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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
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 Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:06 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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Do tell Bill...
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Jul 23, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
| Quote: | Doing it the way tail draggers might do it makes sense to me but my interpretation is a bit different.
Having moved from flying the Maule one day (actually 7 days/ week for a 2 months) to the '10 the next, I was all about rudder versus differential braking. For me that means constant rudder wagging. On grass it's stop to stop, on pavement it actually takes more concentration because it turns so easily with a xwind. But in both cases I try to keep it straight with minimal braking. Actual turns require braking.
On the other hand, on pavement it often just rolls to fast. I never do a constant application of the brakes but tend to let the speed build then slow it way down and start over. Slow-fast-slow-fast etc.
I got really long wear out of my brakes the first 3 years so by that measure it seems to work.
Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson
On 7/22/2015 8:55 PM, David Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks folks.
Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper.
I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of like s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the taxiway) without any brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to the other side, and repeat as necessary. The brakes cool between steers.
If anyone can explain it better, please do.
Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and all seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says the brakes are undersized.
EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies.
Again thanks for the input.
--Dave
On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do anything for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't get a puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home you could replace pads and maybe caliper.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'jesse(at)saintaviation.com\');]jesse(at)saintaviation.com[/url]
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'saylor.dave(at)gmail.com\');]saylor.dave(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs.
I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat.
I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again.
Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions?
--Dave
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Date: 07/19/15
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Westcott Press
1121 Isabel Street
Burbank, CA 91506
jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)
818-861-7300
[quote][b]
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:39 pm Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience.
Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to the cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop.
Flightaware Information
At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altitude excursion.
Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication.
This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication).
I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to never have to land there.
During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find.
Some thoughts:
- I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying.
- Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions)
- I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in.
- Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!!
That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report.
[quote]Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson
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n801bh(at)netzero.net
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:01 pm Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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Good job buddy.......
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
--------
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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:12 pm Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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This brings up a great point and an excellent technique. During flight testing or at any point, it is a good idea to establish and have known pitch and power settings for different configurations and phases of flight. For instance, if you know that 2400 RPM, 18" of manifold pressure and 2 degrees nose high will give you 100 kts with flaps up, and that a notch of flaps, 15" manifold pressure and 1 degree nose low will give you a 600 fpm descent rate at 100 kts, you have an target to shoot for and it can help to keep you alive during these kinds of emergencies (no airspeed indication) where you can not re-enter vmc flight.
The Air Force, the Navy, civilian King Air medevac companies, and even my current job flying 747s all taught this concept of flying. Know your pitch and power settings and watch how easy flying becomes.
Justin
On Jul 23, 2015, at 19:36, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote] Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience.
Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to the cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop.
Flightaware Information
At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altitude excursion.
Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication.
This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication).
I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to never have to land there.
During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find.
Some thoughts:
- I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying.
- Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions)
- I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in.
- Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!!
That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report.
| Quote: | Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson
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jack(at)bedfordlandings.c
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:17 pm Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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Very interesting. Do you by chance have ForeFlight on your i-Pad with a Stratus 2s? One reason I bought that setup was to give me a set of backup instruments in case everything else went south (the Stratus 2s has a built in AHRS). Of course it would be referencing the GPS and reading groundspeed, not airspeed, but it should be close.
I’ve always found the folks at KLYH Tower to be friendly and courteous. Glad they could help you.
Jack Phillips
#40610 – Fuselage and finally getting back to work on my RV-10 after a 3-year hiatus
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 7:36 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience.
Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to the cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop.
Flightaware Information
At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altitude excursion.
Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication.
This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication).
I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to never have to land there.
During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find.
Some thoughts:- I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying.
- Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions)
- I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in.
- Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!!
That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report.
| Quote: |
Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson |
http://forums.matronics.com[/url] - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c=[/b] [/quote]
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flyboy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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On 07/23/2015 05:36 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
| Quote: | During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my
GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving
erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of
the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is
likely water. I'll let you all know what I find.
|
First, kudos on analyzing the situation, taking appropriate action and
getting the aircraft back on the ground in one piece. An incorrect
airspeed indication in IMC has killed lots of folks. (Air France
407...) Excellent job not becoming the most recent; I hope if I ever
find myself in the same situation I perform as well as you did. Now for
some questions...
