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rossmickey(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:33 am Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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Bob,
I have my O-360 with a Sky Tech 149-12LS starter wire as per your Z-22 “Fix for “Run-on” in Starters with Permeant Magnet Motors” which uses a relay rather than a starter contactor. Am I missing something and also need a starter contactor with this set-up?
Ross Mickey
N9PT
RV-6A
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 21, 2015, at 10:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
[quote] | Quote: |
For example: I have the same contactors for my project, (one for starter that is not continuous, and one form Battery that IS continuous)) |
Okay, the contactor of choice for starter
duty looks more like this . . .
These devices have been common to the automotive
industry for decades and feature low area, high
pressure contacts much more suited to withstanding
starter inrush currents due to their higher closing
pressures and low mass to minimize bounce.
Location of choice is on the firewall where the
BAT terminal of hte contactor becomes the distribution
point for bringing battery+ wire to the bus.
Bob . . .
[b]
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:11 am Post subject: Re: Starter Contactors |
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Skytec's diagram
http://www.skytecair.com/images/P1/Exp%20LS%20Wiring_1100.jpg
shows a diode to protect the switch from arcing. So I added diodes to Z-22 to protect the relay and start switch contacts.
Joe
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rossmickey(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:17 am Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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Thanks, Joe. I know my current set-up has at least one diode. When I get
to the airport, I will check to see if there are two as shown on your
diagram. There must have been some discussion back 12+ years ago about
putting a diode in the relay wiring or I wouldn't have done it but it must
not have shown up in the Z-22 drawing.
Ross
--
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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:43 am Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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The inductive kick from the shift solenoid on the starter is pretty fierce.
Joe, do you know the part number they specify for the anti-kickback diode?
-Jeff
On Thursday, June 25, 2015 7:28 AM, Ross Home <rossmickey(at)comcast.net> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ross Home" <rossmickey(at)comcast.net (rossmickey(at)comcast.net)>
Thanks, Joe. I know my current set-up has at least one diode. When I get
to the airport, I will check to see if there are two as shown on your
diagram. There must have been some discussion back 12+ years ago about
putting a diode in the relay wiring or I wouldn't have done it but it must
not have shown up in the Z-22 drawing.
Ross
--
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Starter Contactors |
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| Quote: | | Joe, do you know the part number they specify for the anti-kickback diode? |
Skytec shows a 1N4002, but any mechanically robust diode rated 1 amp or more should work. The banded end connects to positive.
Joe
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:42 am Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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At 01:31 PM 6/24/2015, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob,
I have my O-360 with a Sky Tech 149-12LS starter wire as per your Z-22 “Fix for “Run-on” in Starters with Permeant Magnet Motors” which uses a relay rather than a starter contactor. Am I missing something and also need a starter contactor with this set-up? |
Z-22 is appropriate to your airplane . . .
There are driving considerations for several
configurations of starter control erroneously
mis-applied . . .
The external, automotive contactor was part of
the B&C lightweight starter STC for a couple
of reasons. First, target after-market aircraft
were already set up for external contactors . . .
starters being replaced were legacy Bendix-drive
pinion gears. We COULD have eliminated the
external contactor in favor of utilizing the
BUILT IN contactor operated in tandem with
the pinon gear extension solenoid. This would
have complicated the STC. Further, the built
in solenoid-contactor assembly was really hard
on starter switches due to the spectacular in-rush
currents.
http://tinyurl.com/opmr4ae
Hence, BOTH the OBAM and TC market offerings
from B&C featured the external contactor with
a built in suppression diode. The stock contactor
coil on the starter was jumpered to the battery
terminal.
At some later time, there was a rise in popularity
of PM motors on light weight starters. If wired
per the B&C philosophy, counter emf voltages
generated in the starter motor during spin-down
would keep the jumpered, built-in contactor
energize for seconds after the starter button
was released.
