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johngoodman
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA
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 Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:12 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
Call Sign and Type Aircraft: N122WK, RV10
Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
POB/Injuries or Fatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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#40572 Phase One complete in 2011 |
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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:28 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
CT
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 17/09/2015, Ã s 14:12, "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> escreveu:
| Quote: |
Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
Call Sign and Type Aircraft: N122WK, RV10
Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
POB/Injuries or Fatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
--------
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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n801bh(at)netzero.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:54 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Not far from the end of the runway and into the tree tops..... At 3 AM no less... Geez...
Godspeed to those poor passengers..
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
--------
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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tysonr
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:03 am Post subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Mine was built as a 5-seater. Upon purchase I immediately removed the center-rear seat belts.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Tyson |
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glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:11 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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2 small kids can count as one passenger depending on the weight..
On 17.09.2015 15:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:
| Quote: |
What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
CT
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 17/09/2015, Ã s 14:12, "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> escreveu:
>
>
> Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
>
> Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
>
> Call Sign and Type Aircraft: N122WK, RV10
>
> Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
>
> POB/Injuries or Fatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
>
> --------
> #40572 Phase One complete in 2011
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
>
>
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Not much for news to read yet, but interestingly, the fire
chief's last name matches the FAA registration last name
of the owner. Not sure of any relation. Sad to hear about it.
There are no facts that tell any tales yet.
Tim
http://wsav.com/2015/09/16/breaking-plane-crash-in-bacon-county-no-survivors/
http://www.wtoc.com/story/30053259/faa-ntsb-investigators-set-to-arrive-at-scene-of-bacon-county-plane-crash
On 9/17/2015 8:49 AM, Ben wrote:
| Quote: | Not far from the end of the runway and into the tree tops..... At 3 AM
no less... Geez...
Godspeed to those poor passengers..
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:16 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Always sad to hear. Don't recall the name..
40418
Status
Valid Manufacturer Name BOATRIGHT WAYLON Certificate Issue Date 12/10/2010 Model RV10
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 6:12 AM, johngoodman <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)>
Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
Call Sign and Type Aircraft:Â N122WK, RV10
Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
POB/Injuries or Fatalities:Â 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
--------
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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philperry9
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:48 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Quite a few photos of the victims on Facebook this morning. 5 Adults.
I noticed the fire chief too, but he's a Boatwright vs Boatright.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Sep 17, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> wrote:
2 small kids can count as one passenger depending on the weight..
> On 17.09.2015 15:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
>
> What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
>
> CT
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
>
> No dia 17/09/2015, Ã s 14:12, "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> escreveu:
>
>>
>>
>> Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
>>
>> Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
>>
>> Call Sign and Type Aircraft: N122WK, RV10
>>
>> Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
>>
>> POB/Injuries or Fatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
>>
>> --------
>> #40572 Phase One complete in 2011
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:59 am Post subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Thinking of their family.
Metar...
SP 16/09/2015 07:40->
SPECI KAMG 160740Z AUTO 06004KT 10SM BKN021 BKN041 22/19
A3021 RMK AO2 T02220194=
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Wayne G. |
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rvdave
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:00 am Post subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Very sad and gut wrenching. There is a video showing the airplane and airport environment in previous flights.
http://youtu.be/n-ZiJ8Ce4aQ
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Dave Ford
Cadillac, MI |
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rv10rob(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:00 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Interesting the FAA airman database shows he has a repairman certificate but no pilot certificate.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>
Quite a few photos of the victims on Facebook this morning.  5 Adults.
I noticed the fire chief too, but he's a Boatwright vs Boatright.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 17, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>
>
> 2 small kids can count as one passenger depending on the weight..
>
>> On 17.09.2015 15:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>
>>
>> What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
>>
>> CT
>>
>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>
>> No dia 17/09/2015, Ã s 14:12, "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)> escreveu:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)>
>>>
>>> Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
>>>
>>> Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
>>>
>>> Call Sign and Type Aircraft:Â N122WK, RV10
>>>
>>> Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
>>>
>>> POB/Injuries or Fatalities:Â 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
>>>
>>> --------
>>> #40572 Phase One complete in 2011
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
>
>
>
>
==
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:32 pm Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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I've been running the weight and balance with some assumed passenger/plane weights. It looks pretty easy with 5 adults to go aft cg as the fuel is reduced.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Sep 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Rob Kochman wrote:
| Quote: | Interesting the FAA airman database shows he has a repairman certificate but no pilot certificate.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>
Quite a few photos of the victims on Facebook this morning. 5 Adults.
