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saolesen(at)sirentel.net
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 Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:11 pm Post subject: Contactor or master switch problem? |
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I have been having some starting and electrical issues which I think may involve the master switch or the battery contactor.
My son and I were going out flying one day last week, had preflighted the plane, and after we pulled the plane from the hanger we switched on the master switch. The electronics came on briefly and then faded away. There was no power for the starter. I thought that was odd because the plane normally has charger attached while in the hanger. The Odyssey specific charger indicated the battery was charged. After a quick trip home to find a volt meter we tested the voltage which was 13+v. We had the charger on while we gone so the reading was skewed because of that. We pulled the plane out and the electronics and starter worked normally.
On Sat., I flew 8 trips of Young Eagles with no starting or electrical problems. After the event was over, a trip to the fuel pump had the electronics working but the starter contactor clicking but no prop rotation. I cycled the master switch several times and finally the engine turned over like nothing was wrong. I have a 1200 nm trip coming up soon so I need an answer so there are no problems along the way.
The battery is a PC680 about 2 years old. The master switch (Carling) and battery contactor (B&C) are about 7 years old and have around 630 hours. Apparently the volts and amps are there but getting choked off before they can do their work. Right now, my thought is to replace them both, but especially the master switch, due to my impending trip. Any thoughts, better ideas or am I missing something?
Sheldon Olesen
Sent from my iPad
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m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:32 pm Post subject: Contactor or master switch problem? |
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Hello Sheldon,
Before changing anything, I suggest you carry out a thorough check of the
connections to all of the relevant components, especially those of the
battery terminals, the starter and the ground returns. Look particularly at
the braided grounding strap between the engine and the battery negative.
Your time of 630 hours is not particularly high for the master switch and
battery contactor, but if the connections all check out then you could
change the component that is more difficult to access in the field and take
with you a spare for the other. This would give you a chance to find out
which is giving the trouble without having too much of a problem to fix on
your long trip.
Good luck!
Mike
--
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:54 pm Post subject: Contactor or master switch problem? |
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On 8/2/2015 5:58 PM, rnjcurtis(at)charter.net (rnjcurtis(at)charter.net) wrote:
| Quote: |
I have been having some starting and electrical issues which I think may involve the master switch or the battery contactor.
My son and I were going out flying one day last week, had preflighted the plane, and after we pulled the plane from the hanger we switched on the master switch. The electronics came on briefly and then faded away. There was no power for the starter. I thought that was odd because the plane normally has charger attached while in the hanger. The Odyssey specific charger indicated the battery was charged. After a quick trip home to find a volt meter we tested the voltage which was 13+v. We had the charger on while we gone so the reading was skewed because of that. We pulled the plane out and the electronics and starter worked normally.
On Sat., I flew 8 trips of Young Eagles with no starting or electrical problems. After the event was over, a trip to the fuel pump had the electronics working but the starter contactor clicking but no prop rotation. I cycled the master switch several times and finally the engine turned over like nothing was wrong. I have a 1200 nm trip coming up soon so I need an answer so there are no problems along the way.
The battery is a PC680 about 2 years old. The master switch (Carling) and battery contactor (B&C) are about 7 years old and have around 630 hours. Apparently the volts and amps are there but getting choked off before they can do their work. Right now, my thought is to replace them both, but especially the master switch, due to my impending trip. Any thoughts, better ideas or am I missing something?
| Quote: | | Quote: | I had a similar problem a couple of years back. I would have to turn the master on and off several times to get power to the starter and electronics. Once the power came up it would run flawlessly until the next time I tried to start it.
The problem turned out to be a bad, internal contact corrosion, master solenoid. I replaced it and the problem went away completely. After I replaced it I sent the defective unit to Bob N and he dissected it, took pictures, and posted on this forum. It is likely that you have a similar problem.
Roger
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I'd probably vote with Roger. If you hear the master contactor 'clack' with its normal sound every time you flip the master switch, then the switch is almost certainly doing its job properly. The 'clack' means that the master switch is sending activation current to the contactor, and the solenoid in the contactor is moving the contacts together (the clack). That leaves the contacts themselves, assuming that you've checked all the connections, including ground side connections.
