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nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
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 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:26 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Jill/All,
Recent threads on the subject of mag problems and total cuts in flights etc. suggest changing the mag coil cures the problem.
I’ve recently changed one on my M14P Yak52, only to be presented with the same problem again on the replaced coil. (Everything else has been checked out).
Discussions with various people seem to point to it being an ”age” breakdown problem with the coils rather than a “amount of use” problem.
So, the question is, does anyone have a supply of KNOWN GOOD coils that can be used as a replacement?
If anyone DOES, can they let me know price including shipping to the UK? Or, and alternative source of supply (Termikas tell me “not available” and “unable to overhaul”).
Thanks in advance everyone…
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor/Examiner and Display Pilot
_________________________________________________
email: nigel(at)yakdisplay.com (nigel(at)yakdisplay.com)
mobile: (+44) 7809 116676
web: http://yakdisplay.com
[img]cid:image001.png(at)01D0C866.E7B7B4A0[/img]
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cerveirapinto(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:53 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Maybe you want to try Aerometal Kft in Budapest.They have changed one coil on my M-14
Regards
2015-07-27 12:22 GMT+01:00 Nigel Willson <nigel(at)yakdisplay.com (nigel(at)yakdisplay.com)>:
| Quote: |
Jill/All,
Recent threads on the subject of mag problems and total cuts in flights etc. suggest changing the mag coil cures the problem.
I’ve recently changed one on my M14P Yak52, only to be presented with the same problem again on the replaced coil. (Everything else has been checked out).
Discussions with various people seem to point to it being an ”age” breakdown problem with the coils rather than a “amount of use” problem.
So, the question is, does anyone have a supply of KNOWN GOOD coils that can be used as a replacement?
If anyone DOES, can they let me know price including shipping to the UK? Or, and alternative source of supply (Termikas tell me “not available” and “unable to overhaul”).
Thanks in advance everyone…
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor/Examiner and Display Pilot
_________________________________________________
email: nigel(at)yakdisplay.com (nigel(at)yakdisplay.com)
mobile: [url=tel:%28%2B44%29%207809%20116676](+44) 7809 116676[/url]
web: http://yakdisplay.com
[img]cid:image001.png(at)01D0C866.E7B7B4A0[/img]
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Pedro Cerveira Pinto
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:14 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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You say that the problem continued with a "new" coil – I suspect you have anticipated the problem yourself in that I suspect the replacement coil was also not working well.
After almost 30 years with these engines, I can say that almost any high-tension ignition problem does come down to magneto coils or, on occasions, the high-tension wiring.
Coils are a significant problem. M 14 P Inc are making new ones, as we in Hungary. We know that ours are perfect, but our level of production is such that we need to reserve most of them for our engine overhaul customers, but can supply some to others if they want.
If anyone is interested, please come back to me off list.
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Willson
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 4:52 PM
To: info(at)m-14p.com; yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52)
Jill/All,
Recent threads on the subject of mag problems and total cuts in flights etc. suggest changing the mag coil cures the problem.
I’ve recently changed one on my M14P Yak52, only to be presented with the same problem again on the replaced coil. (Everything else has been checked out).
Discussions with various people seem to point to it being an ”age” breakdown problem with the coils rather than a “amount of use” problem.
So, the question is, does anyone have a supply of KNOWN GOOD coils that can be used as a replacement?
If anyone DOES, can they let me know price including shipping to the UK? Or, and alternative source of supply (Termikas tell me “not available” and “unable to overhaul”).
Thanks in advance everyone…
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor/Examiner and Display Pilot
_________________________________________________
email: nigel(at)yakdisplay.com (nigel(at)yakdisplay.com)
mobile: (+44) 7809 116676
web:http://yakdisplay.com
[img]cid:image001.png(at)01D0C89B.D3F836D0[/img]
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dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:00 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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None of my business Nigel, but if you don't mind I'd like to ask a question.
Assuming your engine is having "total cuts in flight", and you know which mag you think is causing the problem, have you ever turned that mag completely OFF with the mag switch and tested to see if the condition continues?
And another suggestion that may sound rather dumb, but ...... .
