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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:51 pm Post subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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aircraft radio signals are vertically polarized.
Boyd On Nov 5, 2015 7:29 PM, "Dee LeBlanc" <leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)> wrote:[quote]I am currently installing an external antenna at the end of the wing (underneath). I did try the radio with the rubber duck antenna that came with the Icom A6 while on the ground and that provided a strong clear signal. I'm not running on ship’s power yet; using ICOM A6 battery and a 9 V battery in my intercom. Question: what is the function of a ground plane at the base of an antenna? I do have room to add a ground plane if that will be beneficial. Also, is the orientation of an external antenna important? RSVP
Thanks for all the advice,
Dee LeBlanc
leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)
cell [url=tel:225-802-1038]225-802-1038[/url]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That’s Why They Call it the Present
[quote]On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:44 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Dee, One thing to remember about antennae. Electrical ground and radio ground plane are not the same thing. I mounted my homemade antenna on the top of the nose cone with a six inch diameter piece of .025 aluminum inside the cone as the ground plane. ICT tower could hear me loud and clear as soon as I had line of sight from 28 miles and I could hear planes in the pattern at McPherson over 60 miles.When I flew the "plane from hell" home I had the same radio but with the rubber duck attached. Salina tower could not hear me at 6 miles.
The best place to get antenna advice is a local ham radio operator or club. Someone is almost sure to have an antenna analyzer that will help you tune your antenna for optimum performance.
Another good source is the Aeroelectric Connection right here on the Matronics Forums.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)>
and do not forget to ground the engine to the airframe..I use braided cable..Herb
On 11/04/2015 07:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
I have had an ICOM A6 in my MKIII for some time now. It is a really good little radio. I use a 24" stainless steel ELT antenna mounted under the nose cone attached through a sheet aluminum ground plane. I also use a 20,000 to 25,000 uf installed to the positive and negative output wires on the voltage reg/rec.
I frequently carry on conversations with Larry Cottrell's ICOM base station VHF at 75 to 80 sm.
I have used handheld radios, STS, Bendix/King KX-99, ICOM A-24 and A-6, in all three of my Kolbs. That is all I need to make the flights over the years from here to the Arctic Ocean.
Another item I use to reduce noise picked up in the cockpit is a leather mike muff with a small hole on each side. I can't remember where I got mine, but here is one very similar and a little less expensive:
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/10492
A good ground is absolutely essential for good performance.
john h
mkIII
hauck's holler, Alabama
--
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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:59 pm Post subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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The design on the link that I sent negates the ground plane ...Very simple and half wave in design.. Most designs are quarter wave... Herb
On 11/05/2015 09:48 PM, B Young wrote:
[quote]
effects the radiation pattern on both tx and receive. for best results the ground plane should be 1 to 2 times the length of the whip in diameter. it could be made of very thin metal,,, or could be 3 or more wires, like the spokes of a wheel. each between 1/2 to the length of the whip.
Boyd On Nov 5, 2015 7:29 PM, "Dee LeBlanc" <leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)> wrote: [quote] I am currently installing an external antenna at the end of the wing (underneath). I did try the radio with the rubber duck antenna that came with the Icom A6 while on the ground and that provided a strong clear signal. I'm not running on ship’s power yet; using ICOM A6 battery and a 9 V battery in my intercom. Question: what is the function of a ground plane at the base of an antenna? I do have room to add a ground plane if that will be beneficial. Also, is the orientation of an external antenna important? RSVP
Thanks for all the advice,
Dee LeBlanc
leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)
cell [url=tel:225-802-1038]225-802-1038[/url]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That’s Why They Call it the Present
[quote] On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:44 AM, Richard Girard <[url=mailto:aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com]aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)[/url]> wrote:
Dee, One thing to remember about antennae. Electrical ground and radio ground plane are not the same thing. I mounted my homemade antenna on the top of the nose cone with a six inch diameter piece of .025 aluminum inside the cone as the ground plane. ICT tower could hear me loud and clear as soon as I had line of sight from 28 miles and I could hear planes in the pattern at McPherson over 60 miles. When I flew the "plane from hell" home I had the same radio but with the rubber duck attached. Salina tower could not hear me at 6 miles.
The best place to get antenna advice is a local ham radio operator or club. Someone is almost sure to have an antenna analyzer that will help you tune your antenna for optimum performance.
