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Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

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JohnFrance

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Posts: 77
Location: Grenoble France

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 9:38 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Hi All,

During a flight yesterday I had a fairly strong smell of petrol in the cabin just after take off and while in the climb, it lasted about 2 minutes.



I recently removed the drip trays from under the carbs on the advice of several people. Their view was, it's better to have a few drips catching fire than a bigger volume that has been heated up.



One of the trays did have a horizontal ring around the inside like a tide mark.

The float chambers of both carbs were cleaned and inspected as well as floats and pins for wear. The floats are not part of the various duffer series so I must admit I didn't weigh them. Perhaps I should have!

Upon reassembly I pressurized the system and was particularly attentive to the starboard one that had the "tide mark" inside the tray.



I don't have any proof of the origin of the smell but I made the link to a recent change that I have carried out.



If anyone has any ideas how I might trace the problem or curative measures I would like to know?

Best regards

John

_________________
Europa mono Nr 192

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:23 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Hi John,



I have had almost  the same problem on my aircraft (Trigear 912ULS).  My

fuel smell seems at its worst soon after take off and at initial  throttIe-

back at about 1000 ft. I  thought I had narrowed it down to one of the carbs

flooding after take off and changed the float needles to the latest type and

the problem seemed to go away.  Rotax have tried three different spring

strengths for the float needles so there must be a problem they were trying

to fix.  The problem came back a few weeks ago so I am also interested in

other reports of this problem.



Regards



Brian Davies.



--

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 183

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:18 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

If you have recently dropped the fuel bowel check the gasket has seated correctly when you have reassembled. 



Are the floats, floating correct. See the service bulletin on sinking floats. 



There is a tool for checking that the float operated valve actually has the correct pressure applied when the bowls are full and the floats are floating



Also the new mech pump is higher pressure and can overcome floats if not applying the right pressure on the fuel shutoff valve.



Alan

iRMT

G-OBJT



Sent from my iPhone



[quote] On 11 May 2015, at 19:22, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi John,

 

 I have had almost  the same problem on my aircraft (Trigear 912ULS).  My

 fuel smell seems at its worst soon after take off and at initial  throttIe-

 back at about 1000 ft. I  thought I had narrowed it down to one of the carbs

 flooding after take off and changed the float needles to the latest type and

 the problem seemed to go away.  Rotax have tried three different spring

 strengths for the float needles so there must be a problem they were trying

 to fix.  The problem came back a few weeks ago so I am also interested in

 other reports of this problem.

 

 Regards

 

 Brian Davies.

 

 --

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:59 pm Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Hi all,

You may well find it nothing to do with the engine. 

Look at the inlet fuel cobra pipe connection to the fuel cap, the rubber pipe from the cobra to the tank, and the connection between the rubber pipe and fuel tank. Also the condition of the rubber pipe.

All have the potential to give off smells and on take off, with a full tank, the higher pitch attitude can do this.

Kind regards,

Tim

Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton,

Christchurch,  8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

Ph 64 3 3515166

Mob 0210640221

[quote] On 12/05/2015, at 7:17 am, dpy01 <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:

 If you have recently dropped the fuel bowel check the gasket has seated correctly when you have reassembled. 

 Are the floats, floating correct. See the service bulletin on sinking floats. 

 There is a tool for checking that the float operated valve actually has the correct pressure applied when the bowls are full and the floats are floating

 Also the new mech pump is higher pressure and can overcome floats if not applying the right pressure on the fuel shutoff valve.

 Alan

 iRMT

 G-OBJT

 Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 May 2015, at 19:22, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Hi John,

> 

> I have had almost  the same problem on my aircraft (Trigear 912ULS).  My

> fuel smell seems at its worst soon after take off and at initial  throttIe-

> back at about 1000 ft. I  thought I had narrowed it down to one of the carbs

> flooding after take off and changed the float needles to the latest type and

> the problem seemed to go away.  Rotax have tried three different spring

> strengths for the float needles so there must be a problem they were trying

> to fix.  The problem came back a few weeks ago so I am also interested in

> other reports of this problem.

> 

> Regards

> 

> Brian Davies.

> 

> --

gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:25 pm Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Le 11/05/2015 19:38, JohnFrance a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi All,

 During a flight yesterday I had a fairly strong smell of petrol in the cabin just after take off and while in the climb, it lasted about 2 minutes.