I noticed the fire chief too, but he's a Boatwright vs Boatright.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 17, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>
>
> 2 small kids can count as one passenger depending on the weight..
>
>> On 17.09.2015 15:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>
>>
>> What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
>>
>> CT
>>
>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>
>> No dia 17/09/2015, às 14:12, "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)> escreveu:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)>
>>>
>>> Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
>>>
>>> Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
>>>
>>> Call Sign and Type Aircraft: N122WK, RV10
>>>
>>> Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
>>>
>>> POB/Injuries or Fatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
>>>
>>> --------
>>> #40572 Phase One complete in 2011
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
>
>
>
>
==
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
| Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
Westcott Press
1121 Isabel Street
Burbank, CA 91506
jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)
818-861-7300
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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partner14
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:58 pm Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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What really will push it into a total aft cg is if they had anything in the baggage area. If they had 3 160 pound passengers in the back seat area, without anything in the baggage area, they may have been within the limits of cg. Of course, depending on the weight of the front seat occupants, that could push them over the max weight (if they were big folk), or to aft cg (if they were tiny folks). Then you throw in fuel on board.... Gee, is that why they suggest you actually DO a weight and balance calculation......
Don McDonald
40636 800 hours.
Big Flyin' tomorrow at Pecan Plantation outside Granbury TX. 0TX1
Lot's of food, Planes, Young Eagles, Kid Venture, etc.
From: Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia
I've been running the weight and balance with some assumed passenger/plane weights. It looks pretty easy with 5 adults to go aft cg as the fuel is reduced.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Sep 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Rob Kochman wrote:
| Quote: | Interesting the FAA airman database shows he has a repairman certificate but no pilot certificate.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>
Quite a few photos of the victims on Facebook this morning. 5 Adults.
I noticed the fire chief too, but he's a Boatwright vs Boatright.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 17, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>
>
> 2 small kids can count as one passenger depending on the weight..
>
>> On 17.09.2015 15:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>
>>
>> What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
>>
>> CT
>>
>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>
>> No dia 17/09/2015, Ã s 14:12, "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)> escreveu:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)>
>>>
>>> Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
>>>
>>> Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
>>>
>>> Call Sign and Type Aircraft: N122WK, RV10
>>>
>>> Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
>>>
>>> POB/Injuries or Fatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
>>>
>>> --------
>>> #40572 Phase One complete in 2011
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
>
>
>
>
==
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
| Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
Westcott Press
1121 Isabel Street
Burbank, CA 91506
jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)
818-861-7300
| Quote: |
ronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
ronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636 |
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rv10flyer(at)live.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:41 pm Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Assuming that the weight 170 pilot/ 150 co-pilot and average of 150Lbs per person total of 450Lbs in the back, and 55 gallons, it also exceeds max weight. At or above max weight and aft of limits. Not a good situation at all
(disclaimer-. I state this as a general statement and not AT ALL indicating that was the root of this or any accident)
From: Jeff Carpenter (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 2:28 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia
I've been running the weight and balance with some assumed passenger/plane weights. It looks pretty easy with 5 adults to go aft cg as the fuel is reduced.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Sep 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Rob Kochman wrote:
| Quote: | Interesting the FAA airman database shows he has a repairman certificate but no pilot certificate.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>
Quite a few photos of the victims on Facebook this morning. 5 Adults.
I noticed the fire chief too, but he's a Boatwright vs Boatright.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Sep 17, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>
2 small kids can count as one passenger depending on the weight..
> On 17.09.2015 15:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>
>
> What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
>
> CT
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
>
> No dia 17/09/2015, às 14:12, "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)> escreveu:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)>
>>
>> Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
>>
>> Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
>>
>> Call Sign and Type Aircraft: N122WK, RV10
>>
>> Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
>>
>> POB/Injuries or Fatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
>>
>> --------
>> #40572 Phase One complete in 2011
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
|
==
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
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Westcott Press
1121 Isabel Street
Burbank, CA 91506
jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)
818-861-7300
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:56 pm Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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|
In response to a discussion on the POA board, I ran some numbers for my plane that shows you can carry 4 standards and a 100lb with 40 gallons - forgot to run it with some fuel run thru it. Yes it is...
No matter, it's just an unfortunate tragedy.