I assume they also share a static line? I'm a little confused about why
the autopilot would use airspeed to hold altitude? I, admittedly, know
nothing about how autopilots work, but it seems like if I were
programming an autopilot I'd have it track a pressure a altitude to hold
an altitude.
I have flown a plane with a blocked static line... (Instrument
instructor stuck tape over the single static port without telling me.)
It was a good experience. First thing I noticed was not the sluggish
altimeter on climbout, but rather the decreasing airspeed indication
while maintaining a pitch attitude and power setting in a 172 that
should have resulted in a climb. I eventually deduced pitot/static
system failure, switched to alternate static source, and there was no
change. The failure of the alternate static source to fix the problem
was never adequately explained to me, and surprised the hell out of my
instructor.
After I leveled off, the static system leaked to the right altitude and
all appeared normal until I tried to descend, at which point the
airspeed indicator quickly read about 100 knots fast. I landed by
taking off my foggles and looking outside the airplane using pitch/power
and erring on the side of landing fast on a long runway. Had it been
IMC, I don't know how well it would have gone.
Anyway, I mention all this to say... are you sure it isn't a static line
with partial blockage?
Berck
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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 210
Location: GILROY, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:33 pm Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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Bill, I'm happy for your happy ending. Good job flying the airplane.  I've seen one RV with a soggy pitot. It behaved as you described.
Always looKing forward to more of your sigs,
--Dave
On Thursday, July 23, 2015, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote] Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience.
Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to the cells.  In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop.
Flightaware Information
At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altitude excursion.
Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication.
This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication).
I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to never have to land there.
During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find.
Some thoughts:
- I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying.
- Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions)
- I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in.
- Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!!
That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report.
| Quote: | Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:49 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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Good questions here.
First, my backup ASI (small round gauge UMA unit in MPH vs Knots) does
not share the static line. I simply left it open to cabin air and did
it on purpose. I still have the air valve I was going to install to
enable switching it between static system and cabin air. Thought about
it and just seemed like adding complexity so I left the valve on the
shelf and left the static port unattached. If the static line ices up,
no need to break the glass or anything because the UMA is already on
cabin air. So, the only thing my GRT AHRS and backup ASI share is the
pitot line. Sounds like water...
Re the AP, I'm going back to read my Trutrak manual to once again try to
grok it's workings but what I saw momentarily was an "AS" appear on the
AP screen which I think means it saw too low airspeed, 'thought' the
plane was stalling and therefore commanded a pitch down. In any case
this is the kind of incident that will make me a bit more knowledgeable
about my AP's operation.
I also have a Trutrak ADI which also flashed an "AS". I wasn't really
paying attention to it but recall that it indicated the same thing
momentarily on a recent flight. Perhaps a first responder of sorts.
On 7/23/2015 10:51 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote:
| Quote: |
On 07/23/2015 05:36 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
> During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my
> GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving
> erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of
> the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is
> likely water. I'll let you all know what I find.
I assume they also share a static line? I'm a little confused about why
the autopilot would use airspeed to hold altitude? I, admittedly, know
nothing about how autopilots work, but it seems like if I were
programming an autopilot I'd have it track a pressure a altitude to hold
an altitude.
|
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:46 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if they do any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS (and call / flag any significant deviation of the two).
Jim C
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 9:14 PM, Jack Philips <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com (jack(at)bedfordlandings.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Very interesting. Do you by chance have ForeFlight on your i-Pad with a Stratus 2s? One reason I bought that setup was to give me a set of backup instruments in case everything else went south (the Stratus 2s has a built in AHRS). Of course it would be referencing the GPS and reading groundspeed, not airspeed, but it should be close.
Â
I’ve always found the folks at KLYH Tower to be friendly and courteous. Glad they could help you.
Â
Jack Phillips
#40610 – Fuselage and finally getting back to work on my RV-10 after a 3-year hiatus
Â
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 7:36 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
Â
Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience.
Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to the cells.  In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop.
Flightaware Information
At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altitude excursion.
Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication.
This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication).
I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to never have to land there.
During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find.
Some thoughts:- I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying.
- Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions)
- I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in.
- Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!!