 I recently removed the drip trays from under the carbs on the advice of several people. Their view was, it's better to have a few drips catching fire than a bigger volume that has been heated up.

John and all,
	




Please allow me to chime in.



- Considering the Rotax layout, no drip tray means some fuel *will* drip 

or leak direct onto the superheated exhaust pipes. So, I'd say *do 

reinstall the drip trays*. Whoever gave yout the advice you mentioned is 

not aware of the necessity to drain them with a fire resistant hose to a 

safe place under the airplane. No amount of fuel should be allowed to 

stand in the drip trays themselves.



- The FWL should be gas tight, whatever the conditions under the cowl.

So even with carbs flooding, no fumes should enter the cockpit. I 

suggest you perform a thorough check of the firewall, or at the very 

least do the "lamp-under-the-cowl" night test.



FWIW,

Best regards



Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:21 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Hi Gilles,



I know it is good aero practice to have a gas tight FWL but on the Europa,

with rudder cables passing through it, it is actually impossible to achieve.

Also the external airflow from the engine area can attach to the lower

fuselage and enter the flap slots.  The air then moves forward through the

tunnel and comes up through the control points.  The flow is different

between Mono and Trigear but the end result is fuel leaks "under the bonnet"

can be detected in the cockpit.



Regards



Brian



--

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:37 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Hi Tim,



I thought it must be coming from the areas you suggest, based on the history

of fuel smells in a Europa.  I filled my tank until the cobra pipe was

completely full and sat the aircraft on its tail (it is a Trigear) and left

it for half an hour and then did a very detailed sniff/wipe/visual

inspection of all of the pipe work. - no sign of a leak and no smell.



I have the ally pipe in place of the rubber pipe joining the cobra to the

tank.



The only evidence of fuel leaks I have found are fuel stains below the small

hole in the plenum chamber on the left side.  I assumed that fuel was

overflowing from the left carb float chamber vent pipe which goes into the

plenum chamber and then out through the drain hole.  This only makes sense

when the engine is not running because I would have thought that, in flight,

any overflow would be sucked into the carb intake but maybe I am wrong.



Regards

Brian



--

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:58 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Brian,

My fuel smell came from the Redux join between the cobra and the fuel inlet cap.

After searching the possible engine fuel leaks including the one you have in the plenum chamber, I finally tracked it down to the fuel inlet seal with the cobra.

Effectively the fuel was venting out the join, particularly noticeable on take off, as well as the normal fuel vent.

Cheers,

Tim



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton,

Christchurch,  8052

New Zealand.



ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz



Ph 64 3 3515166

Mob 0210640221

[quote] On 12/05/2015, at 9:35 pm, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Tim,

 

 I thought it must be coming from the areas you suggest, based on the history

 of fuel smells in a Europa.  I filled my tank until the cobra pipe was

 completely full and sat the aircraft on its tail (it is a Trigear) and left

 it for half an hour and then did a very detailed sniff/wipe/visual

 inspection of all of the pipe work. - no sign of a leak and no smell.

 

 I have the ally pipe in place of the rubber pipe joining the cobra to the

 tank.

 

 The only evidence of fuel leaks I have found are fuel stains below the small

 hole in the plenum chamber on the left side.  I assumed that fuel was

 overflowing from the left carb float chamber vent pipe which goes into the

 plenum chamber and then out through the drain hole.  This only makes sense

 when the engine is not running because I would have thought that, in flight,

 any overflow would be sucked into the carb intake but maybe I am wrong.

 

 Regards

 Brian

 

 --

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 5:13 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Thanks Tim,



I will check that again.  I did have a small leak from there after initial

build and resealed it but maybe somethings moved.



Regards



Brian



--

genie(at)swissmail.org
Guest

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:06 pm Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

John,



This reminds me that I had a smell of petrol in my cockpit when parked 

in the hangar. I eventually noticed that there was a fuel tank leak. 

Recently I sealed it. I will see if the smell has disappeared.



Perhaps there is a leak in your fuel tank in a place above the fuel 

level when parked but below the fuel level when taking off and climbing. 

It is not clear to me if your Europa is a monowheel, a tailwheel or a 

nosewheel version. Perhaps you could check if there are leaks in the 

fuel tank at a place which would be above the fuel level when parked but 

below when taking off and climbing.



Good luck with this.