I have seen the wiring to the mag switch reversed on more than one occasion. This obviously can lead the owner to think the wrong mag is bad. Simply put an ohm-meter on the P lead and check to see which switch position grounds it JUST TO BE SURE.
My 2 cents only.
Mark
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nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:35 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Thanks Mark. Yes, p-leads have been traced to ensure correct mag was looked at. And when I say total cut, I had a rough engine, and selected mags individually in flight to see which was causing the problem. On mag2, got a total cut. Mag1 ran fine.
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor / Examiner
Display Pilot
Tel. 07809 116676
Web. yakdisplay.com
Sent from my HTC One mini 2
----- Reply message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52)
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 2015 16:20
None of my business Nigel, but if you don't mind I'd like to ask a question
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:52 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Nigel,
Did you verify the points are opening and closing properly and set to
.25-.35mm? See if the foot of the points is still there and not worn
down to where it does not contact the point cam. Poor lubrication of
the cam causes the foot to wear significantly. If the points are not
opening, the mag will not fire.
Did you check the high voltage stick to make sure it was not arcing to
ground on the side of it? Sometimes the high voltage stick is cracked.
Especially right around the part of the stick that is protruding just
above the hole in fits into. If it cracks, the voltage from the coil
will never make it to the cap because it is arcing to ground.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/27/2015 10:31 AM, Nigel Willson wrote:
[quote] Thanks Mark. Yes, p-leads have been traced to ensure correct mag was
looked at. And when I say total cut, I had a rough engine, and
selected mags individually in flight to see which was causing the
problem. On mag2, got a total cut. Mag1 ran fine.
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor / Examiner
Display Pilot
Tel. 07809 116676
Web. yakdisplay.com
Sent from my HTC One mini 2
----- Reply message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52)
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 2015 16:20
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
None of my business Nigel, but if you don't mind I'd like to ask a
question.
Assuming your engine is having "total cuts in flight", and you know
which mag you think is causing the problem, have you ever turned that
mag completely OFF with the mag switch and tested to see if the
condition continues?
And another suggestion that may sound rather dumb, but ...... .
I have seen the wiring to the mag switch reversed on more than one
occasion. This obviously can lead the owner to think the wrong mag is
bad. Simply put an ohm-meter on the P lead and check to see which
switch position grounds it JUST TO BE SURE.
My 2 cents only.
Mark
--
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nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:09 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Thanks Dennis. Will pass it on to the maintenance guys. I suspect they have checked these things already though. They have been looking after yams for years. The problem has been intermittent so far, except for the last flight. Strangely after a coil change...
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor / Examiner
Display Pilot
Tel. 07809 116676
Web. yakdisplay.com
Sent from my HTC One mini 2
----- Reply message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52)
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 2015 17:03
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>
Nigel,
Did you verify the points are opening and closing properly and set to
.25-.35mm? See if the foot of the points is still there and not worn
down to where it does not contact the point cam. Poor lubrication of
the cam causes the foot to wear significantly. If the points are not
opening, the mag will not fire.
Did you check the high voltage stick to make sure it was not arcing to
ground on the side of it? Sometimes the high voltage stick is cracked.
Especially right around the part of the stick that is protruding just
above the hole in fits into. If it cracks, the voltage from the coil
will never make it to the cap because it is arcing to ground.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/27/2015 10:31 AM, Nigel Willson wrote:
> Thanks Mark. Yes, p-leads have been traced to ensure correct mag was
> looked at. And when I say total cut, I had a rough engine, and
> selected mags individually in flight to see which was causing the
> problem. On mag2, got a total cut. Mag1 ran fine.
>
> Regards,
>
> Nigel Willson
> Flying Instructor / Examiner
> Display Pilot
>
> Tel. 07809 116676
> Web. yakdisplay.com
>
> Sent from my HTC One mini 2
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
> To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
> Subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52)
> Date: Mon, Jul 27, 2015 16:20
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
> <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
>
> None of my business Nigel, but if you don't mind I'd like to ask a
> question.
>
> Assuming your engine is having "total cuts in flight", and you know
> which mag you think is causing the problem, have you ever turned that
> mag completely OFF with the mag switch and tested to see if the
> condition continues?
>
> And another suggestion that may sound rather dumb, but ...... .