Another good source is the Aeroelectric Connection right here on the Matronics Forums.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Herb <[url=mailto:Herbgh(at)nctc.com]Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)[/url]> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <[url=mailto:Herbgh(at)nctc.com]Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)[/url]>
and do not forget to ground the engine to the airframe..I use braided cable..Herb
On 11/04/2015 07:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
I have had an ICOM A6 in my MKIII for some time now. It is a really good little radio. I use a 24" stainless steel ELT antenna mounted under the nose cone attached through a sheet aluminum ground plane. I also use a 20,000 to 25,000 uf installed to the positive and negative output wires on the voltage reg/rec.
I frequently carry on conversations with Larry Cottrell's ICOM base station VHF at 75 to 80 sm.
I have used handheld radios, STS, Bendix/King KX-99, ICOM A-24 and A-6, in all three of my Kolbs. That is all I need to make the flights over the years from here to the Arctic Ocean.
Another item I use to reduce noise picked up in the cockpit is a leather mike muff with a small hole on each side. I can't remember where I got mine, but here is one very similar and a little less expensive:
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/10492
A good ground is absolutely essential for good performance.
john h
mkIII
hauck's holler, Alabama
--
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gliderx5
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:42 am Post subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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Dee
I had a similar problem with my Icom A6. After some research I found that the A6 (or at least some of them) have a bug in how the transmit works that is not obvious. It turns out that keying the mic using the button on the side of the radio activates the mic on the radio, not the mic on the headset. To use the mic on the headset you must hook up a remote mic PTT through the headset adapter. The symptoms that we noticed were that the radio appeared to transmit fine with the engine off, but with the engine on the transmission was mostly static because your mouth was too far from the mic and the engine noise was louder than your voice. We found that if you spoke directly into the radio mic the transmission was fine. Adding the remote PTT solved this issue. Sometimes an intercom can mask this problem. I'm not sure if this is your issue but it sounds similar.
Malcolm Morrison
http://www.wienerdogaero.com
From: "Dee One" <leblancds(at)cox.net>
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 2:51:16 PM
Subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dee One" <leblancds(at)cox.net>
Well, after six months of totally rebuilding my Mark 3, I completed the annual inspection, Test flight, I now have a couple hours on the new engine and rebuild airframe.
My airport(L 3 is fairly busy… so I purchased two headsets, Intercom, and a ICOM A6 handheld. The problem is that my transmissions are weak and barely readable. I have no experience with handheld radios. How can I remedy this problem? Your experience and recommendations are appreciated.
I am thinking that I will need a remote antenna of some sort. I also understand that it is best to install a remote antenna as for away from the engine (Rotax582)as possible.
Thanks for your recommendations,
Dee
--------
The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That’s Why They Call it the Present
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448719#448719
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Dee One
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:03 am Post subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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Thanks for your input; but my issue occurred utilizing a push to talk. I'm currently installing an external antenna per suggestions from Boyd Young and others.
Thanks, Dee LeBlanc
leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)
cell 225-802-1038
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That’s Why They Call it the Present
| Quote: | On Nov 6, 2015, at 5:26 AM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net (gliderx5(at)comcast.net) wrote:
Dee
I had a similar problem with my Icom A6. After some research I found that the A6 (or at least some of them) have a bug in how the transmit works that is not obvious. It turns out that keying the mic using the button on the side of the radio activates the mic on the radio, not the mic on the headset. To use the mic on the headset you must hook up a remote mic PTT through the headset adapter. The symptoms that we noticed were that the radio appeared to transmit fine with the engine off, but with the engine on the transmission was mostly static because your mouth was too far from the mic and the engine noise was louder than your voice. We found that if you spoke directly into the radio mic the transmission was fine. Adding the remote PTT solved this issue. Sometimes an intercom can mask this problem. I'm not sure if this is your issue but it sounds similar.
Malcolm Morrison
http://www.wienerdogaero.com
From: "Dee One" <leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)>To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 2:51:16 PMSubject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dee One" <leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)>
Well, after six months of totally rebuilding my Mark 3, I completed the annual inspection, Test flight, I now have a couple hours on the new engine and rebuild airframe.
My airport(L 3 is fairly busy… so I purchased two headsets, Intercom, and a ICOM A6 handheld. The problem is that my transmissions are weak and barely readable. I have no experience with handheld radios. How can I remedy this problem? Your experience and recommendations are appreciated.
I am thinking that I will need a remote antenna of some sort. I also understand that it is best to install a remote antenna as for away from the engine (Rotax582)as possible.