George



On 12/05/2015 09:03, Europa-List Digest Server wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Time: 10:39:05 AM PST US

 Subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

 From: "JohnFrance" <77alembert(at)gmail.com>

 Hi All,

 During a flight yesterday I had a fairly strong smell of petrol in the cabin just

 after take off and while in the climb, it lasted about 2 minutes.



 I recently removed the drip trays from under the carbs on the advice of several

 people. Their view was, it's better to have a few drips catching fire than a

 bigger volume that has been heated up.



 One of the trays did have a horizontal ring around the inside like a tide mark.

 The float chambers of both carbs were cleaned and inspected as well as floats and

 pins for wear. The floats are not part of the various duffer series so I must

 admit I didn't weigh them. Perhaps I should have!

 Upon reassembly I pressurized the system and was particularly attentive to the

 starboard one that had the "tide mark" inside the tray.



 I don't have any proof of the origin of the smell but I made the link to a recent

 change that I have carried out.



 If anyone has any ideas how I might trace the problem or curative measures I would

 like to know?

 Best regards

 John

gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 2:31 pm Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Brian,



Thank you for the information.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I know it is good aero practice to have a gas tight FWL but on the Europa,

 with rudder cables passing through it, it is actually impossible to achieve.


	


I would have thought that it could be easily addressed with leather 

bellows, like on vintage aircraft.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Also the external airflow from the engine area can attach to the lower

 fuselage and enter the flap slots.


	


This one beats me, but when there is a will there is a way...



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 1:47 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Hi Gilles,



I think leather bellows is probably the way to go.  I have been chasing

higher than normal CO levels on my aircraft, hence the research into

airflows from the engine compartment.  I have been looking at bellows around

the pitch tube behind the baggage bay to close off the airflow through the

flap slots and forward through the tunnel.  I am ,however, struggling to

understand why I should have a problem on my aircraft when others are not

reporting problems.



The trouble with measuring CO with a digital sensor is that once you know

the reading you feel you should do something about it, even if it is within

limits.  I am getting 11 - 20 ppm in cruise and up to 35ppm on approach with

the flaps down, with a normal limit of 50ppm for GA aircraft but zero would

be better!



Regards



Brian



--

gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 7:37 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Le 13/05/2015 11:46, Brian Davies a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The trouble with measuring CO with a digital sensor is that once you know

 the reading you feel you should do something about it, even if it is within

 limits.

Hi Brian,
	




So true^^!

Also the higher the number of parameters measured, the higher the amount 

of head scratching...



Best regards

richard collings

Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 73
Location: warwickshire england

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:22 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Hi Gilles & Brian

Watching your email thread I would like to add my 2 pennies, I was aware 

that there was a problem with exhaust gasses entering the cabin through the 

flap slots on each side of the fuselage so I made a bulk head from the rear 

of the baggage bay floor to the floor of the aircraft [in 2 pieces] I am 

going to seal them air tight with foam rubber so that under the baggage bay 

is air tight to the cabin.

I have had only one problem associated with engine smells from the start and 

that is a smell of fuel when I switch on the electric fuel pump. Fuel 

pressure remain the same with fuel pump no or off. No leaks found so far its 

very strange.

Regards

Richard

G-CGZV Tri-gear 912ul 115hrs



--

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:16 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Hi Richard,



I am not sure I understand what you intend to do regarding sealing.  The

large diameter pitch control tube passes through the area you are talking

about and would require some form of bellows to seal and allow movement- Or

have I misunderstood?



Regards



Brian



--

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:20 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Brian and Gilles,

Great discussion topic.



I had a bit of a problem in 12AY.  I was normally asphyxiated by 5000 feet 

on a climb out by exhaust smell.



I foolishly placed my NACA duct about half way up the port side.

The exhaust from my stack on the 914 followed the prop wash and wing up-wash 

right into the duct.  NASTY.  OK in cruise, but went directly into the vent 

on climb out.

Moved to the Ultimate Ventilators in the windscreen and have been problem 

free.



Exhaust/CO caused me to seal the NACA, wing fillet on the port side tightly, 

and of course the firewall.

Firewall seals were easy using RTV or silicone sealant.  Rudders were not 

the problem.  Grease the tubes and then RTV the small gap.  Wait till dry 

and move the rudders and it was done.



