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Dynon on Corvair engine
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dave.thompson(at)verizon.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:55 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

Larry,  

   

For what it’s worth, if you’re going to install a Corvair in you’re aircraft; I truly hope that you are following William Wynne’s advice on your build. He has the most experience with the engine.  

   

I had a face to face conversation with William regarding engine instrumentation a year or so ago. His theories made a lot of sense. He advocates using mechanical engine instruments. The primary reason is that they are immune to electrical system failures. With a total electrical system failure, running the engine on just the battery, his tests show that the ignition will run the engine down to I believe 9 volts (Don’t quote me on that number). Anyway, the point is; you’ll have a long time of full power to get yourself to an airport. With mechanical instruments, you will have less to worry about knowing what the engine is doing. He specifically mentioned that the Dynon units connect directly to the ignition. He cautions against instruments that might “wig-out” and short out the ignition system which will, of course stop the engine.  

   

I personally agree with the above. However, I sure like the looks of a glass panel. If you decide on the Dynon, or any other electronic engine instrumentation you might consider installing “Idiot Lights” just in case the Dynon decides to misbehave. Easy lamps to install could be: Oil Temp, Oil Pressure, Alternator and CHT (use the stock lamp sender). A back-up tach might also be handy. Check out the link below for some cool panel lamps with legends.   

   

http://www.k-four.net/catform.htm  

   

Check out pages 7, 10 and especially page 15 of their catalog. I’ve purchased many switches and lamps from them through the years and they carry great quality stuff. Of course, I’m sure that you know; don’t use their wire or crimps on an aircraft.  

   

As for senders, my experience is with cars & boats but they are all engines. What you’ll need is the proper sender for the indicating device. What I mean is for instance, an oil pressure sender will turn on at a specific pressure (typically published with the unit) sending ground to a lamp. An electrical instrument sender will send a varying resistance to ground.  That varying resistance is read by the instrument. If the instrument and sender are not calibrated to each other, the indication will not be correct.   

   

As long as the sender is correct for the indicator, your only problem may be appropriate threaded holes at the right location on the engine for that sender. Be sure that the oil temp sender is down in the flow of heated oil. I nearly burnt up my ‘64 Corvair convertible engine back in high school. I put a sender up on a pipe post and a “T”. Most of the hot oil bypassed the pipe & “T” giving me erroneous instrument temp readings.  

   

I suggest you also look into some type of inductive or magnetic tach sender to divorce the Dynon unit from the ignition system. I haven’t studied enough to properly advise you on what to try.  

   

Using advice from William, I plan to use Autometer Z-series mechanical instruments (see the link below). I will also have an “idiot light” over most instruments. I’m considering the Dynon EFIS-D10A for flight instrumentation only. That way I will have the best of both worlds. William said something like “its ironic using auto instruments on an auto conversion flight engine.”  

   

http://autometer.com/cat_gaugeseries.aspx  

   

I called the Autometer factory and they said that if they don’t have an instrument in a particular series but do in another of the same size, they can custom make an instrument for a minimal charge.  

   

That’s my two cents worth, take it or leave it.  

   

Dave Thompson  

dave.thompson(at)verizon.net (dave.thompson(at)verizon.net)  

Westminster, CA

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine

First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you would still have access to the engine instruments should your electrical system fail.



Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail the ignition system. Though I  might be wrong and will conceed the point if someone could explain it to me.



That said, I've had tachs go out and completed the flight with no problem. I'd be much more concerned with the loss of ALT and AS. But since I plan to have a 396 in the panel as well I feel its vitual panel will be an acceptable back-up for the Dynon unit given the type of flying I plan to do.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:55 am    Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine   



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Larry, 

? 

For what itâ€™s worth, if youâ€™re going to install a Corvair in youâ€™re aircraft; I truly hope that you are following William Wynneâ€™s advice on your build. He has the most experience with the engine. 

? 

I had a face to face conversation with William regarding engine instrumentation a year or so ago. His theories made a lot of sense. He advocates using mechanical engine instruments. The primary reason is that they are immune to electrical system failures. With a total electrical system failure, running the engine on just the battery, his tests show that the ignition will run the engine down to I believe 9 volts (Donâ€™t quote me on that number). Anyway, the point is; youâ€™ll have a long time of full power to get yourself to an airport. With mechanical instruments, you will have less to worry about knowing what the engine is doing. He specifically mentioned that the Dynon units connect directly to the ignition. He cautions against instruments that might â€œwig-outâ€ and short out the ignition system which will, of course stop the engine.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

planejim(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

List,



I seem to remember that many years ago some of the VW powered homebuilts 

were using a certain type ( I think it was Westach - could be wrong here ) 

of tach that were prone to shorting out someway and killing the 

ignition.Some airplanes went down because of it. I don't know any of the 

technical details so I can't help there. Just something that came to mind. 

