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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 210
Location: GILROY, CA
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 Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: Brake broke |
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We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs.
I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat.
I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again.
Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions?
--Dave
[quote][b]
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rene(at)felker.com
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject: Brake broke |
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I plan on doing the matco upgrade when the time comes.
Rene'
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Saylor
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 2:20 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Brake broke
We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs.
I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat.
I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again.
Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions?
--Dave
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01234567
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cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:11 pm Post subject: Brake broke |
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I’ll offer that technique is more important than which brake company you go with. This is by no means a dig as a lot of people ride their brakes, but I find it’s really not necessary in the RV-10. The F-16 was notorious for getting hot brakes if you rode them at all, so in academics we would show a silly comparison but it worked. Two pots of water each had a frog. On one pot the fire was extreme but quick and the frog was left unscathed. On the other the same total energy was applied over time through a low heat but the frog eventually boiled. The point is, long use of the brakes, even with light pressure, will build up much more heat than if you let the plane roll out and then apply more pressure briefly to slow back down. Another point is landing where you want at the speed you want (stall horn just starting to beep) will really help the brakes. I realize that’s obvious but nonetheless often ignored. I’ve also seen a lot of people jam on the brakes to make a turn for no reason. Don’t hose the airplane landing behind you, but if the next turnoff isn’t that far and means the difference between heavy brakes and no brakes, then another few hundred feet of taxi is worth it. FWIW I’m on my second set of pads at 720 hours with a long way to go before they’ll need replacing.
Again, this is not an attack by any means but I just wanted to throw in my .02 to the crowd having seen a number of these related discussions. I wish I was there at OSH, have fun!
Marcus
On Jul 21, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Rene <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:
I plan on doing the matco upgrade when the time comes.
Rene'
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of David SaylorSent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 2:20 PMTo: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: Brake broke
We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs.
I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat.
I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again.
Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions?
--Dave
01234567
8
[quote][b]
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: Brake broke |
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As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do anything for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't get a puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home you could replace pads and maybe caliper.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com (saylor.dave(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs.
I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat.
I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again.
Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions?
--Dave
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 210
Location: GILROY, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:58 pm Post subject: Brake broke |
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Thanks folks.
Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper.
I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of like s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the taxiway) without any brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to the other side, and repeat as necessary. The brakes cool between steers.
If anyone can explain it better, please do.
Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and all seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says the brakes are undersized.
EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies.
Again thanks for the input.
--Dave
On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:
[quote]As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do anything for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't get a puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home you could replace pads and maybe caliper.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jesse(at)saintaviation.com');]jesse(at)saintaviation.com[/url]
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','saylor.dave(at)gmail.com');]saylor.dave(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs.
I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat.
I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again.
Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions?
--Dave
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:31 pm Post subject: Brake broke |
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I am not entirely convinced that there is anything lacking with the Clevelands. The RV-10 empty weight is virtually identical to my Mooney M20E. Approx 1645 lbs empty, 2575 gross. Uses 6:00X6 six ply tires. Vso 57 mph, Approach speed 80. Only real difference is the 10's lack of nose wheel steering.
My Mooney uses similar 6" Cleveland wheels and brakes designed in the early 60s, and later versions do have improvements.
I do think that using the high temp brake fluid and viton seals are the main items needed to deal with the heat build up from long cross wind taxis. Obviously with P factor the right brake will get more use than the left.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 5:55 PM, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com (saylor.dave(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Thanks folks.
Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says the brakes are undersized.
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: Brake broke |
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Doing it the way tail draggers might do it makes sense to me but my interpretation is a bit different.
Having moved from flying the Maule one day (actually 7 days/ week for a 2 months) to the '10 the next, I was all about rudder versus differential braking. For me that means constant rudder wagging. On grass it's stop to stop, on pavement it actually takes more concentration because it turns so easily with a xwind. But in both cases I try to keep it straight with minimal braking. Actual turns require braking.
On the other hand, on pavement it often just rolls to fast. I never do a constant application of the brakes but tend to let the speed build then slow it way down and start over. Slow-fast-slow-fast etc.
I got really long wear out of my brakes the first 3 years so by that measure it seems to work.
Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson
On 7/22/2015 8:55 PM, David Saylor wrote:
[quote]Thanks folks.
Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper.
I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of like s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the taxiway) without any brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to the other side, and repeat as necessary. The brakes cool between steers.
If anyone can explain it better, please do.
Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and all seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says the brakes are undersized.
EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies.
Again thanks for the input.
--Dave
On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do anything for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't get a puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home you could replace pads and maybe caliper.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'jesse(at)saintaviation.com\');]jesse(at)saintaviation.com[/url]
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'saylor.dave(at)gmail.com\');]saylor.dave(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs.
I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat.
I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again.
Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions?