B&C has retained the wound field configuration
in favor of lower motor inrush currents and
better cranking performance. PM motor products
were not well suited to the B&C technique
so many system were modified to drive the built
in contactor-solenoid from the ship's starter
switch.
The quantum jump in starter-switch abuse by
modern contactor-solenoids prompted an abortive
air worthiness directive to add a diode to
the legacy Bendix/ACS-510 key-switch to forestall
contact erosion promulgated by the extra
ordinary contactor-solenoid characteristics.
The original AD put a diode across the switch
contacts but was later amended to put it across
the contactor coil thusly.
http://tinyurl.com/pjckjwv
There are several ways to live gracefully with
the modern built-on contactor-solenoid:
Use external contactor as illustrated in most
of the Z-figures . . . EXCEPT
if your starter has a permanent magnet motor,
then you'll want to drive the built-in
contactor-solenoid with . . . EITHER
Diode protected starter switch of your
choice . . . . OR
Install an isolation relay per Z-22. This can
be used to replace the external contactor on
a starter of any pedigree . . . PM or Wound-Field.
The 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically
robust and electrically qualified to deal with
coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter
contactor or contactor-solenoid combiations.
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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rossmickey(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:39 am Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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Thanks, Bob.
You stated:
“The 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically robust and electrically qualified to deal with
coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter contactor or contactor-solenoid combinations.”
Z-22 doesn’t show any diodes but I do know I have some installed on my relay.
Joe provided a Z-22 with diodes shown.
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg
Is this how the Z-22 in your book Version 12 should look if I am not using a diode protected starter push button or no?
Ross
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:40 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Starter Contactors
At 01:31 PM 6/24/2015, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob,
I have my O-360 with a Sky Tech 149-12LS starter wire as per your Z-22 “Fix for “Run-on†in Starters with Permeant Magnet Motors†which uses a relay rather than a starter contactor. Am I missing something and also need a starter contactor with this set-up? |
Z-22 is appropriate to your airplane . . .
There are driving considerations for several
configurations of starter control erroneously
mis-applied . . .
The external, automotive contactor was part of
the B&C lightweight starter STC for a couple
of reasons. First, target after-market aircraft
were already set up for external contactors . . .
starters being replaced were legacy Bendix-drive
pinion gears. We COULD have eliminated the
external contactor in favor of utilizing the
BUILT IN contactor operated in tandem with
the pinon gear extension solenoid. This would
have complicated the STC. Further, the built
in solenoid-contactor assembly was really hard
on starter switches due to the spectacular in-rush
currents.
http://tinyurl.com/opmr4ae
Hence, BOTH the OBAM and TC market offerings
from B&C featured the external contactor with
a built in suppression diode. The stock contactor
coil on the starter was jumpered to the battery
terminal.
At some later time, there was a rise in popularity
of PM motors on light weight starters. If wired
per the B&C philosophy, counter emf voltages
generated in the starter motor during spin-down
would keep the jumpered, built-in contactor
energize for seconds after the starter button
was released.
B&C has retained the wound field configuration
in favor of lower motor inrush currents and
better cranking performance. PM motor products
were not well suited to the B&C technique
so many system were modified to drive the built
in contactor-solenoid from the ship's starter
switch.
The quantum jump in starter-switch abuse by
modern contactor-solenoids prompted an abortive
air worthiness directive to add a diode to
the legacy Bendix/ACS-510 key-switch to forestall
contact erosion promulgated by the extra
ordinary contactor-solenoid characteristics.
The original AD put a diode across the switch
contacts but was later amended to put it across
the contactor coil thusly.
http://tinyurl.com/pjckjwv
There are several ways to live gracefully with
the modern built-on contactor-solenoid:
Use external contactor as illustrated in most
of the Z-figures . . . EXCEPT
if your starter has a permanent magnet motor,
then you'll want to drive the built-in
contactor-solenoid with . . . EITHER
Diode protected starter switch of your
choice . . . . OR
Install an isolation relay per Z-22. This can
be used to replace the external contactor on
a starter of any pedigree . . . PM or Wound-Field.
