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3edcft6(at)cox.net
Guest
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 Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Joseph Larson wrote:
| Quote: | Electric cars -- it is presumed that electricity can be created far
more cleanly than burning fossil fuels. Even relatively dirty
electrical generation (such as coal) is still probably cleaner due to
the high technology used to scrub the pollutants.
Of course large electric plants can create energy more cleanly than a
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car engine can, with the technology we have today coal plants probably
are cleaner too. Clean doesn't mean ZERO emissions, which is what
people often call electric vehicles. Right now, out side of very
physically small urban areas like NYC, electric vehicles are not even
close to practical. Someday they just might be, but only time will tell.
| Quote: | Even wind turbines have negative effects from bird strikes. And some
people think that's sufficient to shut them down. I disagree.
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I'm glad you disagree, because that is exactly the kind of thing an
environmental wacko would say. I would be willing to bet that on the
average day, more birds a killed at major airports in the USA than by
every wind mill in the world in a year. I would also be surprised if
the dangers to birds from wind mills is even statistically measurable
(meaning there is so little of it that the sample size is too small for
meaningful statistics) I would also bet there are birds having fun
flying circles around the blades of wind mills right now. Another good
example of environmental wackos, is when it comes to solar electricity.
There is such a huge push for solar electric panels in parts of the
country, but they are so costly and inefficient that they aren't
practical, except in rare situations. Now that the technology exists to
make efficient stiling engines that can be placed at the center of a
parabolic mirror to concentrate enough sun light to turn the engine and
generate electricity. Even that isn't good enough for the environmental
wackos because of all that precious land in the desert covered by the
mirrors.
As I said before I believe most environmentalists are NOT wackos but it
is obvious from the projects that get the most attention and the
projects that get opposed, that the vocal minority of environmentalists
are wacko. There are good ideas that not only help the environment,
they help the pocket book. If people were serious about the environment
they would be pushing those ideas first. The one that literally baffles
me is why solar heat isn't pushed harder. In most or all of, TX, OK,
AZ, NM,CA, NV, UT, ID, CO, WY and maybe KS, you could provide over 90%
of your heating needs with solar. Unlike solar electric panels, the
solar heating system installed in a new home would pay for it's self in
less than 5 years. After which 90+% of your heat would be free.
do not archive
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
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3edcft6(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Chris W wrote:
| Quote: | . . . there are birds having fun flying circles around the blades of
wind mills . . .
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Let me rephrase that.
I bet there are birds flying circles around the blades of wind mills
right now, laughing at people who think it is a danger to them.
do not archive
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
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jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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I suspect the problem windmills are the smaller ones with blades that
turn very quickly. Larger windmills with slower-turning blades may
be less of a danger. But I don't know. I haven't talked to anyone
who is actually scientifically knowledgeable on the subject.
-Joe
On Jul 5, 2006, at 7:58 PM, Chris W wrote:
| Quote: |
Chris W wrote:
> . . . there are birds having fun flying circles around the blades
> of wind mills . . .
Let me rephrase that.
I bet there are birds flying circles around the blades of wind
mills right now, laughing at people who think it is a danger to them.
do not archive
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
wiki.matronics.com
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rv8a2001(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Lets take it one step further, do these environmentalists have kids? Just think how much pollution those kids will cause in there life time!
Larry Pardue <n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.com> wrote: [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue
I notice that there are listers that do profess to be
environmentalists. Now I know if you do profess this there are
different possible levels, but since this is an RV list I am curious
about it.
An RV is generally built to have fun with. Most trips are strictly
for entertainment and almost no one really needs the RV. So here we
are burning lots of irreplaceable fossil fuel, loaded with poisonous
lead and with no emissions controls whatever, not to mention things
like mufflers. This is all basically just for the thrill of it.
Sometimes we just go out and do aerobatics or formation flying or
sightseeing or photography, in which case we aren't even getting
anywhere.
I'm reminded of the time all the folks at the local glider club were
sitting around after a day of flying. We could hear the dragsters at
the local dragstrip. One of the glider pilots remarked about what a
stupid hobby that is. They just spend money, burn fuel and don't
even get anywhere. This is at the end of a day using expensive
airplanes, burning lots of gas to tow unbelievably expensive german
gliders into the air in order to fly in circles and land back at the
launch point.
I think sometimes it is hard to have perspective on our own hobby.
I am worried about resources, animals, conservation, pollution and
like things, but sure don't have the guts to call myself an
environmentalist while owning a pollution spewing airplane that I
sure don't need.