Everybody be carefull!



Jim Hoak



---

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

A tach could easily kill an ignition...All it has to do is short the

signal wire to ground and that ign will stop working.



Frank 



--

Michael Valentine

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 108

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

I attended Corvair College #9 and was certainly impressed with the passion and professionalism of William and his group.  However, I met people there that felt that electronics were not William's strong suit.  In part, I think this feeling arose because he was unwilling or chose not to consider that many people seriously want to use electronic instruments and engine information systems.  In part, William does not seem to consider the investment in a glass panel to be economically worthwhile for our light sporty and primarily VFR planes.

 

 Although I understand his personal philosophy, I do not share it.  I certainly want a glass panel and modern electronic instrument information/analysis systems.  I also know that many Corvair users have installed such systems - at least as to the EIS, if not the actual primary flight instruments.

 

 Ultimately, I think the key is to understand how your system works and to make the personal choice of how you want to balance your priorities.  There is no question that the Dynon can be used.  It is simply up to us builders to install it in such a way that we understand the possible failures and choose to accept (or not) those risks.

 

 Michael Valentine

 (Admittedly no where near the stage that any of this directly affects me yet!)



On 7/6/06, Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)cox.net  (wr.giacona(at)cox.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" < wr.giacona(at)cox.net (wr.giacona(at)cox.net)>



First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you would still have access to the engine instruments should your electrical system fail.



Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail the ignition system. Though I  might be wrong and will conceed the point if someone could explain it to me.

 	  Quote: 	
		    Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:55 am    Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine



 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 



 Larry,

 ?

 For what it's worth, if you're going to install a Corvair in you're aircraft; I truly hope that you are following William Wynne's advice on your build. He has the most experience with the engine.

 ?

 I had a face to face conversation with William regarding engine instrumentation a year or so ago. His theories made a lot of sense. He advocates using mechanical engine instruments. The primary reason is that they are immune to electrical system failures. With a total electrical system failure, running the engine on just the battery, his tests show that the ignition will run the engine down to I believe 9 volts (Don't quote me on that number). Anyway, the point is; you'll have a long time of full power to get yourself to an airport. With mechanical instruments, you will have less to worry about knowing what the engine is doing. He specifically mentioned that the Dynon units connect directly to the ignition. He cautions against instruments that might "wig-out" and short out the ignition system which will, of course stop the engine.




	




--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

I don't think the possibility of a tachometer failing and bringing 

down the connected ignition system is the interesting point 

here.  The real point is that the auto engine ignition system is 

prone to single point failures in any part including the battery, 

battery connectors, wiring, generator/alternator, and all the 

ignition parts up to the spark plugs.  If any of these parts fails 

(with possible exception of a spark plug) then the engine stops 

running.  This happens frequently in automobile engines, but real 

aircraft engines have dual isolated ignition systems that don't 

depend on battery power to work (i.e. magnetos).



If you want aircraft engine reliability then install an aircraft 

engine in your aircraft.  If you are happy with auto engine 

reliability then don't worry about the tachometer - just worry about 

the whole thing.



Paul

XL fuselage

 	  Quote: 	
		  First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you 

would still have access to the engine instruments should your 

electrical system fail.



Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail 

the ignition system. Though I  might be wrong and will conceed the 

point if someone could explain it to me.


	


---------------------------------------

ch601xl(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

Is this true about the Corvair? No duel Mags?



On 7/6/06, Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net (p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz < p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net (p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net)>



I don't think the possibility of a tachometer failing and bringing

down the connected ignition system is the interesting point

here.  The real point is that the auto engine ignition system is 

prone to single point failures in any part including the battery,

battery connectors, wiring, generator/alternator, and all the

ignition parts up to the spark plugs.  If any of these parts fails

(with possible exception of a spark plug) then the engine stops 

running.  This happens frequently in automobile engines, but real

aircraft engines have dual isolated ignition systems that don't

depend on battery power to work (i.e. magnetos).