The 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically
robust and electrically qualified to deal with
coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter
contactor or contactor-solenoid combiations.
Bob . . . | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
01234567
[quote][b]
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to Skytec.
You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace standard aviation
mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 amps of current, or
roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an ignition switch that can
handle that load, or would you have to split off the starter to a
separate toggle that can handle the current?
On 6/25/2015 10:10 AM, user9253 wrote:
| Quote: |
> Joe, do you know the part number they specify for the anti-kickback diode?
Skytec shows a 1N4002, but any mechanically robust diode rated 1 amp or more should work. The banded end connects to positive.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444038#444038
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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There are farm and marine key switches rated at 25 amps for the start
circuit. I've got a couple of thousand cycles on a few of them with no
problems.
These were not on a skytec starter though.
Ken
On 25/06/2015 4:51 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
<kellym(at)aviating.com>
Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to
Skytec. You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace standard
aviation mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 amps of
current, or roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an ignition
switch that can handle that load, or would you have to split off the
starter to a separate toggle that can handle the current?
|
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:11 pm Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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At 03:51 PM 6/25/2015, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to Skytec. You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace standard aviation mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 amps of current, or roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an ignition switch that can handle that load, or would you have to split off the starter to a separate toggle that can handle the current? |
That 30A number is exceedingly transient.
Further, switches are 'rated' in rather
conventional sense that strives for tens
of thousands of operating cycles at the
specified load.
The starter engagement switch in an airplane
sees only hundreds of cycles per year and
most even fewer.
The AD against the legacy ACS510 was a response
to the extra ordinary wear for having been
tasked with controlling the modern solenoid-
contactor where a major improvement in service
life was achieved by simply adding the diode to
mitigate contact-opening stress as opposed
to contact closure stresses. This fix alone seems
to have achieve a satisfactory service life
when driving the solenoid-contactor.
There are some solid state options for relieving
stresses on the starter switch. A device like
the BTS50055 hi-side switch from Infineon can
be incorporated as a robust, solid state switch
to handle the solenoid-coil current thus dropping
switch current to mere milliamps.
http://tinyurl.com/q9q5h74
There is another option for adding the external
contactor on a PM starter and dealing with the
run-on problem.
[img]cid:.0[/img]
You can use the contactor's "I" terminal
to energize the solenoid-contactor yet
release it the same time that the starter
switch opens.
It seems that there are a lot more after market
opportunities to buffer the load presented
to and EXISTING or legacy start switch than
there is to replace it with something with
an extra-ordinary specification for robustness.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:17 pm Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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At 02:38 PM 6/25/2015, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks, Bob.
You stated:
“The 1N5400 series diodes are both mechanically robust and electrically qualified to deal with
coil collapse spikes from ANY of the starter contactor or contactor-solenoid combinations.”
Z-22 doesn’t show any diodes but I do know I have some installed on my relay.
Joe provided a Z-22 with diodes shown.
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z22_with_diodes_158.jpg |
| Quote: |
Is this how the Z-22 in your book Version 12 should look if I am not using a diode protected starter push button or no? |
It doesn't hurt. The contacts of the S702 relay
are quite suited to unprotected control of the
solenoid-contactor . . . and the S702 coil presents
a much reduced stress on the starter switch. But
adding the diodes is not a bad thing to do. I show
the diode in the drawing I just published . . . I'll add
them to Z-22 . . . along with the suggestion I just
published.
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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reaper
Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Starter Contactors |
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| nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: | At 03:51 PM 6/25/2015, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym>
Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to Skytec. You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace standard aviation mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 amps of current, or roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an ignition switch that can handle that load, or would you have to split off the starter to a separate toggle that can handle the current? |
That 30A number is exceedingly transient.