So how about it? How
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low pass
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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The whole pop-culture enviro movement is based upon mainly JUNK science and ulterior motives. Global warming, my eye! What caused the previous warming cycles of the last million years? Dinosaur flatulence? So we need to reduce dependence upon foreign oil? How about opening up coastal exploration?! It's too destructive for the US to drill off the Florida coast, but not for Cuba and China to drill there.
I'm an engineer. A real one with a degree, a license and experience in petroleum refining. If you enviros really want to get off petroleum, then you'll have to wait about 10-20 years while we BUILD about 200 NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS!!! But we can't do that because it's such an evil danger!! You know - like the world ending with all the "Three Mile Islands" that were destined to end the world.
So now our existing gasoline production is further bastardized with this foolish ethanol fantasy. You want to know why gasoline costs $3.15 a gallon? In part due to ethanol, part due to the illogical and inane efforts of the EPA and their 50+ formulations of gasoline mandated across the US.
I'm also a naturalist. I like trees, clean water, air, birds and fish. But there's a big difference between a naturalist and an enviro whacko. It's called logic and science, and a lot less Algore hype-fiction.
Chrisw - To answer your question about heat/solar in the south/southwest. We don't need heat!! Trust me on this. We need COLD. And to get to cold from heat, you need an efficient conversion mechanism. Photovoltaic isn't there yet. But with $75/bbl oil & $12 NG, it's getting there! Would take billions of cells and hundreds of $$ billions before even beginning to generate appreciable power.
How about solar furnaces, absorption chilling or other similar technologies? Possible, just not economically viable today on a large scale.
So why do the enviros want to prohibit use of petroleum through restricted drilling, restricted refining, displacement with ethanol? Read plank 6 of the Communist Manifesto.
Bryan Jones
Houston
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Last edited by low pass on Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ogoodwin(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Why does it have to be all or nothing? It seems some believe if you're an environmentalist you have to be a tree hugging, ski lift burning, tree spiking, anti hunting, anti human life flake. If you're a Republican or conservative, you have to want to destroy the earth to make 27 cents. I don't understand this mindset. I and most of my friends fall somewhere in the between. I want electricity to refrigerate my food, I want fuel for my truck so I can enjoy the natural (more or less) environment that I try to protect. I fly, hunt, fish, and pick up my trash. I try to avoid using too much water, and I don't dump my oil on the ground. I think there are ways to have modern life without destroying the earth, and protect the environment without moving back into a cave. As far as I'm concerned, both drag racing and recreational flying are just fine. Neither is going to cause the end of life as we know it. To lump all self professed "environmentalists" and "Republicans" (for example) in with the extreme ends of each group does a disservice to those that actually do have a position based on something besides emotion.
IMHO, the whackos (and there are some, on both sides) have hijacked the term "environmentalist" from those who really do care about the environment. I think lots of those people (the whackos) don't care so much about the environment as they need a cause. If the environmental cause went away, they'd move to another, such as gun control, peace at all costs, XXXX (pick a term) rights, and so forth.
do not archive.
---
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3edcft6(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
| Quote: | Quit worry about whether or not you fit into someone's label and start
worrying about building a gas guzzling airplane! Can we get back on
subject now.
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RV planes aren't gas guzzlers! At 8000 ft on an economy cruise setting
you get over 24 mpg (assuming no head wind) I would say that's pretty
good. Fly at 10,000ft or 11,000ft and you get even better millage.
That's better than I get in my Ford Ranger. It's only about 6 mpg away
from what some call a high millage for cars. My 24 mpg figure was based
on the range listed on Van's website for an RV-7 at 55% power with the
160 hp engine.
do not archive.
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
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rv9jim(at)juno.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Terry,
Well put, as the noise makers are beginning to take over the
rational thinking individuals who just quietly go about their business.
Some people think they know the answer but have not researched for the
FACTS before they open their mouths. Nuff said--- Lets get back to
building our little planes and have some fun.
