--

michaelrorth

Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 65

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 6:05 am Post subject: Alternator Position

Good Morning Bob,

Thanks for the B & C steer.

Michael



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 8:34 am Post subject: Alternator Position

Fafnir 7000 series comes to mind.   Any good bearing supply house 

should be able to help.  Remember that angular contact bearings are 

directional and are designed for thrust load in one direction 

only.  If you view the bearing, one side will have less spacing 

between races; that is the side which will accept increased thrust loads.



    Was not aware of that product . . . good

    data . . . thanks! Much of what I've learned

    about the "other guy's" sandbox toys has

    been gleaned during my participation on multi-

    discipline tiger-teams assembled to sift

    through the pieces.  It's always nice to

    pick up a knowledge nugget before the

    thing falls apart!



   Bob . . .

joemotis(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject: Alternator Position

This question is for Bob-

In the news today it is being reported that a passenger hacked in to

the planes flight controls and made changes, using the entertainment

system network. Do you feel this is possible?

Anyone else have input on this?



On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 4:28 AM, racerjerry <gnking2(at)verizon.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 As Bob says, most ball bearings still have significant performance for thrust as well as axial loads.  After installation, check for bearing noise using a stethoscope (cheap rod in ear type).  Compare it with noise from the upper bearing.   Afterward, occasionally listen for increased noise (growling or clicking) at the lower bearing.



 If problems arise with the lower bearing, substitute an Angular Contact Bearing which is designed to better accept both radial and thrust loads.  Fafnir 7000 series comes to mind.   Any good bearing supply house should be able to help.  Remember that angular contact bearings are directional and are designed for thrust load in one direction only.  If you view the bearing, one side will have less spacing between races; that is the side which will accept increased thrust loads.



 --------

 Jerry King





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441923#441923

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1922
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Alternator Position

 	  Quote: 	
		   it is being reported that a passenger hacked in to the planes flight controls 	


My take on this is that it is mostly false and rumors.

http://tinyurl.com/pko4qcv

_________________
Joe Gores

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Hacking into flight contols.

 	  Quote: 	
		  This question is for Bob- 

In the news today it is being reported that a passenger hacked in to 

the planes flight controls and made changes, using the entertainment 

system network. Do you feel this is possible? 

Anyone else have input on this? 	




Boeing says the entertainment system and the flight controls and avionics are isolated from each other. I believe them.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

lyleapgmc

Joined: 19 Feb 2014
Posts: 57

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 10:44 am Post subject: Alternator Position

I believe Boeing also.  It would not be sensible       to have the two systems integrated in any way.  

       

       I don't believe most of what the news reports say.  My biggest       issue is with drones.  The media does not know the difference       between a combat equipped drone and a hobby drone.  To them a       drone is a drone is a.......  Any of them will wreak havoc and       destruction on the world.  I believe this led to the FAA getting       there nose under the tent with regard to hobby drones being used       commercially.  Someone at the FAA also noticed that some       entrepreneurs were making money with hobby sized drones that       carried no weapons.  The FAA decided they had to manage these       operations to limit the profits to be had.  How can drone       operation for a hobby be any safer than operating a drone for some       commercial purpose?

       

        The media sells air time and disaster holds the viewer interest.        

       

       I apologize for stealing the thread but the note about the media       got my adrenalin flowing.

       

       Lyle

     

     On 5/17/2015 1:10 PM, Eric M. Jones       wrote:

     

     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> (emjones(at)charter.net)

          	  Quote: 	
		  This question is for Bob- 

In the news today it is being reported that a passenger hacked in to 

the planes flight controls and made changes, using the entertainment 

system network. Do you feel this is possible? 

Anyone else have input on this? 

	
       



Boeing says the entertainment system and the flight controls and avionics are isolated from each other. I believe them.



--------

Eric M. Jones

www.PerihelionDesign.com

113 Brentwood Drive

Southbridge, MA 01550

(508) 764-2072

emjones(at)charter.net





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442196#442196



	
     [b]

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Alternator Position / Hacker

I too believe Boeing, BUT...



I am sure that flight controls are well isolated; especially to vulnerable systems, such as in-flight entertainment; however I am not quite so sure about things like engine indicating systems, where erroneous indications could lead pilots to shut  down an engine or take other emergency measures that might temporarily decrease their margin of safety.