Thanks for your recommendations,Dee
--------The Past is HistoryThe Future is a MysteryToday is a GiftThat’s Why They Call it the Present
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448719#448719
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The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That’s Why They Call it the Present |
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Rex Rodebush
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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Yes, the "chokes" I bought at Radio Shack do look like little transformers. They come in various sizes to accommodate various cable diameters. You run the cable through the center. I think they also recommend you loop the cable several times through the choke if you can. Don't remember the cost but it wasn't much.
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:21 am Post subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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Dee, Everything you need to know.
http://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/aircraft-antenna-2.php
Rick
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Dee LeBlanc <leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote]I am currently installing an external antenna at the end of the wing (underneath). I did try the radio with the rubber duck antenna that came with the Icom A6 while on the ground and that provided a strong clear signal. I'm not running on ship’s power yet; using ICOM A6 battery and a 9 V battery in my intercom. Question: what is the function of a ground plane at the base of an antenna? I do have room to add a ground plane if that will be beneficial. Also, is the orientation of an external antenna important? RSVP
Thanks for all the advice,
Dee LeBlanc
leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)
cell [url=tel:225-802-1038]225-802-1038[/url]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That’s Why They Call it the Present
[quote]On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:44 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Dee, One thing to remember about antennae. Electrical ground and radio ground plane are not the same thing. I mounted my homemade antenna on the top of the nose cone with a six inch diameter piece of .025 aluminum inside the cone as the ground plane. ICT tower could hear me loud and clear as soon as I had line of sight from 28 miles and I could hear planes in the pattern at McPherson over 60 miles.When I flew the "plane from hell" home I had the same radio but with the rubber duck attached. Salina tower could not hear me at 6 miles.
The best place to get antenna advice is a local ham radio operator or club. Someone is almost sure to have an antenna analyzer that will help you tune your antenna for optimum performance.
Another good source is the Aeroelectric Connection right here on the Matronics Forums.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)>
and do not forget to ground the engine to the airframe..I use braided cable..Herb
On 11/04/2015 07:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
I have had an ICOM A6 in my MKIII for some time now. It is a really good little radio. I use a 24" stainless steel ELT antenna mounted under the nose cone attached through a sheet aluminum ground plane. I also use a 20,000 to 25,000 uf installed to the positive and negative output wires on the voltage reg/rec.
I frequently carry on conversations with Larry Cottrell's ICOM base station VHF at 75 to 80 sm.
I have used handheld radios, STS, Bendix/King KX-99, ICOM A-24 and A-6, in all three of my Kolbs. That is all I need to make the flights over the years from here to the Arctic Ocean.
Another item I use to reduce noise picked up in the cockpit is a leather mike muff with a small hole on each side. I can't remember where I got mine, but here is one very similar and a little less expensive:
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/10492
A good ground is absolutely essential for good performance.
john h
mkIII
hauck's holler, Alabama
--
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:54 pm Post subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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Welll... I'd have to question the 'everything' part of that statement. 
Dee,
The external antenna may well solve all your problems, but it's doubtful, based on the limited info presented. If the icom works ok with the stock antenna & engine off, that tells you the radio 'system' is working ok, at least when it comes to the antenna issue.
You still need to know what your transmissions actually sound like when you're fully operational. If it's noise masking your voice, you next need to know whether it's simple audio noise, or if it's electrical noise being generated by, 1: a/c ignition, 2: engine's alternator, 3: something else.
You mention an intercom in the mix. That suggests another test: with/without the intercom in the mix.
On the antenna/ground plane subject: Your test with engine off & stock rubber ducky proves that you don't 'need' a ground plane. But, (big but), a quarter-wave antenna, the ~22" length you're talking about using, will work a lot better with a ground plane. The ground plane (we're wading off into 'black magic' territory for us mere mortals) helps control the impedance of the antenna (affecting SWR, standing wave ratio) and just as or more important, the 'pattern' of the antenna and its gain. Here's a link to 'whip' antennas (quarter wave without ground plane):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whip_antenna
But I suspect that your wing mount antenna won't fix your problem, with or without a ground plane, unless your problem is radiated ignition noise, and moving out on the wing gets it far enough away from the engine to minimize effects.