On 9/18/2015 5:28 PM, Jeff Carpenter wrote:
[quote]I've been running the weight and balance with some assumed passenger/plane weights. It looks pretty easy with 5 adults to go aft cg as the fuel is reduced.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Sep 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Rob Kochman wrote:
| Quote: | Interesting the FAA airman database shows he has a repairman certificate but no pilot certificate.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Phillip Perry <[url=mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com]philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Phillip Perry <[url=mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com]philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)[/url]>
Quite a few photos of the victims on Facebook this morning. 5 Adults.
I noticed the fire chief too, but he's a Boatwright vs Boatright.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 17, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>
>
> 2 small kids can count as one passenger depending on the weight..
>
>> On 17.09.2015 15:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>
>>
>> What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
>>
>> CT
>>
>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>
>> No dia 17/09/2015, às 14:12, "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)> escreveu:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" <[url=mailto:johngoodman(at)earthlink.net]johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)[/url]>
>>>
>>> Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
>>>
>>> Location: 4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway 32 and Mesquite Rd.
>>>
>>> Call Sign and Type Aircraft: N122WK, RV10
>>>
>>> Type of Flight Rules: Unknown
>>>
>>> POB/Injuries or Fatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
>>>
>>> --------
>>> #40572 Phase One complete in 2011
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
>
>
>
>
==
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
|
Westcott Press
1121 Isabel Street
Burbank, CA 91506
jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)
818-861-7300
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Date: 09/18/15 [b]
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
|
|
Although this is in no way an endorsement of flying overweight, I would
like to say that speculation of accidents, especially in the lowlands
of Georgia, is probably not going to be related to the overweight part.
CG perhaps, but with the performance the RV-10 has, I'm sure that
even at 300 or 400lbs over gross they'd still be outperforming your
average piper/cessna off that field. And if it was just slightly out
of aft CG, it would be unlikely that it would be a major issue as well.
The airplane gets very pitch sensitive at aft CG, but it would likely
have to be more then just a tiny bit aft, if it were the sole cause of
the accident. I do admit that when I heard "5 persons on board" I was
assuming one was a baby, and when seeing photos of those involved, it's
clear they were adults, so that does raise some eyebrows. But without
actually knowing the loading pattern and all, it's not worth speculating
too much. For all we know, the passenger stick was removable, and
someone sat on the co-pilots lap, which would almost definitely have
been enough to keep it in CG...and the lack of proper restraints could
have led to the delay in recognizing that there were 5 people on board.
That too is just head scratching speculation though. Once we hear
the NTSB report, we'll know a bit more I'm sure.
If you want to take comfort in one thing, keep this in mind. To date,
I know of no fatal accident in an RV-10 that was not caused by a
mistake that someone at the controls made. And, there have been a
fairly low number of fatals compared to many models of homebuilt.
We have, however, maintained a fairly steady rate of incident happening
ever since that first tragedy, so it's best we all keep these events
in the back of our own minds, lest we allow ourselves to do something
we shouldn't. Even if we cut the rate in half, I personally feel
we can do better.
Tim
On 9/18/2015 6:38 PM, Pascal wrote:
| Quote: | Assuming that the weight 170 pilot/ 150 co-pilot and average of 150Lbs
per person total of 450Lbs in the back, and 55 gallons, it also exceeds
max weight. At or above max weight and aft of limits. Not a good
situation at all
(disclaimer-. I state this as a general statement and not AT ALL
indicating that was the root of this or any accident)
*From:* Jeff Carpenter <mailto:jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
*Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2015 2:28 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
*Subject:* Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia
I've been running the weight and balance with some assumed
passenger/plane weights. It looks pretty easy with 5 adults to go aft cg
as the fuel is reduced.
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Sep 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Rob Kochman wrote:
> Interesting the FAA airman database shows he has a repairman
> certificate but no pilot certificate.
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com
> <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> <philperry9(at)gmail.com <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>>
>
> Quite a few photos of the victims on Facebook this morning. 5
> Adults.
>
> I noticed the fire chief too, but he's a Boatwright vs Boatright.
>
> Phil
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 17, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Werner Schneider<glastar(at)gmx.net <mailto:glastar(at)gmx.net>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >2 small kids can count as one passenger depending on the weight..
> >
> >> On 17.09.2015 15:23, Carlos Trigowrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
> >>
> >> CT
> >>
> >>Enviado do meu iPhone
> >>
> >> No dia 17/09/2015, às 14:12,"johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net
> <mailto:johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>> escreveu:
> >>
> >>> -->RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman"
> <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net <mailto:johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>>
> >>>
> >>>Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
> >>>
> >>> Location:4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway
> 32 and Mesquite Rd.
