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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:33 am Post subject: overheating |
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How about a richer mixture in the mid-rpm range? I.e., by switching to smaller jet needles.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2, 582-90 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
From: TURBO T <turbot(at)shaw.ca>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:52 AM
Subject: overheating
#yiv7318603789 p {margin:0;}Got a model 2 KF with 582 that's getting to warm 180-200 under load.
Did a bunch of reading & came up with this plan.
On next trip to airport am going to try the following in stages;
- check coolant mix
- drop rad 1" to get into more airflow, & fill 1" space with foam to seal gap ( have standard ( I think ) 4"ish high rad under cabin )
- check for a thermostat & check its temp setting
- pull rad & check for scale buildup
May try a laser thermometer on head to check the temp gauge also.
Anyone been through this & want to add anything.
| Quote: |
ronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
ronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[quote][b]
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:31 pm Post subject: overheating |
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Use 90 % distilled water
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2015, at 15:32, Marco Menezes <msm_9949(at)yahoo.com (msm_9949(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]How about a richer mixture in the mid-rpm range? I.e., by switching to smaller jet needles.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2, 582-90 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
From: TURBO T <turbot(at)shaw.ca (turbot(at)shaw.ca)>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:52 AM
Subject: overheating
Got a model 2 KF with 582 that's getting to warm 180-200 under load.
Did a bunch of reading & came up with this plan.
On next trip to airport am going to try the following in stages;
- check coolant mix
- drop rad 1" to get into more airflow, & fill 1" space with foam to seal gap ( have standard ( I think ) 4"ish high rad under cabin )
- check for a thermostat & check its temp setting
- pull rad & check for scale buildup
May try a laser thermometer on head to check the temp gauge also.
Anyone been through this & want to add anything.
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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poasttown(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:19 pm Post subject: overheating |
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When I had a 582 on my mod. IV, now have a Jabiru, I had a similar problem and did many of the things you have done including; lowering the radiator, adding a shroud around the radiator, checked thermostat and coolant. I even would turn the heater on on run up and climb out which did help some. Sorry to say that I never really solved the problem. On the plus side I did most of my flying in the early A.M. or later in the afternoon. After much head scratching and talking to some of the Rotax reps at Oshkosh my conclusion, which could have been incorrect, was to closely monitor the situation and continue to fly. In a few situations with both the Rotax and Jabiru I discovered a faulty sensor or gauge and not an actual engine issue at all. I'm sure my ramblings are not very helpful but you may want to talk to a factory rep if possible.
Mike
1996 Kitfox IV
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2015, at 6:18 PM, Dave <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:
[quote]Use 90 % distilled water
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2015, at 15:32, Marco Menezes <msm_9949(at)yahoo.com (msm_9949(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | How about a richer mixture in the mid-rpm range? I.e., by switching to smaller jet needles.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2, 582-90 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
From: TURBO T <turbot(at)shaw.ca (turbot(at)shaw.ca)>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:52 AM
Subject: overheating
Got a model 2 KF with 582 that's getting to warm 180-200 under load.
Did a bunch of reading & came up with this plan.
On next trip to airport am going to try the following in stages;
- check coolant mix
- drop rad 1" to get into more airflow, & fill 1" space with foam to seal gap ( have standard ( I think ) 4"ish high rad under cabin )
- check for a thermostat & check its temp setting
- pull rad & check for scale buildup
May try a laser thermometer on head to check the temp gauge also.
Anyone been through this & want to add anything.
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
x-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
//forums.matronics.com
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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[b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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lcfitt3(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:30 pm Post subject: overheating |
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Back in the day there were several guys that routinely moved their radiators down an inch or so in the summer then back up when the temps cooled down.