>
> I have seen the wiring to the mag switch reversed on more than one
> occasion. This obviously can lead the owner to think the wrong mag is
> bad. Simply put an ohm-meter on the P lead and check to see which
> switch position grounds it JUST TO BE SURE.
>
> My 2 cents only.
>
> Mark
>
>
> --
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:22 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Thanks! Perfect!
Mark
--
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:23 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Advice worth much more than 2 cents.
In 60 years of engine maintenance this is a fairly common occurrence. When
you suspect a mag problem confirming location has to be the first task.
Walt
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:30 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Nigel, I have to concur with Dennis, it is kind of logical that if you change the coil and have the exact same problem, it might be something else.
He pointed out the two "logical something else's" that I was getting ready to say. Other than those two ... the only other weird thing I have seen is the actual P lead wire that was under a tie wrap that cut into it and caused the P lead to short to ground with engine vibration. That one was extremely tough to find.
Mark
--
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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I'm not saying that what I'm about to say defines the problem. But when
a coil is replaced, thetop contact in the coil touches the high voltage
stick. Plus the wire from the coil is passed up through a hole and
affixed to the block right next to the stick. It is possible the stick
moved ever so slightly and is now arcing to ground.
Also, it could be the foot on the points has finally worn down to where
the foot no longer rubs on the cam. As previously stated, if the points
don't open, coil not work-ee. 
Why not just replace the high voltage stick just for grins and see what
happens? BTW, don'tput your finger on it to test it while someone
rotates the prop. You might earn a Darwin award if you did.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/27/2015 11:06 AM, Nigel Willson wrote:
[quote] Thanks Dennis. Will pass it on to the maintenance guys. I suspect they
have checked these things already though. They have been looking after
yams for years. The problem has been intermittent so far, except for
the last flight. Strangely after a coil change...
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor / Examiner
Display Pilot
Tel. 07809 116676
Web. yakdisplay.com
Sent from my HTC One mini 2
----- Reply message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52)
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 2015 17:03
<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>
Nigel,
Did you verify the points are opening and closing properly and set to
.25-.35mm? See if the foot of the points is still there and not worn
down to where it does not contact the point cam. Poor lubrication of
the cam causes the foot to wear significantly. If the points are not
opening, the mag will not fire.
Did you check the high voltage stick to make sure it was not arcing to
ground on the side of it? Sometimes the high voltage stick is cracked.
Especially right around the part of the stick that is protruding just
above the hole in fits into. If it cracks, the voltage from the coil
will never make it to the cap because it is arcing to ground.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com>
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/27/2015 10:31 AM, Nigel Willson wrote:
> Thanks Mark. Yes, p-leads have been traced to ensure correct mag was
> looked at. And when I say total cut, I had a rough engine, and
> selected mags individually in flight to see which was causing the
> problem. On mag2, got a total cut. Mag1 ran fine.
>
> Regards,
>
> Nigel Willson
> Flying Instructor / Examiner
> Display Pilot
>
> Tel. 07809 116676
> Web. yakdisplay.com
>
> Sent from my HTC One mini 2
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
> To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
> Subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52)
> Date: Mon, Jul 27, 2015 16:20
>
>
> <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
>
> None of my business Nigel, but if you don't mind I'd like to ask a
> question.
>
> Assuming your engine is having "total cuts in flight", and you know
> which mag you think is causing the problem, have you ever turned that
> mag completely OFF with the mag switch and tested to see if the
> condition continues?
>
> And another suggestion that may sound rather dumb, but ...... .
>
> I have seen the wiring to the mag switch reversed on more than one
> occasion. This obviously can lead the owner to think the wrong mag is
> bad. Simply put an ohm-meter on the P lead and check to see which
> switch position grounds it JUST TO BE SURE.
>
> My 2 cents only.
>
> Mark
>
>
> --
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nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:52 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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All experiences welcome! Have passed it on! Thanks
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor/Examiner and Display Pilot
_________________________________________________
email: nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
mobile: (+44) 7809 116676
web:http://yakdisplay.com
--
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nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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OK thanks Dennis. But this morning when I had to transit it back to the mtce airfield (10minute flight), all was ok with both mags.
Seems to be a temperature related issue....