That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report.
| Quote: |
Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson |
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:56 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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On 7/23/2015 8:09 PM, Justin Jones wrote:
| Quote: | This brings up a great point and an excellent technique. During flight testing or at any point, it is a good idea to establish and have known pitch and power settings for different configurations and phases of flight. For instance, if you know that 2400 RPM, 18" of manifold pressure and 2 degrees nose high will give you 100 kts with flaps up, and that a notch of flaps, 15" manifold pressure and 1 degree nose low will give you a 600 fpm descent rate at 100 kts, you have an target to shoot for and it can help to keep you alive during these kinds of emergencies (no airspeed indication) where you can not re-enter vmc flight.Â
The Air Force, the Navy, civilian King Air medevac companies, and even my current job flying 747s all taught this concept of flying. Know your pitch and power settings and watch how easy flying becomes.Â
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Absolutely true! I had all this worked out and memorized on my old Maule, though it is a much simpler set of things to remember (RPM, pitch, don't worry about flaps until visual or on the ground).
Despite repeated efforts to establish such a set of numbers for my '10 in various flight configurations, write them down for reference during flight, memorize them, and use them for instrument approach work....shhhhh.... I don't know them or use them, sacré bleu!! (Of course I have some standard settings for climb and cruise at various altitudes memorized but that's easy)
This information is invaluable in a round gauge panel. Lacking a view outside it greatly simplifies keeping things upright and on track. With a syn-vision EFIS equiped with a flight director, flight path marker, RNAV approaches and all the usual artificial horizon, lubber lines, Nav and GPS indicators, I just haven't memorized the RPM/MP/flap/pitch combinations needed. I do have a set of per cent power settings memorized (an amalgam of RPM & MP) that will give me level flight and glide slope flight at my standard airspeeds. If I need to slow it all down for a non-precision approach into a smallish field I add about 10% power for flaps on the final segment. Otherwise the gear is always down, my AP is usually working and once on a precision approach segment all I have to do is aim the FPM at the next lollipop and keep the engine loud (btw, the Flight Director works as well as the FPM, and both together is better than VMC). If for ANY reason my stall warning buzzer goes off - pitch down and power up and figure out what the freak happened. That's never happened except in the flare.
Of course this makes and keeps me an amateur because pros train more rigorously and fly more challenging aircraft.
Postscript:
Had an interesting conversation with a pro while debriefing myself in the KLYH lounge. He was flying a turbo Cirrus for a group of owners/business people who were casually trying to learn to fly while flying around doing real estate deals or something. We started feeling each other out.  He said people have told him the '10 resembles a Cirrus, I said the Cirrus is a very capable plane. He agreed that it better be at $800k though it lacked a second fan and turbines but it did have a BRS. I agreed and boasted of my <$<200k non-turbo, non-BRS Cirrus-like homebuilt, it's sweet!
I asked him if he would use the BRS. He said yes and I replied I'm not sure I would. We both knew that stats indicated that using it and using it promptly when it can be effective will save lives, so eventually we both agreed that we would use it.
Then I started to spin my very recent experience into a Cirrus version of it where the AP is engaged and one is droning along in some bumpy soup. Suddenly it pitches down along with some warning indications. The pilot finds he is approaching an unusual attitude with the AP taking him there. With a bit of adrenaline surging, he first fights the AP, then disengages, then fights the trim as the unusual attitude training hopefully kicks in. Since he has remained current for the past few years, he hasn't had an IPC recently and recurrent training has not been done. So he's a little rusty on the recovery and finds himself a bit confused and remains in something other than straight and level flight; do you pull the BRS or continue to recover? Oh, by the way he was at 7k over the 4-5k ridges of the Appalachians so there's that. And by the way, something like that just happened to me... and that's why the fire truck was out.
Both of us would have a hard time pulling it. He because he flies a lot of turbine equipment and gets regular recurrent training with lots of failure simulations and unusual attitude practice. Me because I just 'know' I could recover. I believe the Cirrus people train you to pull it in that circumstance. Interesting on many fronts.
Bill "welcoming the excuse to up my game" Watson
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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:06 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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A.C. 90-89B section 4-8.B addresses how to use the gps to validate airspeed readings.
On Jul 24, 2015, at 08:43, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if they do any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS (and call / flag any significant deviation of the two).
Jim C
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 9:14 PM, Jack Philips <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com (jack(at)bedfordlandings.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Very interesting. Do you by chance have ForeFlight on your i-Pad with a Stratus 2s? One reason I bought that setup was to give me a set of backup instruments in case everything else went south (the Stratus 2s has a built in AHRS). Of course it would be referencing the GPS and reading groundspeed, not airspeed, but it should be close.