Lowell On Aug 31, 2015 6:33 PM, "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:[quote]Use 90 % distilled water
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2015, at 15:32, Marco Menezes <msm_9949(at)yahoo.com (msm_9949(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | How about a richer mixture in the mid-rpm range? I.e., by switching to smaller jet needles.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2, 582-90 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
From: TURBO T <turbot(at)shaw.ca (turbot(at)shaw.ca)>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:52 AM
Subject: overheating
Got a model 2 KF with 582 that's getting to warm 180-200 under load.
Â
Did a bunch of reading & came up with this plan.
Â
On next trip to airport am going to try the following in stages;
Â
- check coolant mix
- drop rad 1" to get into more airflow, & fill 1" space with foam to seal gap ( have standard ( I think ) 4"ish high rad under cabin )
- check for a thermostat & check its temp setting
- pull rad & check for scale buildup
Â
May try a laser thermometer on head to check the temp gauge also.
Â
Anyone been through this & want to add anything.
Â
Â
Â
Â
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:29 am Post subject: overheating |
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You can also try a prop spinner which directs air into the rad vents.  If that doesn’t work try some scoops to direct more air into the rad aslso make sure air leaving the rad is not obstructed.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: August-31-15 7:49 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: overheating
Use 90 % distilled water
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2015, at 15:32, Marco Menezes <msm_9949(at)yahoo.com (msm_9949(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
How about a richer mixture in the mid-rpm range? I.e., by switching to smaller jet needles.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2, 582-90 w/clutch
Hersey, MI
From: TURBO T <turbot(at)shaw.ca (turbot(at)shaw.ca)>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:52 AM
Subject: overheating
Got a model 2 KF with 582 that's getting to warm 180-200 under load.
Did a bunch of reading & came up with this plan.
On next trip to airport am going to try the following in stages;
- check coolant mix
- drop rad 1" to get into more airflow, & fill 1" space with foam to seal gap ( have standard ( I think ) 4"ish high rad under cabin )
- check for a thermostat & check its temp setting
- pull rad & check for scale buildup
May try a laser thermometer on head to check the temp gauge also.
Anyone been through this & want to add anything.
012345
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678901234567890123
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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mikeperkins
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:15 am Post subject: Re: overheating |
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I routinely fly my 532 with a coolant temp of 180 and sometimes see 200-210 on a warm-day climb-out. That is no problem assuming you have the proper mix of coolant. Running 50/50 mix will provide a boiling point of 260 degrees at sea level. (As you climb, the engine puts out less power, so the coolant requirements decrease, keeping the coolant temp about the same. I've been at 10,000 feet on several occasions, and the coolant did not overflow the overflow bottle and the temp stayed reasonable.
Also, coolant flowing into the overflow will reduce the volume of the coolant in the system, reducing the coolant pressure. The overflow should always have some coolant in it, and after a long, high flight I often see 10-12 ounces of coolant in it, which then returns to the cooling system an hour or so after the flight.
It might be a good idea to determine if your coolant sensor and gauge are reading correctly by placing the sensor in a pot of boiling water.
You likely have a 140-degree thermostat. The thermostat just speeds up the warming process, and also prevents the coolant temp from getting too low in cold weather. Mine is a 140-degree thermostat, but the engine should not even be run at full power at only 140 degrees. But with coolant temperatures of 180-200 on a warm day, and as long as your coolant bottle is not overflowing, your aircraft should need no changes.
Whatever you do, don't change the mixture. 2-cycles are not like 4-cycle engines - they do not tolerate mixture changes. Also, renrichening the mixture will change the engine's temperature so little that it won't be noticeable. The engine should be fine with the factory setup. The prop pitch is used to adjust EGTs, believe it or not. There's a great video on the EAA website about 2-cycle mixture and prop pitch. It's called "Is your 2-cycle engine about to fail?" Worth watching.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop |
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malpass
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Marietta, Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:19 am Post subject: overheating |
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Believe it or not "water wetter" will bring your temps down a fair amount at full bore takeoff and climb. I got about 5 degress by doing that.
[quote] ---
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead |
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:37 am Post subject: overheating |
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I respectfully disagree, Mike, that Rotax 2 strokes "don't tolerate mixture changes."
