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Charging System

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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:53 am Post subject: Charging System

Hi All.

Had a job starting the engine away from base, Starter turned the engine over OK but there did not seem any spare electricity for electronic ignition system, jump leaded it from another battery and away it went.

The battery is a Odyssey 680 which give 680amps for 5 seconds dated 2008, installed 09 2009 so 5 or 6 years old.

However bought a new one, put a volt meter on the new one, 12.87v

tried it on the old one 12.95v ?????

Anyway the new one seemed to turn the engine over quicker and it started straight away .

I know a cars Alternator output is 13.8v,engine running, but on the aircraft using a volt meter on the battery, I was getting about 13.05v charging rate, switched on all the electrics and it dropped down to 12.6v



Do I have a problem.????



Many thanks 

Alan

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:43 am Post subject: Charging System

Hi! Alan,

I think you will find the old battery has a shorted out plate. 

If you can test it running you will probably find a charge of about 14.5

volts.

My original Oddessey  batteries were on about 10 years before I got scared

of expecting them to last longer but I had two wired in parallel to start

the Jabiru 6 cylinder. One had gone down and it soon pulled the other one

down.

I have just had a repeat event and the one I took off won't even start the

lawn mower on it's own immediately after a slow charge.  But the remaining

15 year old battery still fires up the lawn mower on it's own.

I's not the volts that starts the engine it is the ability to release a high

amperage over a short time.

Regards

Bob Harrison. G-PTAG

PS I got my replacement from Demon Tweeks.



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Charging System

Hi Bob.

My charge rate on the Europa with all avionic on is only 12.6v

Was wondering about the rectifier or Alternator as I have never seen my panel volt meter above about 12.9v



I got the battery from , batterymegastore, ordered  it Monday at 1545 arrived Tuesday morning at 1000 great service.

£83.50 including delivery.



Alan

bryannortje(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:45 pm Post subject: Charging System

Hi Alan



 	  Quote: 	
		  From what you have said on your tests, you mentioned that the voltage across the battery with engine running is 13.05 V. That is not right and it should be upwards of over 14V. Is your regulator wired in with a warning light or buzzer to let you know when the voltage is low? Your regulator could be faulty so check all its connections and ensure that it is well earthed too. Your battery is probably ok but with regulator issues, has slowly been getting to the point where you asking it to work harder and its age will probably make it give up the ghost easier than a fresh new one.


	


There were a couple second hand regulators up for sale at the Europa AGM last saturday so perhaps you could get one for a good price and swop it out.



Cheers

Bryan



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 16 Jul 2015, at 19:53, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi All.

 Had a job starting the engine away from base, Starter turned the engine over OK but there did not seem any spare electricity for electronic ignition system, jump leaded it from another battery and away it went.

 The battery is a Odyssey 680 which give 680amps for 5 seconds dated 2008, installed 09 2009 so 5 or 6 years old.

 However bought a new one, put a volt meter on the new one, 12.87v

 tried it on the old one 12.95v ?????

 Anyway the new one seemed to turn the engine over quicker and it started straight away .

 I know a cars Alternator output is 13.8v,engine running, but on the aircraft using a volt meter on the battery, I was getting about 13.05v charging rate, switched on all the electrics and it dropped down to 12.6v

 

 Do I have a problem.????

 

 Many thanks 

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444828#444828

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Charging System

Hello All.

Having received a private mail on how to check the Regulator of the 914 using the two brown wires connecting to terminal G.

With engine running states 15 to 20 VAC at idle, I am getting 13.5 v at 2000 rpm so below the 15.

And at high rpm should be between 30 to 40 VAC , at 4000 rpm I was getting 26v so again below the 30.



So with the above in mind, points to the Alternator rather than the Regulator, ????? 

You Comments Please.



PS, On New Battery just installed,  Aircrafts Panel voltmeter at cruise reads only 12.4 v never ever seen it at 13v



Regards.