If you want aircraft engine reliability then install an aircraft 

engine in your aircraft.  If you are happy with auto engine

reliability then don't worry about the tachometer - just worry about

the whole thing.



Paul

XL fuselage

 	  Quote: 	
		  First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you 

would still have access to the engine instruments should your

electrical system fail.



Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail

the ignition system. Though I  might be wrong and will conceed the 


	


	


-- 

Christopher W. E. Smith

fly1m1

http://ch-601xl.com

John.Hines(at)craftontull
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

That is correct.  It uses a dual ignition distributor with dual coils and single spark plugs.  

http://www.flycorvaircom/distributor.html   

It’s all a matter of risk management and identifying an expectable level of risk.  Everything you do in life is a risk.  Going to work this morning in these hills with crazy drivers crossing the center line is definitely a risk.  But it was a risk I was willing to take to have the view out my back window.  To me, the view from my Corvair powered Zodiac will be worth the calculated risk.    

Get the latest copy of kit plane magazine.  There is a wonderful article in it about auto conversions and there problems and successes.  It also refers to people building auto conversions as having the true pioneer spirit that the EAA was founded on.  It’s a great read.  

John   

John R. HinesIT ManagerJohn.Hines(at)craftontull.com Office: 479-878-2449  Mobile: 479-366-4783  Fax: 479-631-6224 www.craftontull.com901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 ·Rogers, AR 72756Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Smith

 Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 10:45 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine  

Is this true about the Corvair? No duel Mags?    

On 7/6/06, Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net (p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net)> wrote:   

--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz < p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net (p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net)>

 I don't think the possibility of a tachometer failing and bringing

 down the connected ignition system is the interesting point

 here.  The real point is that the auto engine ignition system is 

 prone to single point failures in any part including the battery,

 battery connectors, wiring, generator/alternator, and all the

 ignition parts up to the spark plugs.  If any of these parts fails

 (with possible exception of a spark plug) then the engine stops 

 running.  This happens frequently in automobile engines, but real

 aircraft engines have dual isolated ignition systems that don't

 depend on battery power to work (i.e. magnetos).

 If you want aircraft engine reliability then install an aircraft 

 engine in your aircraft.  If you are happy with auto engine

 reliability then don't worry about the tachometer - just worry about

 the whole thing.

 Paul

 XL fuselage

 >First, the Dynon unit does have it's own battery available so you 

 >would still have access to the engine instruments should your

 >electrical system fail.

 >

 >Second, I really don't see how a Tach sensor could wig out and fail

 >the ignition system. Though I  might be wrong and will conceed the 

 -- 

 Christopher W. E. Smith

 fly1m1

 http://ch-601xl.com   

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

601zv(at)ritternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

The typical Corvair conversion uses a William Wynne  designed dual point ignition. See FlyCorvair.com

 [quote]   ---

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:34 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system increases the reliability of the Corvair engine or reduces it.



 Since the "Dual" parts are not isolated from each other (they are connected at the spark plugs and the battery/generator/voltage regulator) it is possible that failures of any of the additional components could bring down the whole engine.  It is clear that the additional components naturally lead to more individual component failures since there are more components.  I don't know how many of the component failure modes have been analyzed with regard to one failure causing another part to not work properly.  Without this analysis it is not possible to know whether the increased complexity leads to improvement or deterioration of the engine reliability.



 In any event, failure of the battery, generator, voltage regulator, or any of the related wiring and connectors could lead to an instant engine failure.  This is not supposed to happen in true aircraft engines because the dual isolated magneto system doesn't rely on battery power to keep the engine running.  That leads me to believe the Corvair conversion, like all auto conversions, is more likely to experience a complete in-flight power failure than a purpose built aircraft engine.



 Paul

 XL Fuselage

  



 



  	  Quote: 	
		   That is correct.  It uses a dual ignition distributor with dual coils and single spark plugs.

  

  http://www.flycorvaircom/distributor.html 

  

 It’s all a matter of risk management and identifying an expectable level of risk.  Everything you do in life is a risk.  Going to work this morning in these hills with crazy drivers crossing the center line is definitely a risk.  But it was a risk I was willing to take to have the view out my back window.  To me, the view from my Corvair powered Zodiac will be worth the calculated risk.  

   	
 

 -

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

Paul I know very little about the Corvair solution but if  it is wired up correctly then the ignition systems will be isolated from each  other 

  

 On my twin battery Subaru system it had a diode seperating  the batteries and no inter connection between the systems was allowed anywhere.  Each fuel pump was run from each battery. The HT leads also go through a coil  joiner which are also diode protected..