Jim Nelson
do not archive
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c.ennis(at)insightbb.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Bryan,
Let me say, I agree with you...I work for a manufacturing facility which
employs an environmental engineer, a real one with a degree ;}. He and I
have had several discussions about this very subject. His take is, an
environmental engineer, knows but doesn't care, while an environmentalist,
cares but doesn't know. A bit tongue in cheek but a good point, all the
same. Everyone has opinions and "feelings" about the environment. The
emotional among us "feel" that someone should be doing
something about it, generally based, on as you say JUNK, science. I like to
think, key word think, as opposed to feel, that based on my limited
education on the subject, that we may be into a natural warming cycle which
we can not possibly have any control over. Sure we could go back to the
horse and buggy days on the slim chance the wackos are right. I have grown
really fond of the modern lifestyle. I have been living with electricity,
furnaces, plastics, hot-running water and the ability to travel over 30
miles on any given day...the list goes on and on. Maybe we could be
selective as to what we would be willing to give up. Wouldn't that make for
an interesting discussion on the beltway. Yes sir, we could all go back to
the pre-petroleum days, that would be around 1885 or so...hold it, every
one would have to live within walking distance of work, farming, logging or
manufacturing in the urban areas. Yes sir a whole economy based on WOOD
for an energy source. Seems to me that we have a little trouble in that area
too. By the way a very large part of our population depends on the
automotive/patroleum industry for their livelyhood, perhaps they would be
willing to throw themselves on their swords in order to reduce our
population numbers to a more convenient level?
OK, so we are doomed to be living on a slowly dying planet, it seems to me,
that, all things considered, nature functions in a life and death cycle. Get
used to it. If we could function on solar energy alone, we would still
eventually cease to exist. It seems the sun is consuming itself also.
Meanwhile, back in realityville, why don't we all continue to breed (our
sole purpose for being alive) and continue to enjoy the things we have
created for our comfort and convinence for the rest of the time nature lets
us.
Really sorry about the rant, guys, occasionally I find myself boiling over
on this subject.
Charlie
RV-6A 60 hrs. since first flight.
Pls. Do Not Archive
---
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
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bertrv6(at)highstream.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Quoting Chuck Jensen <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>:
[quote]
Tsk, tsk. Shame on people who listen to Enviro-wackos who do stupid
stuff like listen to scientists. You won't catch me consulting those
Ivy Tower Egg-Heads. I get all my facts from Rush Limbaugh, so I know
it's the straight scoop.
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive
> --
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
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lm4(at)juno.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Dean,
The United states produces about 60% of the world's Co2.
This comes from cars, trucks and furnaces and it is a big deal.
Co(at) reflects the suns long wave radiations back into space
and contributes greatly to global warming. It also mixes well
with sulfur dioxide to form smog. Think Los Angelas. I agree
with everything else you wrote. It would seem the
environmentalists are quick to complain about things and want
quick answers but are not willing to do the required studies to
come up with responsible alternatives.
Larry Mac Donald
lm4(at)juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not achcive
On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 01:09:19 -0400 "DEAN PSIROPOULOS"
<dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> writes:
| Quote: |
<dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
, if we had the "perfect" energy source that's fully
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| Quote: | renewable and generates no toxic waste products or
CO2 (I don't consider CO2 a hazard to our planets
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health) they would still find something
"evil" about it!
| Quote: |
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
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flyby41(at)earthlink.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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With no disrespect intended to anyone.... man made global warming is a
farce I believe.....
"Carbon dioxide does occur naturally, of course, and is essential to
life on Earth, as it is an essential chemical component in the
photosynthesis process of plants."
"When Mount Pinatubo erupted it pumped more CO2 into the atmosphere than
humans did in the entire industrial age. The concern over anthropogenic CO2
emmissions is politics dressed up as science."
http://climatesci.atmos.colostate.edu/2005/08/09/is-co2-a-pollutant/
| Quote: | The United states produces about 60% of the world's Co2.
This comes from cars, trucks and furnaces and it is a big deal.
Co(at) reflects the suns long wave radiations back into space
and contributes greatly to global warming.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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| Quote: | [Original Message]
From: Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com>
To: <rv-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: 7/9/2006 8:57:54 AM
Subject: Re: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol
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rv8ch
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Vincent Osburn wrote:
| Quote: | With no disrespect intended to anyone.... man made global warming is a
farce I believe.....
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There were a lot of naysayers in the 60s and 70s about the effects
of smoking, too.
Just look at the money behind the people that say that global
warming is not real. Don't believe what anyone says, check out
the facts for yourself. The truth is out there!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
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_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/ |
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ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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| Quote: | The United states produces about 60% of the world's Co2.
This comes from cars, trucks and furnaces and it is a big deal.
Co(at) reflects the suns long wave radiations back into space
and contributes greatly to global warming.
|
Nothing personal but anyone who touts the "global warming" crisis
and does not take into account the natural variation in Earth's temperature
is not credible. Besides, don't plant consume CO2?