Alan

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:17 pm Post subject: Charging System

Hi Alan,

Just a quick statement:



To me, the values you are getting might be typical to a working system that

is at or past maximum load. If the whole panel is lit up with all avionics

on, lights, etc. Try turning off many of your electrical loads to see if the

voltages come up. If they don't, then possibly it could be the generator. I

would make a guess that they don't fail often, so a few more tests would be

warranted (I could give a few hints as to what I'd do, when the time comes).

The wiring in it is all in series, so it would not have failed 'open'. That

doesn't mean it doesn't have a short in one of the windings, or that the

magnets have weakened, which could cause low readings in the AC output

voltage. 



Note: If the aircraft panel voltmeter is correctly connected, that charge

voltage is much too low, and will eventually discharge your battery. I would

not feel comfortable flying with such a condition. In the meantime, to be

good to your brand new battery, charge it up with a good automatic charger

(if you haven't already).



Hope this helps. Good luck.



Regards,

Greg  



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Charging System

Hi Greg.

This is becoming a big problem, I can see the panel voltmeter move slightly as I increase power, but you are right its not maintaining my battery.

With the volt meter across the battery at cruise power its only 12.8v.

Now we come to fixing it, sodding built in intricate mag/alternator on the back of the engine, 

I was expecting a bolt on Alternator replacement unit, insert the shaft and tighten up the 4 bolts , JOB DONE, same as the a tyre change on bloody main wheels, have to unlock and unbolt the disc to change a tyre,  

Took me longer to do the wire locking than it did to fit the new tyre.

WHY ??



Anybody repaired the Alternator on the 914.



Some confusion, in ref material .

Switch in plane is labelled  Alternator , but in fact its is called an internal  generator and its output is 18 amps and 13.5v. I am seeing about 13.01v all electrics off,

Also you can have an external Alternator output 40 amps and 14.5v so those who have posted 14v + must have Alternators fitted.



 

   

Regards .

Alan

Last edited by Alan Carter on Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

richard.holder(at)outlook
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:02 pm Post subject: Charging System

On 24/07/2015 22:18, Alan Carter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Greg. This is becoming a big problem, I can see the

 panel voltmeter move slightly as I increase power, but

 you are right its not maintaining my battery. With the

 volt meter across the battery at cruise power its only

 12.8v. Now we come to fixing it, sodding built in

 intricate mag/alternator on the back of the engine, I

 was expecting a bolt on Alternator replacement unit,

 insert the shaft and tighten up the 4 bolts , JOB DONE,

 same as the a tyre change on bloody main wheels, have

 to unlock and unbolt the disc to change a tyre, Took me

 longer to do the wire locking than it did to fit the

 new tyre. WHY ??



 Anybody repaired the Alternator on the 914.


	


i am going to offer my 10 cents worth



These problems are why you need to have an ammeter AND a

voltmeter to give sufficient information. Ammeters can

either show current in and out of the battery (with a -30

0 +30 type scale), or measure the current out of the

alternator (0 +30 scale). In and out of the battery is

more useful.



And i go further and say that digital meters only sample

maybe 5 times a second. You need analogue meters with

pointers. Without my analogue ammeter I would not have

known that my charging system was fluctuating from 2 to 10

amps on a 5 cycles per second basis.



I tried 4 new rectifier/regulators and they were all the

same. Apparently they had changed the design ! I put a

Schicke regulator on and all was well. I did try a used

but older R/R and it was fine as had been my original.



Electrics are really simple but you have to go back to

first principles and understand what is actually happening.



The stator on the flywheel is very reliable. The wiring

and R/R are not. I would do comprehensive checks on the

wiring and the R/R (and maybe the rest of your electrics)

befor eeven considering fiddling with the stator.



Is the body of your R/R earthed ?



Richard Holder

aka anrman

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:36 am Post subject: Charging System

Alan,



This does not need to be a big problem at all. There are some relatively 

simple checks you can run to establish whether the alternator is a fault 

or not.

If you have the use of a good quality multimeter, measure the resistance 

between the two YELLOW leads to the charging coils of the alternator, 

that can be found at the multi pin plug on the top of the engine.  You 

should get a reading of between 0.1 and 0.8 ohms (this is a very low 

value so you will need an accurate DVM/AVO/multimeter).