> >>>
> >>> Call Sign and TypeAircraft: N122WK, RV10
> >>>
> >>> Type of FlightRules: Unknown
> >>>
> >>> POB/Injuries orFatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
> >>>
> >>>--------
> >>> #40572 Phase One complete in2011
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Read this topic online here:
> >>>
> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ==
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ===========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ===========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===========
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
> *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
Westcott Press
1121 Isabel Street
Burbank, CA 91506
jeff(at)westcottpress.com <mailto:jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
818-861-7300
*href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c *
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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gengrumpy
Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 131
Location: Tullahoma, TN
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:26 pm Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
|
|
I agree with Tim. We should let the NTSB investigation tell us what they think is most plausible.
However, I, like Tim, tend to think that this one will point at the pilot…..0300 takeoff/landing at a remote field with lots of trees and swamps and few lights on both ends of the runway …. 5 adults in a nominal 4 place plane.
Just does not add up in the common sense category.
grumpy
do not archive
| Quote: | On Sep 18, 2015, at 7:05 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:
Although this is in no way an endorsement of flying overweight, I would
like to say that speculation of accidents, especially in the lowlands
of Georgia, is probably not going to be related to the overweight part.
CG perhaps, but with the performance the RV-10 has, I'm sure that
even at 300 or 400lbs over gross they'd still be outperforming your
average piper/cessna off that field. And if it was just slightly out
of aft CG, it would be unlikely that it would be a major issue as well.
The airplane gets very pitch sensitive at aft CG, but it would likely
have to be more then just a tiny bit aft, if it were the sole cause of
the accident. I do admit that when I heard "5 persons on board" I was
assuming one was a baby, and when seeing photos of those involved, it's
clear they were adults, so that does raise some eyebrows. But without
actually knowing the loading pattern and all, it's not worth speculating
too much. For all we know, the passenger stick was removable, and
someone sat on the co-pilots lap, which would almost definitely have
been enough to keep it in CG...and the lack of proper restraints could
have led to the delay in recognizing that there were 5 people on board.
That too is just head scratching speculation though. Once we hear
the NTSB report, we'll know a bit more I'm sure.
If you want to take comfort in one thing, keep this in mind. To date,
I know of no fatal accident in an RV-10 that was not caused by a
mistake that someone at the controls made. And, there have been a
fairly low number of fatals compared to many models of homebuilt.
We have, however, maintained a fairly steady rate of incident happening
ever since that first tragedy, so it's best we all keep these events
in the back of our own minds, lest we allow ourselves to do something
we shouldn't. Even if we cut the rate in half, I personally feel
we can do better.
Tim
On 9/18/2015 6:38 PM, Pascal wrote:
> Assuming that the weight 170 pilot/ 150 co-pilot and average of 150Lbs
> per person total of 450Lbs in the back, and 55 gallons, it also exceeds
> max weight. At or above max weight and aft of limits. Not a good
> situation at all
> (disclaimer-. I state this as a general statement and not AT ALL
> indicating that was the root of this or any accident)
> *From:* Jeff Carpenter <mailto:jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2015 2:28 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia
> I've been running the weight and balance with some assumed
> passenger/plane weights. It looks pretty easy with 5 adults to go aft cg
> as the fuel is reduced.
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> On Sep 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Rob Kochman wrote:
>
>> Interesting the FAA airman database shows he has a repairman
>> certificate but no pilot certificate.
>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com
>> <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> <philperry9(at)gmail.com <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>>
>>
>> Quite a few photos of the victims on Facebook this morning. 5
>> Adults.
>>
>> I noticed the fire chief too, but he's a Boatwright vs Boatright.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Sep 17, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Werner Schneider<glastar(at)gmx.net <mailto:glastar(at)gmx.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >2 small kids can count as one passenger depending on the weight..
>> >
>> >> On 17.09.2015 15:23, Carlos Trigowrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>What, 5 POB in an RV-10?
>> >>
>> >> CT
>> >>
>> >>Enviado do meu iPhone
>> >>
>> >> No dia 17/09/2015, às 14:12,"johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net
>> <mailto:johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>> escreveu:
>> >>
>> >>> -->RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman"
>> <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net <mailto:johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Date/Time: 9-16-2015 / 0715Z
>> >>>
>> >>> Location:4 miles East of Bacon County Airport (AMG) Alma, GA Near Highway
>> 32 and Mesquite Rd.