  

 Setup like this you could have your main battery melt down  and catch fire but the engine would not quit.

  

 I would put my Soob conversion up against any Lycoming for  reliability ...At least I would now the valve guides don't fall  out....

  

 Frank

  

 HDS Soob 400 hours

 RV7a Lycoming  clone...Painting..still



   From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul  Mulwitz

Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:32 AM

To:  zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Dynon on  Corvair engine

 

It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system  increases the reliability of the Corvair engine or reduces it.



Since the  "Dual" parts are not isolated from each other (they are connected at the spark  plugs and the battery/generator/voltage regulator) it is possible that failures  of any of the additional components could bring down the whole engine.  It  is clear that the additional components naturally lead to more individual  component failures since there are more components.  I don't know how many  of the component failure modes have been analyzed with regard to one failure  causing another part to not work properly.  Without this analysis it is not  possible to know whether the increased complexity leads to improvement or  deterioration of the engine reliability.



In any event, failure of the  battery, generator, voltage regulator, or any of the related wiring and  connectors could lead to an instant engine failure.  This is not supposed  to happen in true aircraft engines because the dual isolated magneto system  doesn't rely on battery power to keep the engine running.  That leads me to  believe the Corvair conversion, like all auto conversions, is more likely to  experience a complete in-flight power failure than a purpose built aircraft  engine.



Paul

XL Fuselage

 



  	  Quote: 	
		  That is    correct.  It uses a dual ignition distributor with dual coils and single    spark plugs.

 

http://www.flycorvaircom/distributor.html    

 

It’s all a matter of risk management and identifying an    expectable level of risk.  Everything you do in life is a risk.     Going to work this morning in these hills with crazy drivers crossing the    center line is definitely a risk.  But it was a risk I was willing to    take to have the view out my back window.  To me, the view from my    Corvair powered Zodiac will be worth the calculated risk.   

  	
 

-

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

Paul,  Purely anecdotal, I have been flying since about 1980.  I have experienced four in-flight complete engine stoppages.  All were in "legitimate," manufactured, certified airplanes.  None had anything to do with the ignition or electrical systems. I owe a lot to my training because I, nor any of my passengers nor the airplane, were physically harmed because of these failures. An airplane is a system.  As such, there are a lot things that can go wrong.  We just need to be acutely aware that we are engaging in a somewhat risky endeavour and to be ready to cope with whatever does go wrong.

 

 Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage

 Do not archive

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

    Can't argue with that Paul.  Aside from the pioneering spirit, I think what leads people to choose the Corvair over the traditional Lycoming or Continental is the fact that the latter are damned heavy!  I have to admit, the decreased reliability is a concern for me, especially when I consider the fact that my children will someday fly with me.  

    Given the likelyhood that Lycoming will come up with a lighter weight engine (NOT!), the Corvair seems a solid choice when trying to get more bang for your buck in a light engine.   I would very much like to see somone come up with a 'Lycoming Style' ignition setup on the Corvair though.  How about it all you Gear Heads out there?  Got any ideas?



    



Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		      It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system increases the reliability of the Corvair engine or reduces it.



 Since the "Dual" parts are not isolated from each other (they are connected at the spark plugs and the battery/generator/voltage regulator) it is possible that failures of any of the additional components could bring down the whole engine.  It is clear that the additional components naturally lead to more individual component failures since there are more components.  I don't know how many of the component failure modes have been analyzed with regard to one failure causing another part to not work properly.  Without this analysis it is not possible to know whether the increased complexity leads to improvement or deterioration of the engine reliability.



 In any event, failure of the battery, generator, voltage regulator, or any of the related wiring and connectors could lead to an instant engine failure.   This is not supposed to happen in true aircraft engines because the dual isolated magneto system doesn't rely on battery power to keep the engine running.  That leads me to believe the Corvair conversion, like all auto conversions, is more likely to experience a complete in-flight power failure than a purpose built aircraft engine.



 Paul

 XL Fuselage

  



 



  	  Quote: 	
		   That is correct.  It uses a dual ignition distributor with dual coils and single spark plugs.

  

  http://www.flycorvaircom/distributor.html 

  

 Itï¿½s all a matter of risk management and identifying an expectable level of risk.  Everything you do in life is a risk.  Going to work this morning in these hills with crazy drivers crossing the center line is definitely a risk.  But it was a risk I was willing to  take to have the view out my back window.  To me, the view from my Corvair powered Zodiac will be worth the calculated risk.  