Further, switches are 'rated' in rather
conventional sense that strives for tens
of thousands of operating cycles at the
specified load.
The starter engagement switch in an airplane
sees only hundreds of cycles per year and
most even fewer.
The AD against the legacy ACS510 was a response
to the extra ordinary wear for having been
tasked with controlling the modern solenoid-
contactor where a major improvement in service
life was achieved by simply adding the diode to
mitigate contact-opening stress as opposed
to contact closure stresses. This fix alone seems
to have achieve a satisfactory service life
when driving the solenoid-contactor.
There are some solid state options for relieving
stresses on the starter switch. A device like
the BTS50055 hi-side switch from Infineon can
be incorporated as a robust, solid state switch
to handle the solenoid-coil current thus dropping
switch current to mere milliamps.
http://tinyurl.com/q9q5h74
There is another option for adding the external
contactor on a PM starter and dealing with the
run-on problem.
[img]cid:.0[/img]
You can use the contactor's "I" terminal
to energize the solenoid-contactor yet
release it the same time that the starter
switch opens.
It seems that there are a lot more after market
opportunities to buffer the load presented
to and EXISTING or legacy start switch than
there is to replace it with something with
an extra-ordinary specification for robustness.
Bob . . . |
If I wanted to add a starter engaged light connected to "I" while using that terminal to engage the starter solenoid would it work to place a good sized resistor in series with the lamp?
dave
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:26 am Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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| Quote: | | If I wanted to add a starter engaged light connected to "I" while using that terminal to engage the starter solenoid would it work to place a good sized resistor in series with the lamp? |
If your 'lamp' is an LED, it will REQUIRE
some series resistance to set the operating
current for the device. Some LED fixtures
offered as "12 volt" operation already have
a resistor installed.
If your proposed LED installation does not
have the necessary resistor, then you'll need
to add it. Putting it into the wire at or near
the "I" terminal. Here's one way to do it.
http://tinyurl.com/kyc6tq6
If there's already a resistor in your fixture,
ADDING some more ohms at the "I" terminal
would eliminate the need for a fuse while
not seriously affecting LED intensity in
the cockpit. A 100 ohm, 1-Watt resistor is
mechanically robust and easy to incorporate
into the wire.
Bob . . .
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yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:45 am Post subject: Starter Contactors |
|
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Many marine and aftermarket key switches have a substantial rating such
as 25 Amps on the package which has mislead me in the past. That rating
is often the total contact rating. ie 5 for starter, 10 for ignition,
and 10 for accessories.
Nevertheless in my case the starting contacts are still working fine
after several thousand starts wired directly to the solenoid and with
the recommended diode. My subaru starter solenoid has two windings so
that the pull in current is quite high (more than 30 amps) but then
after pull in, only the second winding flows current (about 9 amps) .
Ken
On 20/01/2017 11:21 PM, reaper wrote:
| Quote: |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 03:51 PM 6/25/2015, you wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Just curious what the advantage might be to wiring according to Skytec. You get rid of starter relay, but you have to replace standard aviation mag/starter switch with one that will carry 30 amps of current, or roughly 360 watts. Does anyone even make an ignition switch that can handle that load, or would you have to split off the starter to a separate toggle that can handle the current?
> That 30A number is exceedingly transient.
> Further, switches are 'rated' in rather
> conventional sense that strives for tens
> of thousands of operating cycles at the
> specified load.
>
> The starter engagement switch in an airplane
> sees only hundreds of cycles per year and
> most even fewer.
>
> The AD against the legacy ACS510 was a response
> to the extra ordinary wear for having been
> tasked with controlling the modern solenoid-
> contactor where a major improvement in service
> life was achieved by simply adding the diode to
> mitigate contact-opening stress as opposed
> to contact closure stresses. This fix alone seems
> to have achieve a satisfactory service life
> when driving the solenoid-contactor.