Charlie
[quote][b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: Contactor or master switch problem? |
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Like Charley, I support Roger's take. Do you have a diode across the starter contacter? If not then I'd add possible burned contacts on the Carling switch, too. Good luck, and if pass over SE Kansas on your trip wave to Bob and me.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On 8/2/2015 5:58 PM, rnjcurtis(at)charter.net (rnjcurtis(at)charter.net) wrote:
| Quote: |
I have been having some starting and electrical issues which I think may involve the master switch or the battery contactor.
My son and I were going out flying one day last week, had preflighted the plane, and after we pulled the plane from the hanger we switched on the master switch. The electronics came on briefly and then faded away. There was no power for the starter. I thought that was odd because the plane normally has charger attached while in the hanger. The Odyssey specific charger indicated the battery was charged. After a quick trip home to find a volt meter we tested the voltage which was 13+v. We had the charger on while we gone so the reading was skewed because of that. We pulled the plane out and the electronics and starter worked normally.
On Sat., I flew 8 trips of Young Eagles with no starting or electrical problems. After the event was over, a trip to the fuel pump had the electronics working but the starter contactor clicking but no prop rotation. I cycled the master switch several times and finally the engine turned over like nothing was wrong. I have a 1200 nm trip coming up soon so I need an answer so there are no problems along the way.
The battery is a PC680 about 2 years old. The master switch (Carling) and battery contactor (B&C) are about 7 years old and have around 630 hours. Apparently the volts and amps are there but getting choked off before they can do their work. Right now, my thought is to replace them both, but especially the master switch, due to my impending trip. Any thoughts, better ideas or am I missing something?
| Quote: | | Quote: | I had a similar problem a couple of years back. I would have to turn the master on and off several times to get power to the starter and electronics. Once the power came up it would run flawlessly until the next time I tried to start it.
The problem turned out to be a bad, internal contact corrosion, master solenoid. I replaced it and the problem went away completely. After I replaced it I sent the defective unit to Bob N and he dissected it, took pictures, and posted on this forum. It is likely that you have a similar problem.
Roger
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I'd probably vote with Roger. If you hear the master contactor 'clack' with its normal sound every time you flip the master switch, then the switch is almost certainly doing its job properly. The 'clack' means that the master switch is sending activation current to the contactor, and the solenoid in the contactor is moving the contacts together (the clack). That leaves the contacts themselves, assuming that you've checked all the connections, including ground side connections.
Charlie
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ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:07 pm Post subject: Contactor or master switch problem? |
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I'm with everyone else, and bet your problems are related to the contactor. I have had numerous contractors fail over the years. This is the reason I decided to go with the solid state master relay. Cost was higher but the weight is similar and it works flawlessly so far. No more "click" means no more arcing and worn out mechanical components. Solid state relays are known to last for millions of cycles. More than we could ever do. The peace of mind alone is worth the added cost. By the time you buy 2 contactors, you have paid for this unit.
I was worried at first that it would not charge the battery through the relay but that proved to be no factor. It charges fine. So far, I am very happy with it.
Rated at:
12.5V DC
300A continuous
500A (1sec) inrush
Seems robust enough so far.
http://www.waytekwire.com/item/44407/300A-Solid-State-Battery/
Data Sheet:
http://www.waytekwire.com/datasheet/44407.pdf
Justin
| Quote: | On Aug 2, 2015, at 23:14, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:
My guess is the contactor is at fault. Once a contactor is energized, it does not take as much current to hold it closed. If the master switch conducted enough current to energize the contactor, then the switch should be able to hold the contactor closed. But if you replace both, there is no guessing.
Also check the terminals on the fat wires, including the battery ground.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445525#445525
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:04 am Post subject: Contactor or master switch problem? |
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At 04:10 PM 8/2/2015, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sheldon Olesen <saolesen(at)sirentel.net>
I have been having some starting and electrical issues which I think may involve the master switch or the battery contactor.
My son and I were going out flying one day last week, had preflighted the plane, and after we pulled the plane from the hanger we switched on the master switch. The electronics came on briefly and then faded away. There was no power for the starter. I thought that was odd because the plane normally has charger attached while in the hanger. The Odyssey specific charger indicated the battery was charged. After a quick trip home to find a volt meter we tested the voltage which was 13+v. We had the charger on while we gone so the reading was skewed because of that. We pulled the plane out and the electronics and starter worked normally.\ |
The legacy "beer-barrel" contactors are
large area, low pressure switching devices.