   	
  -

pmaxpmax(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

I'm using a tooth counting tach, which counts the teeth on the ring gear.  

It is totally separated from the elctrical system.  For all the reasons you 

just described.  It works very nicely.



It is as Stewart Warner Deisel Engine tach that goes up to 3500 rpm.



Phil Maxson

601XL/Corvair

Northwest New Jersey

75 hours

[quote]From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>

Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

To: <zenith-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 07:24:55 -0700




<frank.hinde(at)hp.com>



A tach could easily kill an ignition...All it has to do is short the

signal wire to ground and that ign will stop working.



Frank



--

pmaxpmax(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

Paul,



No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair 

conversion.  I'm flying one.



If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of 

experts and those who have been flying for years?



On second thought, don't answer that.  Some people like one engine better 

than another.  In the future, could you please leave the Corvair discussion 

to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?



Phil Maxson

601XL/Corvair

Northwest New Jersey

75 hours



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net>

Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700



It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system 

increases the reliability of the Corvair engine or reduces it.



<<SNIP>>

ch601xl(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most. 



On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com (pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com (pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com)>



Paul,



No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair 

conversion.  I'm flying one.



If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of

experts and those who have been flying for years?



On second thought, don't answer that.  Some people like one engine better 

than another.  In the future, could you please leave the Corvair discussion

to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?



Phil Maxson

601XL/Corvair

Northwest New Jersey

75 hours

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net (p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net)>

Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

To:  zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: RE: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700



It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system

 
	




	


-- 

Christopher W. E. Smith

fly1m1

http://ch-601xl.com

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

I believe your position is perfectly reasonable. Car engine  conversion can be wonderful but the cost in getting there (both financially and  in reduced liability) can be large. My little piece in Kitplanes this month  details out the painful trials of the Soob ea 81. The problem is the development  curve. In other words when folks first start flying behind a particular  conversion not all the bugs have been worked out, simply because not enough  hours have been flown to show up all the issues.

  

 In my Soob conversion it was valve guides and ignition  systems in the Corvair it seems crankshafts have been the big problem. All of  which is (or has been) resolvable but it take a lot of accumulated hours to find  all the issues.

  

 I  would suggest that not a lot of folks appreciate this when they first get  attracted to a particular engine conversion...Dollar signs (or lack of them) are  a big motivator.

  

 For me  when i sold my airplane I was as convinced as I could be the bugs had been  worked out in the engine department...But of course I can't be  sure.

  

 Purely  personally a mid time O200 would have been a far better/cheaper/more reliable  choice, but now the Zodiac I sold is well sorted after 400 hours of  flying.

  

 It is  easy to get emotionally attached to a conversion...A bit like the second  marriage one's selection criteria gets a lot more objective second time  round....

  

 Frank

 HDS  400 hours

 Rv7a...Lycoming clone IO360....

  

 Do not  archive

 



   From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christopher  Smith

Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:33 PM

To:  zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Dynon on  Corvair engine

 

I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It  seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides,  that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for the  cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's reliability. Too  few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the engine failures per  capita against a certified engines, it fails more often. One thing is  clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the choice. That is  what is hurting the engine the most. 



 On 7/6/06, Phil  Maxson <pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com (pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com (pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com)>



Paul,



No    offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair    

conversion.  I'm flying one.



If it is as you say, "not    clear to you", why don't you accept the input of

experts and those who have    been flying for years?



On second thought, don't answer    that.  Some people like one engine better 

than    another.  In the future, could you please leave the Corvair    discussion

to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair    engines?



Phil Maxson

601XL/Corvair

Northwest New Jersey

75    hours



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net (p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net)>

Reply-To:    zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

To:    zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:    RE: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006    11:32:15 -0700



It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual    coil ignition  system


	




	


-- 

Christopher W. E. Smith

fly1m1

http://ch-601xl.com

John.Hines(at)craftontull
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

What is it about the Corvair that brings this stuff out in people?  I’ve been on this list for 6 months and I have never seen the Subaru, Honda, Harley, or VW attacked the way the Corvair is routinely.  Some of the posts on both side’s of the issue have gotten kinda personal.  Corvair people were even asked to leave this forum once.  What’s the deal!!    