Charlie
On 11/6/2015 10:21 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote] Dee, Everything you need to know.
http://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/aircraft-antenna-2.php
Rick
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Dee LeBlanc <leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] I am currently installing an external antenna at the end of the wing (underneath). I did try the radio with the rubber duck antenna that came with the Icom A6 while on the ground and that provided a strong clear signal. I'm not running on ship’s power yet; using ICOM A6 battery and a 9 V battery in my intercom. Question: what is the function of a ground plane at the base of an antenna? I do have room to add a ground plane if that will be beneficial. Also, is the orientation of an external antenna important? RSVP
Thanks for all the advice,
Dee LeBlanc
leblancds(at)cox.net (leblancds(at)cox.net)
cell [url=tel:225-802-1038]225-802-1038[/url]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That’s Why They Call it the Present
[quote] On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:44 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Dee, One thing to remember about antennae. Electrical ground and radio ground plane are not the same thing. I mounted my homemade antenna on the top of the nose cone with a six inch diameter piece of .025 aluminum inside the cone as the ground plane. ICT tower could hear me loud and clear as soon as I had line of sight from 28 miles and I could hear planes in the pattern at McPherson over 60 miles. When I flew the "plane from hell" home I had the same radio but with the rubber duck attached. Salina tower could not hear me at 6 miles.
The best place to get antenna advice is a local ham radio operator or club. Someone is almost sure to have an antenna analyzer that will help you tune your antenna for optimum performance.
Another good source is the Aeroelectric Connection right here on the Matronics Forums.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Herb <[url=mailto:Herbgh(at)nctc.com]Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)[/url]> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <[url=mailto:Herbgh(at)nctc.com]Herbgh(at)nctc.com (Herbgh(at)nctc.com)[/url]>
and do not forget to ground the engine to the airframe..I use braided cable..Herb
On 11/04/2015 07:56 PM, John Hauck wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
I have had an ICOM A6 in my MKIII for some time now. It is a really good little radio. I use a 24" stainless steel ELT antenna mounted under the nose cone attached through a sheet aluminum ground plane. I also use a 20,000 to 25,000 uf installed to the positive and negative output wires on the voltage reg/rec.
I frequently carry on conversations with Larry Cottrell's ICOM base station VHF at 75 to 80 sm.
I have used handheld radios, STS, Bendix/King KX-99, ICOM A-24 and A-6, in all three of my Kolbs. That is all I need to make the flights over the years from here to the Arctic Ocean.
Another item I use to reduce noise picked up in the cockpit is a leather mike muff with a small hole on each side. I can't remember where I got mine, but here is one very similar and a little less expensive:
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/10492
A good ground is absolutely essential for good performance.
john h
mkIII
hauck's holler, Alabama
--
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Eugene Zimmerman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:39 am Post subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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| Quote: | On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:17 AM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
Lots of good advice, nothing to add in that area. Here are some pictures of how I made my antenna and where I put it.
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Richard, just a suggestion.
I noticed one thing that I would not be comfortable with in the picture of your battery mount.
That is the hose clamp battery hold down.
That setup puts a ground source much too close to the positive battery terminal in my opinion.
Any stray tool, or metal object could very easily cause a very serious electrical short circuit.
I’d much prefer using a heavy plastic zip tie or two, in place of the hose clamp,which is what I actually use.
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baberdk
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 53
Location: East Moline, Il
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:53 am Post subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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Would it work to put shrink tubing over the stainless steel clamp? That way you have the security of stainless with insulation covering.Respectfully,
Dennis Baber
baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)
Receive gracefully and share; that's all there is.
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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| Eugene Zimmerman wrote: | | Quote: | On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:17 AM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron> wrote:
Lots of good advice, nothing to add in that area. Here are some pictures of how I made my antenna and where I put it.
|
Richard, just a suggestion.
I noticed one thing that I would not be comfortable with in the picture of your battery mount.
That is the hose clamp battery hold down.
That setup puts a ground source much too close to the positive battery terminal in my opinion.
Any stray tool, or metal object could very easily cause a very serious electrical short circuit.
I’d much prefer using a heavy plastic zip tie or two, in place of the hose clamp,which is what I actually use. |
Great idea. Even better, I have some long velcro straps that will fit all the way around, and the battery is light enough that one will be plenty strong enough. Thanks!
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:53 am Post subject: Handheld Radio Performance Issue |
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you could go to the plumbing or hardware store and get some clear plastic tube. thin wall, ( it should be more resistant to puncture than heat shrink) slide it over the clamp,,, when you tighten it, put the adjustment screw as far away from the terminals as possible
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