I’ve always found the folks at KLYH Tower to be friendly and courteous. Glad they could help you.
Jack Phillips
#40610 – Fuselage and finally getting back to work on my RV-10 after a 3-year hiatus
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 7:36 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Declared Emergency
Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience.
Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to the cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop.
Flightaware Information
At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altitude excursion.
Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication.
This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication).
I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to never have to land there.
During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find.
Some thoughts:- I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying.
- Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions)
- I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in.
- Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!!
That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report.
| Quote: |
Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson |
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:08 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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On 7/23/2015 9:14 PM, Jack Philips wrote:
| Quote: | <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Very interesting. Do you by chance have ForeFlight on your i-Pad with a Stratus 2s? One reason I bought that setup was to give me a set of backup instruments in case everything else went south (the Stratus 2s has a built in AHRS). Of course it would be referencing the GPS and reading groundspeed, not airspeed, but it should be close.
I’ve always found the folks at KLYH Tower to be friendly and courteous. Glad they could help you.
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I have Foreflight but not Stratus. However my G430w displays GPS groundspeed and I did use it for a reference though of course the wind is included and it is TAS rather than IAS which could be an issue if up high.
Next time beore landing I'll fashion a small square to cover up my erroneous IAS number on the EFIS if this ever happens again. That can be confusing. The airspeed tape is not confusing - very easy to disregard.
I use Foreflight all the time and have it mounted on a center console for easy use but I don't try to use it as part of my backup plan. I've tried to keep it all on the panel with 3 EFIS screens - same model and manufacturer - dual AHRS and a 2 bus electrical system with 2 batteries and 2 alternators. They run independently so if anything fails, the other side is still up. The faulty side can be shut down and all components switched to run on the remaining system until fuel exhaustion. Then I have a round gauge panel with a TT ADI with independent backup battery.
Definite overkill but robust and simple to use.
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:12 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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On 7/24/2015 8:43 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if they do
any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS (and call / flag
any significant deviation of the two).
That would be interesting. The AP flagged with an "AS" and seemed to go
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into stall prevention mode, the ADI flagged with an "AS" and killed the
GPS azimuth display, the EFIS just gave me erroneous airspeeds and it
could do better than that. Yes
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:35 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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Some classes for high performance aircraft teach using rpm/100 + MP gives a ballpark power setting. Say 49=75%, 48=70, 47=65, etc. or whatever it is for the given airframe. This is very easy to remember, and it doesn't matter more than a percent or two if you choose 2600 and 22" or 2300 and 25". I generally leave rpm alone for approach phase because my Mooney has a restricted range from 2100-2350 on the engine/prop combination, and 2500 with appropriate MP is easy to manage, as well as enough rpm if you happen to need to go around that you can firewall throttle without any concerns of hurting anything. The last 20 hp or so available with 2700 just isn't that critical in 99.94% of go arounds. It also means that for approach I am only looking at MP for power, and can remember that 15-18" will get me to where I fine tune to go up or down or hold level. Because flaps have low max speed, in fact same speed as RV-10, I don't use them for instrument approaches until runway is in sight and landing assured.
Whatever you are using for backup instrumentation needs to be easy to scan, and located such that you can easily use as a tiebreaker between dual EFIS.
I chose a Dynon D1 for that purpose, but there are many other ways to approach it. Having same brand as my EFIS is good for having same display format. However, because my backup has its own battery and GPS and software, it is not likely to suffer a common failure with the EFIS. It isn't connected to pitot/static, giving you only GPS ground speed, ground track and GPS altitude, but that should be enough to keep the dirty side down until you can go visual.
Standardizing what you do for 95% of your approaches and landings allows minimum brain effort when something fails...just keep the rest of settings where they normally are. Obviously you adjust for the unusual short field/soft field, etc.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
On 7/24/2015 8:43 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if they do any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS (and call / flag any significant deviation of the two).
|
That would be interesting. The AP flagged with an "AS" and seemed to go into stall prevention mode, the ADI flagged with an "AS" and killed the GPS azimuth display, the EFIS just gave me erroneous airspeeds and it could do better than that. Yes
Â
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Declared Emergency |
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This discussion points out that it is important to understand the failure modes or programmed behavior of equipment.
For example, the TT and Trio autopilots both have stall protection built into their software, and will dump the nose down if IAS drops below some pre-set level.