>> >>>
>> >>> Call Sign and TypeAircraft: N122WK, RV10
>> >>>
>> >>> Type of FlightRules: Unknown
>> >>>
>> >>> POB/Injuries orFatalities: 5 POB (unconfirmed)/Fatal
>> >>>
>> >>>--------
>> >>> #40572 Phase One complete in2011
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Read this topic online here:
>> >>>
>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447145#447145
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ==
>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ===========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ===========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rob Kochman
>> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
>> Woodinville, WA
>> http://kochman.net/N819K
>> *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
> Westcott Press
> 1121 Isabel Street
> Burbank, CA 91506
> jeff(at)westcottpress.com <mailto:jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
> 818-861-7300
>
>
>
> *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c *
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
|
|
I too do not feel cg or weight was the issue. I depart at gross wt and near our aft limit on landing. No problem controlling it. Sensitive yes. I would think that a severe aft cg problem would have had consequences at rotation, not 3.5 miles East. I am betting weather and a very thin waxing crescent moon had a factor in the loss of control. He flew towards town, the brighest area around. Time will tell. Flying without a certificate proves poor ADM to begin with, so it was just a matter of time. Unfortunately, we now have thousands more around the country that hate those dangerous little airplanes.
Tim, we did have one fatal in Texas that was undetermined...Mr. Ritter. The rest I agree on.
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20080317X00316&ntsbno=DFW08LA081&akey=1
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Wayne G. |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:34 pm Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
|
|
Wayne,
Sorry I'm going to write this without educating myself by reading that ntsb
report to refresh my memory, but I would even say that the Ritter one was
likely avoidable. From what I remember, he wasn't a young person, and he
was not feeling well that day and decided to fly home from a fly-in not
feeling well. We all know that you're not supposed to get in the plane when
you're not in condition to fly. There are days that just having a cold,
even
though you're not medicated, is reason to ground yourself. Heck, I even
take a leak in flight, any time I even have an inkling I may need to, before
I attempt an instrument approach in actual conditions. So to me, from
what I remember about that crash, it was likely avoidable. My guess is that
it was a medical issue, that nobody will ever know the answer to.
That is speculation, yes, but I don't think there was anything in the
crash that
pointed to the airplane, and there were things that pointed to health.
So I figure that one still at least in my mind, goes to pilot error in
some way.
It's funny, years and years ago when reading about crashes in magazines, I
noticed that they almost always started the sentence with the
official accident cause as "the pilot failed..." and at first, I was
kind of
offended by that. I mean, why always blame the pilot? But then I got
more flying experience, and I realized that it really *IS* that way.
You are
ultimately 100% responsible for the safety of your flight...not 99. You can
blame it on a gust of crosswind, or anything like that. Somewhere along the
way, the pilot failed. So now I've turned a full 180 and I basically
feel that
every accident is avoidable, if the pilot just does his job correctly.
I'll happily give a pass to the guy who has an engine out over the ocean,
or the Canadian/Alaskan wilderness, but in general, there is almost always
at least a good possibility of making a flight survivable.
All this jibber jabber reminds me of what was maybe my first IFR flight
after
getting my instrument ticket. I took a buddy for a short 15 mile IFR
flight,
and within a few seconds of getting into the clouds, a little of the
good kind
of paranoia came over me. I remember vividly thinking to myself ... "Well,
you got yourself into this...you took off, and now you're in it, and it
doesn't
matter that you're talking to ATC and it's a short flight....it's 100% up to
yourself to get this plane back on the ground with everyone alive."
It was pretty sobering, because at that point in time, I wasn't so sure
that even
though I had the ticket, I had the stuff. It was just one of those
humbling
times that I appreciated having.
Anyway, that is why I included the Ritter flight in the net that I cast
when I said
they were ALL pilot caused. I think it was just a poor choice to depart.
Tim
On 9/18/2015 9:48 PM, rv10flyer wrote:
| Quote: |
I too do not feel cg or weight was the issue. I depart at gross wt and near our aft limit on landing. No problem controlling it. Sensitive yes. I would think that a severe aft cg problem would have had consequences at rotation, not 3.5 miles East. I am betting weather and a very thin waxing crescent moon had a factor in the loss of control. He flew towards town, the brighest area around. Time will tell. Flying without a certificate proves poor ADM to begin with, so it was just a matter of time. Unfortunately, we now have thousands more around the country that hate those dangerous little airplanes.
Tim, we did have one fatal in Texas that was undetermined...Mr. Ritter. The rest I agree on.