There has been much written about seasonal adjustment of mid-range needles on Bing carbs and mixture as it effects EGT's. See http://www.cps-parts.com/cps/pdf/Part11.pdf as a jump-off point. I've done for years it and it works as advertised. Granted, by itself it probably won't have a great effect on the coolant temps, but we're just throwing out ideas here. In combination with some of the other suggestions made, it might be an element to be considered. A degree here, a couple there, and you're back in the green arc.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Hersey, MI
Kitfox 2, 582-90, C-Box, GSC w/clutch
From: mikeperkins <flybyewire(at)gmail.com> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2015 12:15 PM Subject: Re: overheating
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "mikeperkins" <flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)>I routinely fly my 532 with a coolant temp of 180 and sometimes see 200-210 on a warm-day climb-out. That is no problem assuming you have the proper mix of coolant. Running 50/50 mix will provide a boiling point of 260 degrees at sea level. (As you climb, the engine puts out less power, so the coolant requirements decrease, keeping the coolant temp about the same. I've been at 10,000 feet on several occasions, and the coolant did not overflow the overflow bottle and the temp stayed reasonable. Also, coolant flowing into the overflow will reduce the volume of the coolant in the system, reducing the coolant pressure. The overflow should always have some coolant in it, and after a long, high flight I often see 10-12 ounces of coolant in it, which then returns to the cooling system an hour or so after the flight. It might be a good idea to determine if your coolant sensor and gauge are reading correctly by placing the sensor in a pot of boiling water. You likely have a 140-degree thermostat. The thermostat just speeds up the warming process, and also prevents the coolant temp from getting too low in cold weather. Mine is a 140-degree thermostat, but the engine should not even be run at full power at only 140 degrees. But with coolant temperatures of 180-200 on a warm day, and as long as your coolant bottle is not overflowing, your aircraft should need no changes.Whatever you do, don't change the mixture. 2-cycles are not like 4-cycle engines - they do not tolerate mixture changes. Also, renrichening the mixture will change the engine's temperature so little that it won't be noticeable. The engine should be fine with the factory setup. The prop pitch is used to adjust EGTs, believe it or not. There's a great video on the EAA website about 2-cycle mixture and prop pitch. It's called "Is your 2-cycle engine about to fail?" Worth watching.--------Mike PerkinsHavana, Illinois Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446655#446655http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
[quote][b]
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mikeperkins
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:04 am Post subject: Re: overheating |
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Hi Marco,
You're right - making mixture changes for getting the correct EGTs is quite acceptable. I wrote what I did because over the years I've heard people suggest changing the mixture for a quick-fix of various ailments. Yes, they do tolerate mixture changes, but I believe those changes should be made only for the purpose of bringing EGTs into spec.
What problem do you foresee with a coolant temp of 200 degrees? Is there a green arc specification somewhere that I've missed?
Mike
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop |
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malpass
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Marietta, Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:31 am Post subject: Re: overheating |
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In regard to coolant temp being 200 degrees, If you talk to the techs at Lockwood they will tell you that the "weak link" in the 582 is the design of the head and the rectangular gasket. I have been told that the gasket material has has a much greater chance of failure when the water temps go even into the 195 range, but the concensus is that for a brief period of these hot temperatures may be OK, such as short term climb-out. I was always told that the water temp should be about 175 max and at 180 was too hot and if you look at the specs this is about right, so I added another radiator in series and it did no good, added water wetter and amazingly it helped, but making sure that the level of the 50/50 is slap full at the cap and even the overflow tube also helps. Other than that, on a super hot day, full bore climbout, mine will do about 190-195 until I go into cruise, then it goes to about 178 degrees. It seems that with high water temps that this should effect the cht temp, but mine always runs just slightly in the green at 200 degrees. It seems it should show a hotter temp on the cht guage but it doesnt. 200 degrees is just a hair away from the yellow caution area. I am not sure if I should be concerned here or not.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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