If the resistance is below this, the insulation on the coils could have 

begun to fail and the windings short to each other. If the value is 

infinity, then the coils have failed completely - both will require a 

new stator.



Check also each YELLOW wire to ground. The correct value should be 

infinity. If you get any reading, then the windings have shorted to 

ground (though this unlikely, as you are getting some charge at the moment).



If you would like to learn more, download the Rotax 912/914 "Heavy 

MaintenanceManual" from the following site (foc):



http://www.rotax-owner.com/en/support-topmenu/engine-manuals



Refer to Section 74



Read Chapter 3.7 (on page 16) for an explanation



Compare the results with the values found in chapter 3.12 (on page 22)



That should keep you amused for the weekend!



Nigel



On 24/07/2015 22:18, Alan Carter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Greg.

 This is becoming a big problem, I can see the panel voltmeter move slightly as I increase power, but you are right its not maintaining my battery.

 With the volt meter across the battery at cruise power its only 12.8v.

 Now we come to fixing it, sodding built in intricate mag/alternator on the back of the engine,

 I was expecting a bolt on Alternator replacement unit, insert the shaft and tighten up the 4 bolts , JOB DONE, same as the a tyre change on bloody main wheels, have to unlock and unbolt the disc to change a tyre,

 Took me longer to do the wire locking than it did to fit the new tyre.

 WHY ??



 Anybody repaired the Alternator on the 914.



 Regards .

 Alan





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445165#445165

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:27 am Post subject: Charging System

Alan,

I would tend to agree with Richard that the likelihood is that your problem

is not in the generator but in the wiring or Regulator . 

12.8V at cruise is better, and will probably keep the bird in the air, but

it is not quite adequate. If you could let us know your overall current

usage, that would help decide if the generator/regulator is close to its

power output limit.



Richard-or anrman, you tried 4 new Regulators, WOW! Why did they not work

for you, and was it related to the 5 Cycle/second current pulses? (I will

need to get a new one at some point). Interesting point about the analog

gauge..



Regards,

Greg

--

richard.holder(at)outlook
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:51 am Post subject: Charging System

On 25/07/2015 14:26, Greg Fuchs  wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Richard-or anrman, you tried 4 new Regulators, WOW! Why did they not work

 for you, and was it related to the 5 Cycle/second current pulses? (I will

 need to get a new one at some point). Interesting point about the analog

 gauge..


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Regards,

 Greg


	


I know I was amazed ! My first (Ducati) R/R died at 175 

hours. I bought one from the Rotax importers in the UK. 

When connected up to exactly the same wiring as the 

original one the (analogue) ammeter needle vibrated 

between 2 and 10 amps 5 times per second. This meant that 

the voltage was moving between 14v and someting else (16v 

?) on the same frequency, but the voltmeter needle is 

damped and so it didn't show up.



I sent it back and got another. Same result. Bought one 

from Lockwood in the US, same result, and sent it back, 

and the replacement did the same.



OK at this point I really thought it was me or the plane.



Then borrowed an older R/R from someone else. No 

vibration. Unfortunately it was only a loan ! What i 

decided was that at some point they changed the circuit 

and after that date the voltages were controlled 

differently. I did have an approx date for that cut off 

(the manufacture date is stamped on the casing) but i 

don't have it to hand. Sometime around 2005 I think.



As I say it may just be me, but my analogue needles showed 

me something that digital wouldn't have shown; and nor 

would a voltmeter (or an ammeter) alone.



So I bought a Schicke. Slightly lower max current but a 

whacking great heat sink. That has done 600 hours now with 

no problem or vibration whatsoever (I expect because I 

have a spare which I carry in the aircraft !)



Apparently there is a Deere Tractor R/R which is built 

like a br*ck-sh*thouse which also works and has spare 

capacity for ever and ever. I found that on Google somewhere.



Sorry about the rant. I was worse at the time; you have 

re-awakened my thinking on this !