Mono's are a particular problem.  Bellows work well to seal the rudder cable 

holes.  Our flat firewall has much smaller cable holes and can be sealed by 

riveting on a piece of Red silicone cowl seal and make a slit in it.  Not 

perfect but simple and effective...  The mono tends to allow air into the 

cockpit through the handles.  Tough to seal, but for winter comfort, 

necessary.



Fuel smell haunted me for the first year or so.

I got rid of the rubber fuel inlet hose, and more importantly sealed the 

fuel tank to filler neck with just a bit of ProSeal.

The fuel sender gasket would smell of fuel and leak when filled to the neck 

just a bit.  Again, proper sealing fixed that.

Changing to R14 or proper VOC compliant fuel line took care of that 

lingering smell caused by the ethanol car fuel and additives.

Pitty no one I know produces a braded fuel hose which is ethanol fuel smell 

(VOC) compliant for the mono tunnel.

Teflon hose works, but gets brittle and cracks.  Nothing is perfect.



Common fuel smell/ leaks:



Overflowing carb float bowls which were not tested properly.

Improperly seated carb bowls.

Drain lines venting into the mono hole which goes directly to the cockpit it 

seams.

Fuel tank fittings over or under tightened.

Fuel tank sender gaskets.

Fuel tank inlet hose and vent line leaks.



Sealing techniques for the CO:

Exhaust leaks in the 912S on the XS exhaust muffler are terrible.  I am 

trying a high temp sealant for the ball joints in the muffler to pipe 

connection.  We'll know more in a couple weeks.

(Look for soot which is brown streaks running up the exhaust pipes.  Often 

these jets of gas are directly hitting the carbs.)

Exhaust pipe to head seals leaking.  (Use lapping compound and rotate the 

pipe side to side until a seal is achieved at the proper pipe angle.)

The 914 exhaust seems trouble free.

Exhaust muffler pipe cowl exit placement can't be changed much, but the 

longer the pipe the better it seems.

Keep air vents far forward, and near the door flange line to prevent port 

side exhaust smell from entering the vent.

On the mono, try to seal up the firewall and keep the drains well off to the 

side of the cowl exit near the foot well.

Seal cockpit holes through the firewall and mono tunnel lever gaps with 

silicone or similar to seal your tunnel from the cockpit.

Wing gap seals need to be filled as well as possible.  I use a window/door 

tape type seal that has a rubber coating and compresses well to seal the 

gap.



With all the above, finally have no fuel/exhaust smells or CO problems.



Regards,

Bud Yerly



--

Justin(at)systemwise.co.u
Guest

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

HI Guys, <?xml:namespace prefix = "o" ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />  

  

I am a bit reluctant to stick my neck out but I have a possible reason and solution for your smelly climbs. 

When my Europa was about 2 years old, 9 years now, We had the same problem with fuel smell after take-off and came to a conclusion which has not been mentioned in the  discussions on this subject. So here goes. 

We think it depends on which side you fuel tank vent is on.  In this example the vent  is in the usual place on the Starboard side top front corner of the tank. So as you climb out into a right hand circuit  the right wing is going to be lower than the left for long periods.  The fuel  in the tank slurps to the right. The result is a pocket of air trapped on the upper left side of the tank. The size of the pocket of air is dependent on how full the tank is at the time.  As the plane climbs the pressure drops and the pocket of air expands. Assuming the fuel is covering the actual fuel vent on the right then there is nowhere for the fuel to go  other than up the vent and pour over the back of the fuselage. I think that it is this that creates the smell of fuel that only lasts a short time. We experienced this phenomenon with ours and noticed there was no smell if the tanks were less than about 1/2  full. 

Also trying to reproduce the problem was easy. After take-off with nearly full tanks I flew a long gently curved climb to the right which promptly obliged with a strong fuel  smell. As a result we put in an additional vent on the other side of the tank. 

There have been no fuel smells in the climb since. 

Those with this smell could try this and then do it again with 1/2  tanks. 

Also level up in the climb out every now and then to release the air to the vent on the right and see if it stops it. 

Obviously your vents may be different but you can apply the theory. 

There are numerous potential sites for a fuel leak but when it is only in the climb it has got to be climb related. I notice everyone is most specific about it happening in  the climb. 

I  may be talking bunk but it is surely worth discussion J.  