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor/Examiner and Display Pilot
_________________________________________________
email: nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
mobile: (+44) 7809 116676
web: http://yakdisplay.com
--
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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That's good to know Nigel.
That tell me the points are working.
Since some of the high voltage sticks arecoated with wax; the hotter the
mag gets, the softer the wax gets. If there is even the smallest crack
in the wrapping around the stick which is covered by the wax, when the
wax gets soft, it may be allowing the stick to arc to ground.
I'd still replace the high voltage stick. They are inexpensive.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/27/2015 12:21 PM, Nigel Willson wrote:
[quote]
OK thanks Dennis. But this morning when I had to transit it back to the mtce airfield (10minute flight), all was ok with both mags.
Seems to be a temperature related issue....
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor/Examiner and Display Pilot
_________________________________________________
email: nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
mobile: (+44) 7809 116676
web: http://yakdisplay.com
--
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Hi all,
I had some inflight "entertainment" with these coils in past two years as well. Seems that is age-related plus heat sensitive. Recently I had put two "good" coils on the Yak but the flight test produced great cut-outs once again after minimum half an hour in the air. So I put them in the oven at 75 degrees Celsius for 3 hours and yes, as expected, spark length reduced from half an inch cold to around 4mm to max 7mm hot, so not acceptable !
I had rewinds last year with no heat variation on spark length, be it cold or hot, capacitor external, car type. But I did not like the thin spark after the rewind, around half an inch length was OK though. So just now there are two fresh poor coils for rewind, will tell results then.
So in the present case I´d suggest putting the mags in the oven and see after 3 hours what they do. I guess you will find unacceptable sparks for operation. As I see it, the Russian coils with their coating on the windings and the internal capacitor may age so I will not fit any coil again as long as I do not know when it was produced. Besides, helicopter engines with M 14 radials had extra cooling ducts for both mags !!
So no need for a lot of head scratching about other spark shorting out anywhere in the mag: Try another coil in your mag in both conditions, cold and hot and see yourself: A good/modern coil will get you a long fat spark in warm mode whereas a bad coil will fail this test with all the rest of the mag being the same components.
Good luck with that one
Cheers
Vic
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pcs(at)designworx.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:42 pm Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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Nigel,
I am just parachuting into this discussion, so I may not be clear as to your
challenge, I had intermittent running problems years ago. I really
struggled with it. I came to dislike the aircraft for a while as it the
engine would gallup and chuff and shake the cowl. In flight..
iIntermittently. Sometimes occasionally, sometimes periodically. I tried a
bunch of things but what did the trick was to discard the Russian ignition
wire ring and replace it with freestanding wires. It seems that there were
short in the insulated shielded wires in the ring and the real tell was when
I figured out that the problem was happening at altitudes of 5-7k and above
(approximately) shorting became more prevalent as the shielding and
conductivity changes with altitude.
If youve already done that then never mind! 
My $.02 Cheers!
From: <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Nigel Willson
<nigel(at)yakdisplay.com>
Reply-To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Monday, July 27, 2015 at 6:22 AM
To: "info(at)m-14p.com" <info(at)m-14p.com>, "yak-list(at)matronics.com"
<yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52)
Jill/All,
Recent threads on the subject of mag problems and total cuts in flights etc
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:18 am Post subject: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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I agree here. I chased around intermittent but persistent missing and
such. On the way to OSH one year, I had to divert into Americus, GA. where a
young greasy faced kid with a deep southern drawl, informed me that my
ignition wires were breaking down. I went to the auto conversion and have had
no problems with that part of the system. Now it seem that coils are my
first suspicion after plugs. The original harness though well built and
state of the art for time, the insulation will brake down over time. It is a
bitch to change out one or two of those wires though that ring believe me
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:45 am Post subject: Re: M14P mag coils (YAk52) |
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You have to be very specific on tests: Problems in the ht leads, spark plugs etc. are normally not heat related so you should find them by the mag checks before takeoff. Problems with coils are definitely temperature (and age) related and you will not detect that by mag checks but only after minimum half an hour in the air. So for checking the coil you have to use an oven to see for yourself - worked each time I changed coils hoping for a good one.
Problems with leads or plugs should not be so dramatic in the air like cut-outs due to a faulty coil, this feels quite different.
Vic
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