I personally feel that "criminals' like Mr. Roberts should be placed in a special category for exposing faults - or vulnerabilities where no actual harm is done or intended.  Because of profit worries, it would take a very long time [never] for an aircraft manufacturer to admit such a defect in design and we should almost thank such people for exposing these faults before someone with far less scruples acts on them.



Investigate him / pick his brain (& laptop) sentence him to probation under the condition he cooperates fully.   Probation means that if he tried any such hair-brained schemes in the future, he would fully serve out his original sentence in the slammer.

_________________
Jerry King

wtmills

Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 32

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:23 am Post subject: Alternator Position

Very well said.

Bill

SF bay area

Do not archive





Sent via the Samsung Galaxy NoteÂ® II, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone



-------- Original message --------

From: racerjerry  

Date:05/18/2015  8:14 AM  (GMT-08:00) 

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Position 

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>



I too believe Boeing, BUT...



I am sure that flight controls are well isolated; especially to vulnerable systems, such as in-flight entertainment; however I am not quite so sure about things like engine indicating systems, where erroneous indications could lead pilots to shut  down an engine or take other emergency measures that might temporarily decrease their margin of safety.



I personally feel that "criminals' like Mr. Roberts should be placed in a special category for exposing faults - or vulnerabilities where no actual harm is done or intended.  Because of profit worries, it would take a very long time [never] for an aircraft manufacturer to admit such a defect in design and we should almost thank such people for exposing these faults before someone with far less scruples acts on them.



Investigate him / pick his brain (& laptop) sentence him to probation under the condition he cooperates fully.   Probation means that if he tried any such hair-brained schemes in the future, he would fully serve out his original sentence in the slammer.



--------

Jerry King





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442232#442232



_-============================================================

_-=          - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse

_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,

_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

_-= Photoshare, and much much more:

_-=

_-=   --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_-=

_-============================================================

_-=               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

_-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!

_-=

_-=   --> http://forums.matronics.com

_-=

_-============================================================

_-=             - List Contribution Web Site -

_-=  Thank you for your generous support!

_-=                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

_-=   --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution

_-============================================================

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: Alternator Position

I don't think it's too far fetched.  These days so many companies

are negligent in isolating systems.  It doesn't take much to

get 2 systems inadvertently tied together.  If you think about

the entertainment system, that may need access to the SATCOM

link.  But so would potentially many other things on the

plane.  So once you have a system like that where other

systems utilize it, you have potential for hopping from

one system to another.  I'm an IT person myself, and from

everything I've been able to read so far, I personally think it

sounds legit.  And, I think that all the aviation players in

the mess will do their best to cover it up or make it go

away a.s.a.p.  But, the fact that the hacker was very

forthcoming, and had good intentions, is a big bonus.  Imagine

the situation where someone DIDN'T make this known but

other hackers found out.  The consequences are serious.

So if I were the FBI, I'd be asking him to prove it, and in

fact I'd send a couple agents up with him and have him

demonstrate it.  And if it is proven true, I'd be begging

him to help learn as much as possible so it can be fixed.

If it is true, I hope he receives NO punishment.  He

I'm sure learned the lesson enough already not to screw

with flight controls or engines. Had he just found something

smaller to mess with, to test his theory, he may not be

facing the same issues.  Either way, in the end if this

is a real problem, it's a good thing to expose it.  Far

too many companies and engineers do not think about security

when designing systems, and this will be a good wakeup

call.   If it's a hoax, throw him in the slammer for

a while.  But right now, my bet is on it being legit.

Tim

On 5/18/2015 10:14 AM, racerjerry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <gnking2(at)verizon.net>



 I too believe Boeing, BUT...



 I am sure that flight controls are well isolated; especially to

 vulnerable systems, such as in-flight entertainment; however I am not

 quite so sure about things like engine indicating systems, where

 erroneous indications could lead pilots to shut  down an engine or

 take other emergency measures that might temporarily decrease their

 margin of safety.



 I personally feel that "criminals' like Mr. Roberts should be placed

 in a special category for exposing faults - or vulnerabilities where

 no actual harm is done or intended.  Because of profit worries, it

 would take a very long time [never] for an aircraft manufacturer to

 admit such a defect in design and we should almost thank such people

 for exposing these faults before someone with far less scruples acts

 on them.



 Investigate him / pick his brain (& laptop) sentence him to probation

 under the condition he cooperates fully.   Probation means that if he

 tried any such hair-brained schemes in the future, he would fully

 serve out his original sentence in the slammer.