--Dave
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Date: 07/19/15 [b]
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flyboy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:44 am Post subject: Brake broke |
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I don't have any real time in an RV-10, but I have taxied one briefly, and it taxies very similar to other castering nosewheel aircraft I've flown. After teaching a few hundred air force cadets to fly a DA-20, I can state that most people naturally do it wrong. It's very tempting to control the direction of the airplane exclusively with the brakes, but in most cases you should not need the brakes when taxiing in a straight line. The rudder has more authority than you think it does, but you need to be quick on your feet, and not hesitate to use full rudder. The best way to save your brakes is to make sure you're never touching the brakes to turn unless you already have the rudder to the stop in that direction. I find that keeping the plane straight requires frequent, large applications of rudder applied as soon as the aircraft heads the wrong direction, but can be done in most conditions without any use of the brakes. If you find that you need to drag the brakes in order to taxi in a straight line, I suspect that you're not using all the rudder available. Note that you'll also get more rudder authority if you're positioning the ailerons correctly for wind direction. Now, in a 20 knot xwind, you probably need brakes, but 10 knots should be no big deal. If you do need brakes, do not drag them. Light, continuous brake actuation creates a lot more heat than brief, moderate application. If you need to drag the brakes, don't. Hold full rudder in the direction you need, and tap the brakes moderately and briefly as necessary to point the plane back downwind, let it weathervane back (while still holding full rudder), then tap it again to overcorrect back toward center and repeat. Note that I have no experience about what's necessary on grass, but I wouldn't think it would be much different.
Hope this helps,
Berck
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote] Doing it the way tail draggers might do it makes sense to me but my interpretation is a bit different.
Having moved from flying the Maule one day (actually 7 days/ week for a 2 months) to the '10 the next, I was all about rudder versus differential braking. For me that means constant rudder wagging. On grass it's stop to stop, on pavement it actually takes more concentration because it turns so easily with a xwind. But in both cases I try to keep it straight with minimal braking. Actual turns require braking.
On the other hand, on pavement it often just rolls to fast. I never do a constant application of the brakes but tend to let the speed build then slow it way down and start over. Slow-fast-slow-fast etc.
I got really long wear out of my brakes the first 3 years so by that measure it seems to work.
Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson
On 7/22/2015 8:55 PM, David Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks folks.
Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper.
I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of like s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the taxiway) without any brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to the other side, and repeat as necessary. The brakes cool between steers.
If anyone can explain it better, please do.
Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and all seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says the brakes are undersized.
EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies.
Again thanks for the input.
--Dave
On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do anything for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't get a puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home you could replace pads and maybe caliper.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs.
I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat.
I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again.
Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions?
--Dave
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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 210
Location: GILROY, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:54 pm Post subject: Brake broke |
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Bill and Berck, thank you, your descriptions are what I'm hearing elsewhere too. It's funny how a specific situation can be so rare ( for me) and also so common. I'm approaching 1000 hours in the 10 but the long xwind taxi just never came up. Can't wait to try it again.
And Bill, you know you can't just leave it at that...
--Dave
On Thursday, July 23, 2015, Bill Watson <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com');]Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com[/url]> wrote:
[quote] Doing it the way tail draggers might do it makes sense to me but my interpretation is a bit different.
Having moved from flying the Maule one day (actually 7 days/ week for a 2 months) to the '10 the next, I was all about rudder versus differential braking. For me that means constant rudder wagging. On grass it's stop to stop, on pavement it actually takes more concentration because it turns so easily with a xwind. But in both cases I try to keep it straight with minimal braking. Actual turns require braking.
On the other hand, on pavement it often just rolls to fast. I never do a constant application of the brakes but tend to let the speed build then slow it way down and start over. Slow-fast-slow-fast etc.
I got really long wear out of my brakes the first 3 years so by that measure it seems to work.
Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson
On 7/22/2015 8:55 PM, David Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks folks.
Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper.
I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of like s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the taxiway) without any brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to the other side, and repeat as necessary. The brakes cool between steers.
If anyone can explain it better, please do.
Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and all seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says the brakes are undersized.
EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies.
Again thanks for the input.
--Dave
On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> wrote:
| Quote: | As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do anything for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't get a puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home you could replace pads and maybe caliper.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs.
I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat.
I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again.
Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions?
--Dave
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Date: 07/19/15
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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_________________
--Dave
KWVI |
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:58 pm Post subject: Brake broke |
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"The rudder has more authority than you think it does, but you need to be quick on your feet, and not hesitate to use full rudder. The best way to save your brakes is to make sure you're never touching the brakes to turn unless you already have the rudder to the stop in that direction."
Exactly. Heals on the floor, full rudder deflection, a little bit of toe pressure as needed. No more than 1,000 rpm on hard surface for taxi. Pump brakes to slow down or stop.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Jul 23, 2015, at 3:41 PM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy(at)gmail.com> wrote:
The rudder has more authority than you think it does, but you need to be quick on your feet, and not hesitate to use full rudder. The best way to save your brakes is to make sure you're never touching the brakes to turn unless you already have the rudder to the stop in that direction.
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