Fly safe 

  

Justin Kennedy 

G-ZTED Europa Mono 912S Airmaster Prop 

East of Scotland Strut 

 

     [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 1:27 pm Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

Further to Justin’s information below ,  I have never had fuel smells (other than the usual porous filler suspicions!)but have a different arrangement for venting in that my vent goes up to the ceiling from the starboard side of the tank to a collection bottle aligned to aim down back to the tank filler ( so that it will drain back to tank) but with an overflow connection from the back end of the bottle across the ceiling and down the port side to exit at the port flap hinge slot in the floor. To my knowledge there has never been any fuel lost out the vent or even when overfilling the main tank.

Regards to all.

Bob Harrison. G-PTAG

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin Kennedy

Sent: 15 May 2015 21:26

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

 

HI Guys, 

 

I am a bit reluctant to stick my neck out but I have a possible reason and solution for your smelly climbs.

When my Europa was about 2 years old, 9 years now, We had the same problem with fuel smell after take-off and came to a conclusion which has not been mentioned in the discussions on this subject. So here goes.

We think it depends on which side you fuel tank vent is on.  In this example the vent  is in the usual place on the Starboard side top front corner of the tank. So as you climb out into a right hand circuit the right wing is going to be lower than the left for long periods.  The fuel  in the tank slurps to the right. The result is a pocket of air trapped on the upper left side of the tank. The size of the pocket of air is dependent on how full the tank is at the time.  As the plane climbs the pressure drops and the pocket of air expands. Assuming the fuel is covering the actual fuel vent on the right then there is nowhere for the fuel to go other than up the vent and pour over the back of the fuselage. I think that it is this that creates the smell of fuel that only lasts a short time. We experienced this phenomenon with ours and noticed there was no smell if the tanks were less than about 1/2 full.

Also trying to reproduce the problem was easy. After take-off with nearly full tanks I flew a long gently curved climb to the right which promptly obliged with a strong fuel smell. As a result we put in an additional vent on the other side of the tank.

There have been no fuel smells in the climb since.

Those with this smell could try this and then do it again with 1/2  tanks.

Also level up in the climb out every now and then to release the air to the vent on the right and see if it stops it.

Obviously your vents may be different but you can apply the theory.

There are numerous potential sites for a fuel leak but when it is only in the climb it has got to be climb related. I notice everyone is most specific about it happening in the climb.

I  may be talking bunk but it is surely worth discussion J. 

Fly safe

 

Justin Kennedy

G-ZTED Europa Mono 912S Airmaster Prop

East of Scotland Strut



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  [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:38 am Post subject: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff

The nose up attitude is likely to fill the breather outlet if tank full on T/O although a balanced turn shouldn't fill one side or the other. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ  

 

On 2015-05-15 21:25, Justin Kennedy wrote: [quote]   

  

HI Guys,  

  

I am a bit reluctant to stick my neck out but I have a possible reason and solution for your smelly climbs. 

When my Europa was about 2 years old, 9 years now, We had the same problem with fuel smell after take-off and came to a conclusion which has not been mentioned in the discussions on this subject. So here goes. 

We think it depends on which side you fuel tank vent is on.  In this example the vent  is in the usual place on the Starboard side top front corner of the tank. So as you climb out into a right hand circuit the right wing is going to be lower than the left for long periods.  The fuel  in the tank slurps to the right. The result is a pocket of air trapped on the upper left side of the tank. The size of the pocket of air is dependent on how full the tank is at the time.  As the plane climbs the pressure drops and the pocket of air expands. Assuming the fuel is covering the actual fuel vent on the right then there is nowhere for the fuel to go other than up the vent and pour over the back of the fuselage. I think that it is this that creates the smell of fuel that only lasts a short time. We experienced this phenomenon with ours and noticed there was no smell if the tanks were less than about 1/2 full. 

Also trying to reproduce the problem was easy. After take-off with nearly full tanks I flew a long gently curved climb to the right which promptly obliged with a strong fuel smell. As a result we put in an additional vent on the other side of the tank. 

There have been no fuel smells in the climb since. 

Those with this smell could try this and then do it again with 1/2  tanks. 

Also level up in the climb out every now and then to release the air to the vent on the right and see if it stops it. 

Obviously your vents may be different but you can apply the theory. 

There are numerous potential sites for a fuel leak but when it is only in the climb it has got to be climb related. I notice everyone is most specific about it happening in the climb. 

I  may be talking bunk but it is surely worth discussion J.  

Fly safe 

  

Justin Kennedy 

G-ZTED Europa Mono 912S Airmaster Prop 

East of Scotland Strut 

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



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