>
> There are some solid state options for relieving
> stresses on the starter switch. A device like
> the BTS50055 hi-side switch from Infineon can
> be incorporated as a robust, solid state switch
> to handle the solenoid-coil current thus dropping
> switch current to mere milliamps.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/q9q5h74
>
> There is another option for adding the external
> contactor on a PM starter and dealing with the
> run-on problem.
>
> [img]cid:.0[/img]
>
> You can use the contactor's "I" terminal
> to energize the solenoid-contactor yet
> release it the same time that the starter
> switch opens.
>
> It seems that there are a lot more after market
> opportunities to buffer the load presented
> to and EXISTING or legacy start switch than
> there is to replace it with something with
> an extra-ordinary specification for robustness.
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
If I wanted to add a starter engaged light connected to "I" while using that terminal to engage the starter solenoid would it work to place a good sized resistor in series with the lamp?
dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465297#465297
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reaper
Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Starter Contactors |
|
|
| nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: | | Quote: | | If I wanted to add a starter engaged light connected to "I" while using that terminal to engage the starter solenoid would it work to place a good sized resistor in series with the lamp? |
If your 'lamp' is an LED, it will REQUIRE
some series resistance to set the operating
current for the device. Some LED fixtures
offered as "12 volt" operation already have
a resistor installed.
If your proposed LED installation does not
have the necessary resistor, then you'll need
to add it. Putting it into the wire at or near
the "I" terminal. Here's one way to do it.
http://tinyurl.com/kyc6tq6
If there's already a resistor in your fixture,
ADDING some more ohms at the "I" terminal
would eliminate the need for a fuse while
not seriously affecting LED intensity in
the cockpit. A 100 ohm, 1-Watt resistor is
mechanically robust and easy to incorporate
into the wire.
Bob . . . |
Something along these lines?
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:02 am Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 11:24 AM, reaper <grimmer.de(at)gmail.com (grimmer.de(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "reaper" <grimmer.de(at)gmail.com (grimmer.de(at)gmail.com)>
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
>
> > If I wanted to add a starter engaged light connected to "I" while using that terminal to engage the starter solenoid would it work to place a good sized resistor in series with the lamp?
>
> If your 'lamp' is an LED, it will REQUIRE
> some series resistance to set the operating
> current for the device. Some LED fixtures
> offered as "12 volt" operation already have
> a resistor installed.
>
> If your proposed LED installation does not
> have the necessary resistor, then you'll need
> to add it. Putting it into the wire at or near
> the "I" terminal. Here's one way to do it.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kyc6tq6 (http://tinyurl.com/kyc6tq6)
>
> If there's already a resistor in your fixture,
> ADDING some more ohms at the "I" terminal
> would eliminate the need for a fuse while
> not seriously affecting LED intensity in
> the cockpit. A 100 ohm, 1-Watt resistor is
> mechanically robust and easy to incorporate
> into the wire.
>
>
> Bob . . .
Something along these lines?
Why the anl60? Starter current could blow it, and if the start contactor is next to the master contactor, no protection is needed. |
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reaper
Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Starter Contactors |
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Sorry, The wire from the battery is not depicted. The battery is 12 feet away.
The ANL 60 is from the Alternator B lead.
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:37 am Post subject: Starter Contactors |
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| Quote: |
Something along these lines?
Why the anl60? Starter current could blow it, and if the start contactor is next to the master contactor, no protection is needed.
|
The excerpt is truncated . . . the ANL60
is in the altenrator b-lead feeder. A 2AWG
(or 4AWG) wire to the battery contactor
from the same terminal is missing.
Bob . . .
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reaper
Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Starter Contactors |
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Is the excerpt the right way to detect voltage between "I" and the starter?
That is to say, three connects to "I",
Diode to ground
LED to ground
Starter motor solenoid
Will the disconnect surge still flow via the diode rather than the LED if the LED resistance is sufficient?
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