Ron Lee
Do not archive
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T.gummo(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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I tried to stay out of this BUT ...
First, I am over 55+ old.
Second, I am a trained Chemist and Computer Scientists. (Subjects with my
masters degrees)
I also built a Harmon Rocket. (This is the RV-List)
I teach chemistry, math and computer science at two local colleges.
After reading tons of stuff on the subject, I realize that I KNOW NOTHING
ABOUT IT.
I really think that scientists are in two camps: the first is the side that
is paying them (Follow the money, just like several people have stated) and
others are in the side that will get them money. If there is NO problem,
there is NO money. If you can make it look like there is a problem, money
will be thrown at you. Why is it in the newspapers, No problem - NO NEWS.
Problem - BIG NEWS. You only really hear from the "Problem" folks.
The other two camps are metal planes verse plastic ones (this is the
RV-List).
Why do I bring up my age: in the 60's and 70's and maybe even the early
80's. All I heard was about global cooling and the coming ice age. Now
scientists using the SAME DATA are telling us that it is global warning.
The book the "Population Bomb" stated that we would be living shoulder to
shoulder by now. Funny, I don't hear anything about it anymore. The OZONE
hole got bigger and smaller without any help from mankind in the past.
What about constant speed props compared to fix pitch (this is the RV-list).
If the earth is getting warmer, could it be the sun is getting hotter. Look
it up, the sun goes through cycles too and we are in a period where it is
hotter. If that is the case, could it the sun and have nothing to do with
mankind that there maybe a world wide temperature change.
What about tandem verse side by side seating (this is the RV-List).
What about the fact, that the earth has had several ice ages. That means it
got cold then it got warn then it got cold and then it got warm .... Once
again, mankind wasn't able to change the cycle or better yet create one.
But Van can and does produce a great series of kits (This is the RV-List).
Take another case, what if it was a good idea to melt all the polar ice. Go
find a scientist that could find a way to do it. CAN'T BE DONE with current
technology. So why do you think my car and plane will do it?
AOA, required or just a nice toy (This is the RV-List).
IS THERE A PROBLEM?: MAYBE. Should we try to be NICER to the planet: YOU
BET.
But anybody who claims to know is full of sh_t.
Of course, this is just one slightly educated man's opinion, who also built
a Harmon Rocket (This is the RV-List).
What next:
Abortion - Pro-Life
Tax Cuts for the Rich
War - Antiwar
that list is too long.
I am too old to be climbing on and off the soapbox.  If you clearly
want to take exception to anything I wrote, PLEASE email directly. As most
likely, I will be deleting any more emails on this subject on the RV-List
without reading them.
Can we talk about flying or building RVs again? I even have some fun F-4
stories that would be closer to the subject of this mailing list than this
rubbish. (OF COURSE, THIS IS THE RV-LIST).
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
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tcervin(at)valkyrie.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Agree, and one other small problem. The 28 active volcanoes account for
better than 77% of the worlds Co2 and are a primary reason the earth has
cooled and heated for about 80 cycles according to ice core samples. If all
man/animal made Co2 were eliminated (not feasible since we must breath) you
would still need to handle the other 90% Plus of the contributor's.....again
not feasible by today's technology.
Ohio was once a tropical swamp and despite all the "Emotional Rhetoric"
could very well be again due to the "NORMAL Cycle" the earth continues to go
through. By the way any solution for the Super Nova of our Sun in just a few
Billion YEARS?
DO NOT ARCHIVE Tom in Ohio
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ogoodwin(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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So...are you saying there is no natural fluctuation of the earth's climate?
The Sahara was farm country a few thousand years ago and turned desert way
before the machine age, and even before the human population explosion
occurred. What about the redwood cones found above the arctic circle? I
don't say emissions of various kinds have NO effect, but how can the events
(volcanic and otherwise) that produce far more CO2 than decades of man made
emissions be discounted? I'm curious also how we can presume to know the
average temperature of a point on the earth's surface when records have been
kept for only a hundred years or so. Is it the same kind of science that
can build a complete culture from a couple of knife points and a molar?
No offense, but it seems the science that's out there is pretty selectively
chosen by the supporters of the current global warming theory. There's lots
that point the other way, too.
The people pushing the global warming theory aren't exactly operating out of
the back of a VW bus, either. There's plenty of money on both sides and
people on both sides making a living advocating their particular position.
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ogoodwin(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: Fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol |
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Thank you, Tom Gummo. Excellent post and many points made.
---
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