John  

Do not archive   

John R. HinesIT ManagerJohn.Hines(at)craftontull.com Office: 479-878-2449  Mobile: 479-366-4783  Fax: 479-631-6224 www.craftontull.com901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 ·Rogers, AR 72756Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Smith

 Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 3:33 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine  

I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most.     

On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com (pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:  

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com (pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com)>

 Paul,

 No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair 

 conversion.  I'm flying one.

 If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of

 experts and those who have been flying for years?

 On second thought, don't answer that.  Some people like one engine better 

 than another.  In the future, could you please leave the Corvair discussion

 to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?

 Phil Maxson

 601XL/Corvair

 Northwest New Jersey

 75 hours

 >From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net (p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net)>

 >Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

 >To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

 >Subject: RE: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine

 >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700

 >

 >It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system

 -- 

 Christopher W. E. Smith

 fly1m1

 http://ch-601xl.com   

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tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

Hi, Chris, et al:

 Sure, the Corvair engine has its share of downsides.  So does every other aero engine flying, including certificated ones.  And that's the beauty of the experimental category - we get to experiment, just as the name implies, with various airframe and powerplant solutions.

 So blanket statements like "...this corvair stuff is just dumb", "...most who choose it is for the cost savings", and "Corvair people come off as rude...That is what is hurting the engine the most" are sure to raise the ire of those of us who have done the research, looked at the options, heard the word from on high, and made the decision to build up one of these beautiful little powerplants from a formerly automotive Corvair.

 In my case, I first chose the engine (cost was NOT a factor), and then went out looking for the right airframe to stick on the back of it.  I'm more than convinced of its reliability and its suitably to haul my ample butt around, having read the conversion manual, talked to other Corvair flyers about their experiences, and spent considerable time with the man who has invested a considerable amount of his life bringing the engine to the aviation market.

 In this little corner of aviation, blanket statements get shot down with alarming regularity given the variables inherent in each individual installation.  And those statements do little to further the legitimate educational dialogue, but tend to just polarize folks into "pro" and "anti" camps.  (Besides, it's just not friendly to imply that someone's an idiot after making an informed choice, when your own research is a bit lacking.)

 And, I've had a forced landing due to an exhaust valve breaking up in a Lycoming O-360A4K.  I do know of a couple of Corvair engines that failed in flight, but I also know that putting excessive loads on any certified or non-certified crankshaft will eventually cause a failure.  Look at the rash of recent ADs concerning crankshaft retirement from Lycoming!

 So, forgive us if we defend our engine choice with passion.  To do otherwise would indicate that we're really not capable of independent thought, and are content to only fly behind brand C or brand L engines for the remainder of our dull, uninspired, sheep-like lives.

 Rick Lindstrom

 Corvair / 601XL

 Christopher Smith wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I know I am new to the list but this corvair stuff is just dumb. It seems no one can say the corvair has it's downsides. It has lots of downsides, that's because it's a car engine. But the reason most who choose it is for the cost savings. The engine does not have the data to prove it's reliability. Too few are flying. But I will wager that if you look at the engine failures per capita against a certified engines, it fails more often. One thing is clear.....Corvair people come off as rude when defending the choice. That is what is hurting the engine the most. 

   On 7/6/06, Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com (pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com (pmaxpmax(at)hotmail.com)>

 Paul,

 No offense intended, but you are showing your ignorance about the Corvair      

 conversion.  I'm flying one.

 If it is as you say, "not clear to you", why don't you accept the input of

 experts and those who have been flying for years?

 On second thought, don't answer that.  Some people like one engine better      

 than another.  In the future, could you please leave the Corvair discussion

 to us who are interested in building and flying Corvair engines?

 Phil Maxson

 601XL/Corvair

 Northwest New Jersey

 75 hours

 >From: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net (p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net)>

 >Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

 >To:  zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

 >Subject: RE: Re: Dynon on Corvair engine

 >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 11:32:15 -0700

 >

 >It is not clear to me whether Mr. Wynne's dual coil ignition system

 -- 

 Christopher W. E. Smith

 fly1m1

   http://ch-601xl.com

LHusky(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: Dynon on Corvair engine

WOW!  I am planning on using a Corvair engine, but at no time have I  came off rude when talking to anyone in this group about the engine.  Your  statement is what is RUDE!  If you don't have anything nice to say, go join  the LYCOMING PEOPLE group and be rude there.  No, I am not defending my  choice of engine.  I could care less what you think of my choice.   That is why it is my choice.  I am defending the fact that not ALL Corvair  people are RUDE!

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