 -------- Jerry King





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442232#442232

lyleapgmc

Joined: 19 Feb 2014
Posts: 57

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: Alternator Position

Now AVweb has taken up the torch.  The FBI has       served warrants on Mr. Roberts who claims to have accessed the       flight and engine controls of a 737 through the television system       by connecting his laptop to the outlet that provides the TV signal       to the seat back television.  

       

 http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/101/3055-full.html?ET=avweb:e3055:223146a:&st=email#224098

     

     The FBI is a government agency so we have to ....................     supply your own last words.

     

     i read this on the internet so it must be true.

     

     On 5/18/2015 10:14 AM, racerjerry       wrote:

     

     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net> (gnking2(at)verizon.net)



I too believe Boeing, BUT...



I am sure that flight controls are well isolated; especially to vulnerable systems, such as in-flight entertainment; however I am not quite so sure about things like engine indicating systems, where erroneous indications could lead pilots to shut  down an engine or take other emergency measures that might temporarily decrease their margin of safety.



I personally feel that "criminals' like Mr. Roberts should be placed in a special category for exposing faults - or vulnerabilities where no actual harm is done or intended.  Because of profit worries, it would take a very long time [never] for an aircraft manufacturer to admit such a defect in design and we should almost thank such people for exposing these faults before someone with far less scruples acts on them.



Investigate him / pick his brain (& laptop) sentence him to probation under the condition he cooperates fully.   Probation means that if he tried any such hair-brained schemes in the future, he would fully serve out his original sentence in the slammer.



--------

Jerry King





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442232#442232



	
     [b]

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:57 am Post subject: Alternator Position

If he's telling the truth, he should be given a medal and a substantial monetary reward.



On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

 

 I don't think it's too far fetched.Â  These days so many companies

 are negligent in isolating systems.Â  It doesn't take much to

 get 2 systems inadvertently tied together.Â  If you think about

 the entertainment system, that may need access to the SATCOM

 link.Â  But so would potentially many other things on the

 plane.Â  So once you have a system like that where other

 systems utilize it, you have potential for hopping from

 one system to another.Â  I'm an IT person myself, and from

 everything I've been able to read so far, I personally think it

 sounds legit.Â  And, I think that all the aviation players in

 the mess will do their best to cover it up or make it go

 away a.s.a.p.Â  But, the fact that the hacker was very

 forthcoming, and had good intentions, is a big bonus.Â  Imagine

 the situation where someone DIDN'T make this known but

 other hackers found out.Â  The consequences are serious.

 So if I were the FBI, I'd be asking him to prove it, and in

 fact I'd send a couple agents up with him and have him

 demonstrate it.Â  And if it is proven true, I'd be begging

 him to help learn as much as possible so it can be fixed.

 If it is true, I hope he receives NO punishment.Â  He

 I'm sure learned the lesson enough already not to screw

 with flight controls or engines. Had he just found something

 smaller to mess with, to test his theory, he may not be

 facing the same issues.Â  Either way, in the end if this

 is a real problem, it's a good thing to expose it.Â  Far

 too many companies and engineers do not think about security

 when designing systems, and this will be a good wakeup

 call.Â  Â If it's a hoax, throw him in the slammer for

 a while.Â  But right now, my bet is on it being legit.

 Tim

 

 

 On 5/18/2015 10:14 AM, racerjerry wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "racerjerry"

 <gnking2(at)verizon.net (gnking2(at)verizon.net)>

 

 I too believe Boeing, BUT...

 

 I am sure that flight controls are well isolated; especially to

 vulnerable systems, such as in-flight entertainment; however I am not

 quite so sure about things like engine indicating systems, where

 erroneous indications could lead pilots to shutÂ  down an engine or

 take other emergency measures that might temporarily decrease their

 margin of safety.

 

 I personally feel that "criminals' like Mr. Roberts should be placed

 in a special category for exposing faults - or vulnerabilities where

 no actual harm is done or intended.Â  Because of profit worries, it

 would take a very long time [never] for an aircraft manufacturer to

 admit such a defect in design and we should almost thank such people

 for exposing these faults before someone with far less scruples acts

 on them.

 

 Investigate him / pick his brain (& laptop) sentence him to probation

 under the condition he cooperates fully.Â  Â Probation means that if he

 tried any such hair-brained schemes in the future, he would fully

 serve out his original sentence in the slammer.

 

 -------- Jerry King

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442232#442232

 

 

 	
 

 ===========

  -

 Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum