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Matt Dralle
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26321
Location: Livermore CA USA
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 Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:40 pm Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases |
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I kind of doubt it. I use the term "scratch" loosely. It looks more like the surface coating is flaking off. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the lens is discolored in a flaking pattern. So, really, while I accepted responsibility for the "scratch", I really think that it is a manufacturing defect. Very frustrating, considering the radio is essentially new but I bought it 5 years ago. Garmin is now claiming that part isn't even available internally or externally for sale except for new manufacture. In other words, it couldn't be replaced even it the unit were returned for repair. But, again, the story seems to change by the hour...
Matt
At 06:30 PM 6/17/2015 Wednesday, you wrote:
| Quote: | Matt, is it possible to buff out the scratches? Lots of car head lamp covers and aircraft covers can be restored.
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Matt Dralle <<mailto:dralle(at)matronics.com>dralle(at)matronics.com> wrote:
Before making my original post, I had contacted two different Avionics shops and received the exact same story, so I didn't base my findings on a single vendor. I have subsequently contacted Garmin directly and was told that the parts are in fact orderable by dealers. But, when those same avionics dealers call the Garmin parts department they are told they are not allowed to order those parts. So, something is definitely not quite lining up here. I guess I apologize to the community for venting my frustration with this process, but this really shouldn't be this difficult. I will follow up with more information on this debacle as it hopefully progresses.
Btw, the lens part number for the SL-30 is 308-3201-42 and the lens for the GTX-327 is 470-00034-00.
Matt
At 11:12 AM 6/17/2015 Wednesday, Matt Dralle wrote:
>In the rebuild of my RV-8 recently, I managed to get a scratch in the lens of both the Garmin SL-30 and the Garmin GTX-327. No biggie, I thought, I'll just order up a replacement and stick them in, much like I did on the King KX-125 on the RV-6.
>
>I called up Pacific Coast Avionics today to order the parts and was told the following: Garmin will not sell the lens. Yup, you hear that right. My only option is to return both units to Garmin for a "factory repair" and the MINIMUM charge will be $535 for EACH unit! That is $1070 to replace two $4 pieces of plastic! That is simply outrageous! Frankly, criminal behavior.
>
>I will NOT be buying ANY future Garmin products. I refuse to do business with a company that treats their customers this way. Unacceptable.
>
>-
>Matt Dralle
>
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Matt Dralle
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Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:57 pm Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases |
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Good Evening Marv,
Cost can be high for glass if you opt for the fancy data, but if all you want is attitude and heading, the stuff is cheaper than gyros and gimbals.
As Always, It All Depends!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/17/2015 8:20:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, handainc(at)madisoncounty.net writes:
[quote] I have been “collecting” what appears to be serviceable units for several years and have a couple of boxes of stuff, all that look good, including 4 or 5 gyros. Initially, glass may be lower cost, but the software fees and subscription costs quickly add up.
Marv
[quote] On Jun 17, 2015, at 4:33 PM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:
Good Evening Marvin (if I may use you first name).
I totally agree that steam gauges are more than adequate for keeping an airplane under control, but as of today, the glass stuff is CHEAPER!
It will be quite a shock if you try to find good serviceable gyroscopes, let alone brand new ones.
Low cost means using glass.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/17/2015 4:14:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, handainc(at)madisoncounty.net (handainc(at)madisoncounty.net) writes:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "H. Marvin Haught Jr. " <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net (handainc(at)madisoncounty.net)>
Good analysis - this is exactly why I am going with an iPad with
ForeFlight set into a panel mount, and likely staying with steam gauges,
as my instrument flying days are over. When I get to my "keeper"
project, I might chuck the steam gauges if there are programs affordable
programs available using an iPad as base for EFIS , but for now, steam
gauges and ForeFlight on a panel mount iPad.
M. Haught
On 6/17/2015 3:33 PM, fedico94(at)mchsi.com (fedico94(at)mchsi.com) wrote:
[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: fedico94(at)mchsi.com (fedico94(at)mchsi.com)
My eperience with the G3X system in my RV9A is consistent with policy of Garmin. bought GN430W, 6 months later they cam e out with GTN750. Software for maintiaing G3X for IFR is one thousand dollars per year. The GPS from Jeppensen is another $500/yr.
Had the G3X off out of spec on altimeter check at avionics shop for IFR recertification by +-20 feet in 1k to 5k altitude. The GSU73 (computer brain)had to be removed and sent back to Garmin for correction with flat rate repair of $500. Very competent avionics shop tried to make harness and use laptop to correct.
GOOD--solid state/glass avionics are more dependable and less repair problem than my vacuum instruments. Repair is simplified, once the business model progresses, there is no further need for avionic shops. Plug and play ala Dynon/Advanced along with local FBO removal and service at central location means any FBO becomes an avionics shop. Every 2 years remove just the computer send in for test and certification at same cost that avionics shop would be paid. MY equipment was seviced within 7 days. Local FBO only needs to do test for integrity of pitot and static plumbing with reinstall.
BAD--you are at their mercy for software. Software upgrade for G3X should probably be about 150 to 300 dollars per year compared to tablet versions.
They will stop supporting hardware at unspecified intervals requring purchase of new hardware. This improves their bottom line when they are so inclined.
Base price for servicing can go up without an independent shop to compete. Company gets the all the money and cuts out pesky middlemen (who require recurrent training and have varying degree of competency).
Right now I could do $20,000 in panel rebuild/upgrade but in 4 years from now I may not have a 3rd class medical or I may not be around and the technology changes so radically that what you buy today is obsolete/unsupported in a short space of time. Some companies in this area last only a few short years.
MGL is great but will they be around ? Dynon has good software prices but then you need an "activation" fee of around 300 to 500 dollars. In short they all have an angle but the cost will be the same. Look at the marketing angle of smart phones. Better yet look at Bede aviation using iPads for instrument panel. What you have in your cockpit today at $5k from Garmin (G3X) could be replaced with one $800 dollar tablet in a few short years, all the while the FAA piddles along with NextGen.
Robert Federhofer
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CBarber
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:58 pm Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases |
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Yes, Dynon charges a one time $500 for the moving map software. The free trial period is 30 hrs, iirc.
So far all upgrades to the Dynon Skyview have been free including map sectional type updates.
FWIW.
Chris
Houston
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 17, 2015, at 8:52 PM, A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com<mailto:argoldman(at)aol.com>> wrote:
Nice thing about Dynon skyview After purchase all future software is free. There is a one time 500$ fee for some mapping stuff. If you want it (I think there is a 90 day free trial.
Maps/charts/plates vfr/ifr kept current are about 100$ per year......quite a de
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 17, 2015, at 8:17 PM, "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net<mailto:handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>> wrote:
I have been collecting what appears to be serviceable units for several years and have a couple of boxes of stuff, all that look good, including 4 or 5 gyros. Initially, glass may be lower cost, but the software fees and subscription costs quickly add up.
Marv
On Jun 17, 2015, at 4:33 PM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com<mailto:BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:
Good Evening Marvin (if I may use you first name).
I totally agree that steam gauges are more than adequate for keeping an airplane under control, but as of today, the glass stuff is CHEAPER!
It will be quite a shock if you try to find good serviceable gyroscopes, let alone brand new ones.
Low cost means using glass.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/17/2015 4:14:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, handainc(at)madisoncounty.net<mailto:handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> writes:
Good analysis - this is exactly why I am going with an iPad with
ForeFlight set into a panel mount, and likely staying with steam gauges,
as my instrument flying days are over. When I get to my "keeper"
project, I might chuck the steam gauges if there are programs affordable
programs available using an iPad as base for EFIS , but for now, steam
gauges and ForeFlight on a panel mount iPad.
M. Haught
On 6/17/2015 3:33 PM, fedico94(at)mchsi.com<mailto:fedico94(at)mchsi.com> wrote:
[quote]
My eperience with the G3X system in my RV9A is consistent with policy of Garmin. bought GN430W, 6 months later they cam e out with GTN750. Software for maintiaing G3X for IFR is one thousand dollars per year. The GPS from Jeppensen is another $500/yr.
Had the G3X off out of spec on altimeter check at avionics shop for IFR recertification by +-20 feet in 1k to 5k altitude. The GSU73 (computer brain)had to be removed and sent back to Garmin for correction with flat rate repair of $500. Very competent avionics shop tried to make harness and use laptop to correct.
GOOD--solid state/glass avionics are more dependable and less repair problem than my vacuum instruments. Repair is simplified, once the business model progresses, there is no further need for avionic shops. Plug and play ala Dynon/Advanced along with local FBO removal and service at central location means any FBO becomes an avionics shop. Every 2 years remove just the computer send in for test and certification at same cost that avionics shop would be paid. MY equipment was seviced within 7 days. Local FBO only needs to do test for integrity of pitot and static plumbing with reinstall.
BAD--you are at their mercy for software. Software upgrade for G3X should probably be about 150 to 300 dollars per year compared to tablet versions
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Christopher Barber
Velocity SE/Rotary 13B
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:08 am Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases |
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It sounds exactly right to me, based on my personal experience, and stories I've heard from others for over a decade. They might offer a bit more of a 'deal' if you can find the right button (person) to push, but the opening line is always outrageous flat rate fees for anything.
I've even experienced it myself, with Garmin wanting around $150 to replace the $4 backup battery in my GPS III Pilot portable. When I cornered a Garmin rep about it at a major flyin, he offered to give me a 'deal' at $70 if I sent it to his attention after the flyin. And the portable isn't even a 'certified' device.
The vast majority of homebuilders (and even cert a/c owners) don't even know that there are buttons available to push, and pay the outrageous fees because they effectively have no other choice.
BTW, I'd like to thank Matt for keeping these lists up and running and avoiding the ugliness of censorship, which is rampant on the VAF forum. For those who don't follow it closely, Matt's recent thread on the Garmin service subject didn't last a day before it was deleted (can't have one of your advertisers called out in public, can you.....). I sometimes go for much longer than I should without donating to Matt, and incidents like that remind me why I should donate every year.
Charlie
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 2:12 PM, Stein Bruch <stein(at)steinair.com (stein(at)steinair.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com (stein(at)steinair.com)>
This doesn't sound right. Sounds to me like someone just didn't want to deal
with you (and it likely wasn't Garmin in this case). I don't know what or
how you handled yourself, but sometimes you'll get more with honey than with
vinegar - or perhaps the person you spoke with perhaps was slightly
mis-informed.
To be blunt, the lenses should be readily available (at least they were last
time we got some). I'm sorry they aren't a $4 piece of plexi (there is some
fancy schmancy coatings on them and such), but the GTX lens is around $26
and I think the SL lens around $65.
My recommendation would be to calm down a bit, sit back and take a breath
before indicting Garmin in their entirety based on a conversation with one
person.
Not defending anyone or indicting or flaming anyone, but your experience
just sounds like we don't have the "whole story".....might I humbly suggest
that before blasting this to every list you manage that you perhaps speak to
someone else first (or maybe even Garmin directly)?
Cheers,
Stein
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europaa070(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases |
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First I must point out that I do not have any of the Garmin avionics that
you are trying to repair, so my comments might not apply.
Having spent several years working for a manufacturer of polycarbonate
spectacle lenses I am familiar with the coatings applied to lenses. In the
case of polycarbonate, a rather soft plastic, there is an anti-scratch
coating to protect the softer poly. In order to minimize reflections there
is a vacuum deposited multi-layer thin film coating generally referred to as
an AR (anti-reflective) coating. This coating is very easily removed. Anyone
who has ever tried to remove scratches from a CD or DVD knows how hard the
anti-scratch coating is and how difficult it is to remove scratches.
Acrylic plastic, used for aircraft windscreens and windows, is much more
scratch resistant than poly and would not have an AR or anti-scratch
coating.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS
A070
Airframe complete
Working on aviaonics
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