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id 080317X00316&ntsbno=DFW08LA081&akey=1
--------
Wayne G.
|
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:18 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
|
|
Tim, I couldn't agree more. I look at all the 'famous' pilots that have
gone west prematurely and wonder what chance do I, a relatively baby
pilot, have to survive to a ripe old age. I bristled at the amount of
'pilot error' ...... how can this be? Like you I did the 180 and read
the NTSB accident reports so I can learn and, hopefully, prevent the
early demise.
If we take care of our airplanes, do real annuals, and fix the squawks
as they come up, then the chance of equipment failure goes way down.
That leaves the PIC as the largest failure point.
As for the Ritter NTSB report, which I read again, the glaring item to
me was the vertical descent at high speed (full power?) ..... he was no
longer in control of what was probably a 'flyable' airplane. Spacial
disorientation may have played a big part, I don't know.
Over the years I've lost a fair amount of friends, mostly to old age,
but some in aviation-related accidents. The latter mostly doing stupid
pilot tricks. I mourn them all, stupid or not, and pray that I don't
join that group.
Fly safe, weigh the odds of your launch decisions, and always think
about what the headlines may say about you.
Linn
On 9/19/2015 1:31 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
Wayne,
Sorry I'm going to write this without educating myself by reading that
ntsb
report to refresh my memory, but I would even say that the Ritter one was
likely avoidable. From what I remember, he wasn't a young person, and he
was not feeling well that day and decided to fly home from a fly-in not
feeling well. We all know that you're not supposed to get in the
plane when
you're not in condition to fly. There are days that just having a
cold, even
though you're not medicated, is reason to ground yourself. Heck, I even
take a leak in flight, any time I even have an inkling I may need to,
before
I attempt an instrument approach in actual conditions. So to me, from
what I remember about that crash, it was likely avoidable. My guess
is that
it was a medical issue, that nobody will ever know the answer to.
That is speculation, yes, but I don't think there was anything in the
crash that
pointed to the airplane, and there were things that pointed to health.
So I figure that one still at least in my mind, goes to pilot error in
some way.
It's funny, years and years ago when reading about crashes in
magazines, I
noticed that they almost always started the sentence with the
official accident cause as "the pilot failed..." and at first, I was
kind of
offended by that. I mean, why always blame the pilot? But then I got
more flying experience, and I realized that it really *IS* that way.
You are
ultimately 100% responsible for the safety of your flight...not 99.
You can
blame it on a gust of crosswind, or anything like that. Somewhere
along the
way, the pilot failed. So now I've turned a full 180 and I basically
feel that
every accident is avoidable, if the pilot just does his job correctly.
I'll happily give a pass to the guy who has an engine out over the ocean,
or the Canadian/Alaskan wilderness, but in general, there is almost
always
at least a good possibility of making a flight survivable.
All this jibber jabber reminds me of what was maybe my first IFR
flight after
getting my instrument ticket. I took a buddy for a short 15 mile IFR
flight,
and within a few seconds of getting into the clouds, a little of the
good kind
of paranoia came over me. I remember vividly thinking to myself ...
"Well,
you got yourself into this...you took off, and now you're in it, and
it doesn't
matter that you're talking to ATC and it's a short flight....it's 100%
up to
yourself to get this plane back on the ground with everyone alive."
It was pretty sobering, because at that point in time, I wasn't so
sure that even
though I had the ticket, I had the stuff. It was just one of those
humbling
times that I appreciated having.
Anyway, that is why I included the Ritter flight in the net that I
cast when I said
they were ALL pilot caused. I think it was just a poor choice to depart.
Tim
On 9/18/2015 9:48 PM, rv10flyer wrote:
>
>
> I too do not feel cg or weight was the issue. I depart at gross wt
> and near our aft limit on landing. No problem controlling it.
> Sensitive yes. I would think that a severe aft cg problem would have
> had consequences at rotation, not 3.5 miles East. I am betting
> weather and a very thin waxing crescent moon had a factor in the loss
> of control. He flew towards town, the brighest area around. Time will
> tell. Flying without a certificate proves poor ADM to begin with, so
> it was just a matter of time. Unfortunately, we now have thousands
> more around the country that hate those dangerous little airplanes.
>
> Tim, we did have one fatal in Texas that was undetermined...Mr.
> Ritter. The rest I agree on.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id 080317X00316&ntsbno=DFW08LA081&akey=1
> --------
> Wayne G.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
09/18/15
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