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kirk bellard
Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 13
Location: breaux bridge la
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 Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:57 pm Post subject: flap usage |
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New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's seems slow, is my speed indicator off
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rowedenny
Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:16 pm Post subject: flap usage |
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I never use flaps on take off.
I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends.
I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs.
I may be wrong.
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk3, Rotax 670
| Quote: | On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard <k.bellard(at)aol.com> wrote:
New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's seems slow, is my speed indicator off
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:17 pm Post subject: flap usage |
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Dennis, One notch of flaps is what I call the Kolb automatic take off. You don't move the stick at all, just hold it neutral and feed in full throttle. The Mk III takes off from three in about 200 feet. The nose will rise when you pull off the flaps so you will have to move the stick forward a bit then. Give it a try. Bet you a quarter it becomes your new standard take off technique.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net (rowedenny(at)windstream.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dennis Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net (rowedenny(at)windstream.net)>
I never use flaps on take off.
I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends.
I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs.
I may be wrong.
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk3, Rotax 670
> On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard <k.bellard(at)aol.com (k.bellard(at)aol.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "kirk bellard" <k.bellard(at)aol.com (k.bellard(at)aol.com)>
>
> New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's seems slow, is my speed indicator off
>
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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:39 pm Post subject: flap usage |
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John just made it here at sun fun the flying is great tonight
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
| Quote: | On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Richard Girard
<aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Dennis, One notch of flaps is what I call the Kolb automatic take off. You don't move the stick at all, just hold it neutral and feed in full throttle. The Mk III takes off from three in about 200 feet. The nose will rise when you pull off the flaps so you will have to move the stick forward a bit then. Give it a try. Bet you a quarter it becomes your new standard take off technique.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Rowe <[url=javascript:return]rowedenny(at)windstream.net[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dennis Rowe <[url=javascript:return]rowedenny(at)windstream.net[/url]>
I never use flaps on take off.
I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends.
I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs.
I may be wrong.
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk3, Rotax 670
> On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard <[url=javascript:return]k.bellard(at)aol.com[/url]> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "kirk bellard" <[url=javascript:return]k.bellard(at)aol.com[/url]>
>
> New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's seems slow, is my speed indicator off
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454585#454585
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:09 pm Post subject: flap usage |
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Dennis
I did a lot of testing with my Maliki. I did multiple tradeoffs with no flaps, 20 deg flaps, and full 40 deg flaps. no flaps and 40 deg flaps gave me almost identical results. clean I accelerated quicker, full flaps I took off slower, but it took longer to accelerate.
20 deg flaps gave me the shortest takeoff. in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 percent shorter.
I have modified my flap handle, but have not been able to test yet.
in the 20 deg position I cut the notch both up and down about 5 deg in each direction. the locked position is around 15 deg. and I can pull the handle to about 25 deg without removing the handle from the center notch. with more testing I'll pass on my results.
Boyd Young
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:24 pm Post subject: flap usage |
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Anyone interested in maximum STOL takeoff should try out the "pop" technique used in larger STOL type aircraft. This would likely make a noticeable difference.
B Young is correct in saying the airplane accelerates faster with no flaps, but it takes off at the slowest speed with flaps.
So what gives you the best of both worlds is to accelerate on the ground at the fastest speed with no flaps,and upon reaching the minimum takeoff speed (with flaps) you "pop" the flaps quickly from zero to the half or full deployment position.
I am not intimately familiar with the flap control on the Kolbs (my Firestar plans do not show flaps). But ASSUMING that the flap control is able to be operated by the pilot without distraction, the technique should work well.
The Piper Tri-Pacer pilot operating handbook indicates that using this technique will reduce takeoff roll by 20-25%. The Kolb might do better than that because flap deployment creates air flow disturbance around the prop, so it MIGHT have an even larger effect.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/5/16, B Young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: flap usage
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2016, 4:09 PM
Dennis
I did a lot of testing with my Maliki. I did
multiple tradeoffs with no flaps, 20 deg flaps, and full
40 deg flaps. no flaps and 40 deg flaps gave me almost
identical results. clean I accelerated quicker, full
flaps I took off slower, but it took longer to
accelerate.
20 deg flaps gave me the shortest takeoff. in the
neighborhood of 15 to 20 percent shorter.
I have modified my flap handle, but have not
been able to test yet.
in the 20 deg position I cut the notch both up
and down about 5 deg in each direction. the locked
position is around 15 deg. and I can pull the handle to
about 25 deg without removing the handle from the center
notch. with more testing I'll pass on my
results.
Boyd Young
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stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:36 pm Post subject: flap usage |
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I used to do that in my old '63 Cherokee 180. Full throttle, 60MPH grab the "Johnson Bar" and yank in two notches of flaps with the right hand while hauling back on the yoke with the left. The old girl would leap 40 or 50 feet into the air. Shove the nose over to maintain airspeed while slowly retracting the flaps and pulling the nose up at 65MPH indicated.