The TruTrak ADI is of course not a real AI, long-term the vertical response is set by the VSI. So if your actual airspeed is slowly decreasing, and you are slowly raising the nose in response, the ADI will show nose-level, not nose high which in fact is what is happening. That is why the software displays the warning if it detects low ASI. (I am not sure if the 2 1/4" display shows that warning??).
Your GRT display, if operating properly, should continue to give good attitude information, even with a failing ASI.
OTOH, the Dynon EFISs use the ASI as part of their attitude solution. Latest software attempts to discover ASI failures, and revert to GPS speed data, but there has been at least one report of an ASI partial failure bad enough to cause an erroneous AI display, but not bad enough to trigger the change over to GPS data. I believe (but am not certain) that the TC and VSI data continue to function properly.
So these EFIS units can be flown with an ASI failure, but the pilot has to know what to expect to work, and what not. And it is hard to ignore the ASI when the airspeed shows very low. (and in a Dynon, ignore the AI and just use the TC bars and VSI)
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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 210
Location: GILROY, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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My CFII insisted that I test and make a card for various power settings and conditions. I used it "loose leaf" when I was training. It was so handy I incorporated it into my checklist. See attached photo. "Flaps1" means unreflexed, 0 degrees, etc. YMMV. --DaveÂ
On Friday, July 24, 2015, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Good questions here.
First, my backup ASI (small round gauge UMA unit in MPH vs Knots) does not share the static line. I simply left it open to cabin air and did it on purpose. I still have the air valve I was going to install to enable switching it between static system and cabin air. Thought about it and just seemed like adding complexity so I left the valve on the shelf and left the static port unattached. If the static line ices up, no need to break the glass or anything because the UMA is already on cabin air. So, the only thing my GRT AHRS and backup ASI share is the pitot line. Sounds like water...
Re the AP, I'm going back to read my Trutrak manual to once again try to grok it's workings but what I saw momentarily was an "AS" appear on the AP screen which I think means it saw too low airspeed, 'thought' the plane was stalling and therefore commanded a pitch down. In any case this is the kind of incident that will make me a bit more knowledgeable about my AP's operation.
I also have a Trutrak ADI which also flashed an "AS". I wasn't really paying attention to it but recall that it indicated the same thing momentarily on a recent flight. Perhaps a first responder of sorts.
On 7/23/2015 10:51 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com>
On 07/23/2015 05:36 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
| Quote: | During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my
GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving
erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of
the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is
likely water. I'll let you all know what I find.
|
I assume they also share a static line? I'm a little confused about why
the autopilot would use airspeed to hold altitude? I, admittedly, know
nothing about how autopilots work, but it seems like if I were
programming an autopilot I'd have it track a pressure a altitude to hold
an altitude.
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:49 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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I use percent power exclusively for approach work. I have it setup so it's always displayed on one of my GRT displays. I like the shortcut method of calculating percent power.
Once LOP, I stay there during descent until short final. If the air is smooth I'll keep it WOT, max LOP and bring the RPMs down below 2200 during descent. If bumpy I'll keep the MP at 24" at max LOP to keep me below redline during steeper descents. I'm generally operating at larger busy airports and I find keeping speeds up helps with the mix. Flaps at reflex until final. At intercept I slow it by reducing percent power. On short final with runway in sight I slow it down to flap speed and start the flaps down.
In normal ops I pay little attention to airspeed unless asked. Instrument practice I use a slower set of speeds. So I don't train as I fly....
My backup instrumentation is not a regular part of my scan. I have a non-sensitive altimeter, ASI in mph vs knots and an ADI. I check them periodically for function each time a get a new altimeter setting but that's it. I'm relying on my (3) identical EFIS units, independent but linked, along with the dual AHRS to flag problems and cross check. If my attitude agrees with airspeed/power - good. GPS azimuth agrees with bank - good. My G430w is a regular part of my scan - always comparing GPS TAS/GS with GRT TAS and wind.
This particular failure caused my GRT airspeed and backup airspeed to be incorrect. I saw the ADI flag with "AS" but didn't react. I saw the TT AP flag with "AS" when I engaged it. The sudden dive told me something was wrong and the "AS" told me why but at first I didn't quite believe it. I didn't notice the G430w GPS speed and GRT speed discrepancy but I'm pretty sure the problem occurred in a very short time frame so...