HTH



Richard

 	  Quote: 	
		   i am going to offer my 10 cents worth



 These problems are why you need to have an ammeter AND a voltmeter to give

 sufficient information. Ammeters can either show current in and out of the

 battery (with a -30 0 +30 type scale), or measure the current out of the

 alternator (0 +30 scale). In and out of the battery is more useful.



 And i go further and say that digital meters only sample maybe 5 times a

 second. You need analogue meters with pointers. Without my analogue ammeter

 I would not have known that my charging system was fluctuating from 2 to 10

 amps on a 5 cycles per second basis.



 I tried 4 new rectifier/regulators and they were all the same. Apparently

 they had changed the design ! I put a Schicke regulator on and all was well.

 I did try a used but older R/R and it was fine as had been my original.



 Electrics are really simple but you have to go back to first principles and

 understand what is actually happening.



 The stator on the flywheel is very reliable. The wiring and R/R are not. I

 would do comprehensive checks on the wiring and the R/R (and maybe the rest

 of your electrics) befor eeven considering fiddling with the stator.



 Is the body of your R/R earthed ?



 Richard Holder

 aka anrman

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:26 pm Post subject: Charging System

Richard,



Wow, looks like you went through the regulation ringer. It may not feel like

it to you, since not enough time has passed  but it Looks like facts and

not rant to me (Wonderful, beautiful, can't get enough of them, facts!

-left-brain is jumping for joy here)

 

I wonder if the re-designed regulator was more sensitive to something in

your system. small capacitor/weak battery, etc.

OOPs, didn't mean to drag you back there, quick-change the topic! Uhhh...Boy

that weather sure is good! 



Thanks much for the info.

If you still have the R/R Deere tractor info, I would love more info on it.

Maybe offline? 

Greg A050



--

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:04 am Post subject: Charging System

Alan and All:



Good advise has been given by all.

I have had a number of Europa's that had problems with their charging.  Most 

of it self inflicted, as we prefer to hook our Control wire to a switch to 

be able to shut off our regulator.

It could be your stator is going south.  I doubt it, but it happened to me 

as my 914 is one of those originally with the defective stator.  The ohm 

meter checks of the stator will tell you that.  Get familiar with the Rotax 

install manual, and SBs.



As for the regulator.  You will kill the regulator quickly if the control 

wire is not reading battery voltage exactly.

If your regulator control wire reads 12 volts and your battery 12.5 v with 

the engine off, in operation, during charging, the regulator will be reading 

an under voltage (that 1/2 volt) and will attempt to increase the charge 

rate to read 13.8 volts.  This rapidly overheats the regulator and it will 

die.  The regulator recommended wiring is for the battery terminal (B+) the 

Regulator (R) and the Control (C) all to be hooked together.  The control of 

the alternator is to be through a switch breaker or as some of us do, a 30 

amp relay with fuse/CB in line to allow us to control our alternator on / 

off.



I to killed my first regulator by not noting the small voltage drop (running 

a #18 wire from the control through a connector/plug to my buss via a split 

master switch).  This small voltage drop kept my output below 13.8 and the 

poor Ducati was killing itself to charge at its designed voltage.  It didn't 

help my PC680 battery either.



Try hooking the regulator RBC wires together and check voltage.  It is a lot 

cheaper than a $1000 stator and the 4-6 hours to change it minimum.  It will 

keep your battery, and busses happy with the 13.8 volts.



Regards,

Bud Yerly

--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Charging System

Hi Bob.

Last time we posted was on fitting wheel bearings etc,

Well I have done the main wheel plus new tyres, It was well within my capabilities, however the nose wheel looks a bit more complicated, ??

My Electrics, just have the standard 18 amp generator on the rear of the engine, the two wires to the G terminal on the regulator,

ie what my generator is putting out, is 13.5v at idle say 1800 rpm and 26v at high rpm say 4000 rpm, so to me this seems enough volts to charge the battery, so the regulator looks more the problem,

I have never seen my panel voltmeter showing 13v even with all the avionics switched off, 

A new regulator in the UK is about £87

So maybe the way for me to go is just fit a new one, at 69 and looking at my finger, my time is more important than the money.

Regards

Alan.

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