[img]cid:.0[/img]
http://tinyurl.com/5uh3b8
The highest risk for failure is corrosion
since these are not a sealed device and
the contacts are pure . . . or nearly pure
copper.
http://tinyurl.com/pw342c3
We've had discussions like this on the List
for decades . . . invariably, the conversations
morph into reliability discussions wherein
there is no distinction made between "system
reliability" (relative criticality and risks
imposed by failure) and "service life" (the
critter has simply used up all it's nine lives).
This style of contactor is the LEAST expensive
product suited to our task but as such, it can
be expected to have a shorter service life than
say a hermetically sealed, $high$ contactor.
As I've suggested for years, your decisions
need to be tempered with trade offs for
cost of ownership, impacts on system performance
and risks associated with failure to perform.
Obviously, for the time any of us expect to
own and operate a single-engine, light aircraft,
the cost-of-ownership question is a no-brainer.
The $24 contactor
http://tinyurl.com/nzern26
Is guaranteed to offer a lower cost per
flight-hour than these oft recommened
upgrades . . .
Tyco EV200 . . . which is a bit 'noisy'
http://tinyurl.com/qyexahd
http://tinyurl.com/p2uwagu
or a Gigavac GX-11 noise free . . .
http://tinyurl.com/qa9m9ne
http://tinyurl.com/pdknjb2
How about performance? Hmmm . . . they
have few differences to offer in terms of
weight savings or fuel consumption. They
either work . . . or not.
Okay, how about risk? There's a constellation
of reasons why a contactor may fail to
perform including wiring and control switches.
Prudent failure mode effects analysis dictates
that we ASSUME the contactor is going to fail,
irrespective of it's pedigree or price.
That thinking is what prompted the creation
of the E-bus many years ago and the two-layered,
three energy sourced architecture illustrated
in Figure Z-13/8
http://tinyurl.com/kgg8nva
Once you're homework is done, the loss of
ANY contactor is at worst an inconvenience
on the order of having a flat tire or having
lots of bird-poop to clean off the airplane
before you can go flying. Risks to airframe
and occupants are zero.
The key to comfortable flight in a complex
machine is a three-legged stool.
1. absolute reliability (wing spars, prop bolts,
well maintained batteries, etc)
2. failure tolerance (e-bus, two alternators)
3. understanding of how any failure critical
to comfortable termination of flight will
manifest and crafting a plan-b to deal with
it. See:
http://tinyurl.com/kqo7jx8
http://tinyurl.com/lrjlhhq
I owned an airport back about 1989. Had
occasion to replace two beer-barrel contactors
in the rental fleet in six months . . . both had
been in service for many years. They only
cost about $18 back then. It was less time consuming
to replace the contactors than to get the bird-poop
off an airplane that had been sitting a pole-barn
hangars for a few weeks.
Then there is the ultimate fall-back position:
Whether flying the J-3 or an A-36 with all the
goodies, this collection of stuff in my flight
bag has a 99.9 probability of getting me where
I want to go even if the whole panel is dark.
http://tinyurl.com/ok7sjzt
Just make sure the batteries are all FRESH.
I put new cells in at the beginning of every
long x-c flight . . . they're cheap.
Bob . . .
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saolesen(at)sirentel.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:07 am Post subject: Contactor or master switch problem? |
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saolesen(at)sirentel.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:27 pm Post subject: Contactor or master switch problem? |
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Why the content was lost on the previous submission, I don't know. Here it is again hopefully with the content intact.
Thanks to all who replied to my battery contactor --master switch problem.
I checked the wiring for security as suggested and found that the positive battery terminal was a little loose. It wasn't floppy loose, but just loose enough so that the ring terminal could be pushed around by moderate finger pressure. Whether that was enough to cause the problems I experienced, I don't know. For peace of mind, I also swapped out the contactor. I flew the plane this morning with no issues with the starter or panel, so I think the problem is solved.
Thanks again for all the help,
Sheldon Olesen
Do not archive
Sent from my iPad
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