The only thing I'm not completely happy about is the ADI - I wish I had an electric AI instead. I guess another EFIS head is cheaper but if I got one, it would be another GRT.... but I have 3 already.Â
What I'm most happy about is dual bus, dual batt and dual alt. I have a high level of confidence that electrons will flow no matter what. In an all electric panel that's nice in my book.
On 7/24/2015 11:32 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
[quote] Some classes for high performance aircraft teach using rpm/100 + MP gives a ballpark power setting. Say 49=75%, 48=70, 47=65, etc. or whatever it is for the given airframe. This is very easy to remember, and it doesn't matter more than a percent or two if you choose 2600 and 22" or 2300 and 25". I generally leave rpm alone for approach phase because my Mooney has a restricted range from 2100-2350 on the engine/prop combination, and 2500 with appropriate MP is easy to manage, as well as enough rpm if you happen to need to go around that you can firewall throttle without any concerns of hurting anything. The last 20 hp or so available with 2700 just isn't that critical in 99.94% of go arounds. It also means that for approach I am only looking at MP for power, and can remember that 15-18" will get me to where I fine tune to go up or down or hold level. Because flaps have low max speed, in fact same speed as RV-10, I don't use them for instrument approaches until runway is in sight and landing assured.
Whatever you are using for backup instrumentation needs to be easy to scan, and located such that you can easily use as a tiebreaker between dual EFIS.
I chose a Dynon D1 for that purpose, but there are many other ways to approach it. Having same brand as my EFIS is good for having same display format. However, because my backup has its own battery and GPS and software, it is not likely to suffer a common failure with the EFIS. It isn't connected to pitot/static, giving you only GPS ground speed, ground track and GPS altitude, but that should be enough to keep the dirty side down until you can go visual.
Standardizing what you do for 95% of your approaches and landings allows minimum brain effort when something fails...just keep the rest of settings where they normally are. Obviously you adjust for the unusual short field/soft field, etc.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
On 7/24/2015 8:43 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if they do any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS (and call / flag any significant deviation of the two).
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That would be interesting. The AP flagged with an "AS" and seemed to go into stall prevention mode, the ADI flagged with an "AS" and killed the GPS azimuth display, the EFIS just gave me erroneous airspeeds and it could do better than that. Yes
Â
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Date: 07/24/15 [b]
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:51 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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Yes, the GRTs were fine without airspeed. A post it scrap fixed the
digital airspeed indication.
As mentioned, I'm not happy about the ADI though it does what it says
the way it says it. an AI would be better.
On 7/24/2015 3:08 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
| Quote: |
This discussion points out that many pilots do not fully understand the failure modes or programmed behavior of their equipment.
For example, the TT and Trio autopilots both have stall protection built into their software, and will dump the nose down if IAS drops below some pre-set level.
The TruTrak ADI is of course not a real AI, long-term the vertical response is set by the VSI. So if your actual airspeed is slowly decreasing, and you are slowly raising the nose in response, the ADI will show nose-level, not nose high which in fact is what is happening. That is why the software displays the warning if it detects low ASI. (I am not sure if the 2 1/4" display shows that warning??).
Your GRT display, if operating properly, should continue to give good attitude information, even with a failing ASI.
OTOH, the Dynon EFISs use the ASI as part of their attitude solution. Latest software attempts to discover ASI failures, and revert to GPS speed data, but there has been at least one report of an ASI partial failure bad enough to cause an erroneous AI display, but not bad enough to trigger the change over to GPS data. I believe (but am not certain) that the TC and VSI data continue to function properly.
So these EFIS units can be flown with an ASI failure, but the pilot has to know what to expect to work, and what not. And it is hard to ignore the ASI when the airspeed shows very low. (and in a Dynon, ignore the AI and just use the TC bars and VSI)
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:54 am Post subject: Declared Emergency |
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I made one up too but never stuck with it. I'm going to play with yours
for practice flights. Will probably convert to percent power and see
how it works. Thanks.
Fact is, in normal ops, I do one thing and am quite confident with it.
Practicing I do another. Not optimal, potentially a problem, need to
ponder further.
On 7/24/2015 7:04 PM, David Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | My CFII insisted that I test and make a card for various power
settings and conditions. I used it "loose leaf" when I was training.
It was so handy I incorporated it into my checklist. See attached
photo. "Flaps1" means unreflexed, 0 degrees, etc. YMMV.
--Dave
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