Great technique for short and/or soft fields.
I need way more takeoffs in the Firefly before I start trying different things. No flap takeoffs are about 400'. I bet that can be reduced significantly with practice and the right technique.
Stuart
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patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:21 am Post subject: flap usage |
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<<The old girl would leap 40 or 50 feet into the air.>>
Ernest K Gann in one of his books describes this technique. i can`t remember
what he was flying but something quite big. It was in India and by mistake
the plane was topped up with fuel instead of the reduced amount he had asked
for. He just about took off but couldn`t climb because of the extra weight
and he found himself heading straight for the Taj Mahal and too low to bank
much. I remember that he said he was close enough to the Taj Mahal that he
could see men who were working on the temple at the time jumping off the
scaffolding. He pulled the trick of lowering his flaps and bumping the plane
enough to clear the building.
To anyone not familiar with Ganns books. Look them up.Great stuff. `Fate is
the Hunter` is one I remember and one I believe was made into a film. (Burt
Lancaster?)
Pat
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patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:52 am Post subject: flap usage |
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For what its worth I always used one notch of flap on my Xtra and took it off at 5/600 ft . Lowering flaps one notch doesn`t slow the plane worth a damn.. No need to retrim when the flap comes off, you can easily hold the speed steady with the stick. At 500ft you should still be on the look out for a landing spot if the engine stops not fiddling with unimportant things in the cockpit. I usually climbed out in a long curve which would put my strip under the wing as I turned downwind. That made it easy to put the nose down and get back to the strip if everything went quiet. I would retrim after throttling back to cruise speed at around 1200 feet by which time I was back overhead my strip with a known spot for starting any navigational calculations. All the while keeping a weather eye open for C 130 s doing drops at a field about 2 miles from my strip. Happy days.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 11:17 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: flap usage
Dennis, One notch of flaps is what I call the Kolb automatic take off. You don't move the stick at all, just hold it neutral and feed in full throttle. The Mk III takes off from three in about 200 feet. The nose will rise when you pull off the flaps so you will have to move the stick forward a bit then. Give it a try. Bet you a quarter it becomes your new standard take off technique.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net (rowedenny(at)windstream.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dennis Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net (rowedenny(at)windstream.net)>
I never use flaps on take off.
I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends.
I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs.
I may be wrong.
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk3, Rotax 670
| Quote: | On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard <k.bellard(at)aol.com (k.bellard(at)aol.com)> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "kirk bellard" <k.bellard(at)aol.com (k.bellard(at)aol.com)>
New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's seems slow, is my speed indicator off
Read this topic online here:
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kirk bellard
Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 13
Location: breaux bridge la
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:40 am Post subject: Re: flap usage |
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i appreciate the help fellas
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:55 am Post subject: flap usage |
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Dennis
Good to listen to people that have flown a Kolb with flaps. Kolbs are very light air planes which means they speed up and slow down much more quickly than a Cessna or Piper.
I always use one notch of flaps on take off and landing. I used to pull one notch of flaps at the same time rotate for takeoff, then retract for climb out. Lately I just set one notch before takeoff and then retract for climb out. I found that my plane accelerates so quick and takes off at such a low speed that any reduced drag from having the flaps up is not measurable. My plane has the spring steel gear legs a bit longer than the original aluminum but not as long as the new tubular steel legs. With that configuration the flaps give me a higher effective angle of attack to get off the ground more quickly. I have never really measured the climb out with and without flaps. Using full flaps will only extend the takeoff.
For landing I alway use one notch of flaps because I like the lower landing speed and reduced float after the flair. One notch also puts you at about the same pitch trim as you had with power. I have found that one notch of flaps with some power produces a landing approach just about the same as a dead engine and no flaps. I also found that with no flaps I could get the tail down first. This worked out real well when I had a forced landing in a bean field. The tail acted like it was catching the arresting wire on a aircraft carrier. Yes use the flaps in a forced landing to get to the best landing spot then retract them. I had a GA instructor jump all over me once when I told him I retraced my flaps just before landing when I had a forced landing. He used words like, never never reduce flaps on approach. Hey it works well in a Kolb.
One more thing, get out there and practice with idle power extending flaps and pitching forward to keep your airspeed the same. Do this several times to full flaps and back keeping your airspeed pegged on one speed while watching the landing point change. Later if you have a forced landing you will have plenty of control with the flaps to get yourself down to a safe landing spot. So when it gets real quiet pick a spot well within gliding range. Set up for landing a bit long and dial in flaps, don't lock them in a notch, moving them up and down as necessary. If you have to land in something soft and/or deep it might just help to get the tail down first. Flaps tend to pitch you forward so you can't get the tail down first as easy.
As always worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 5:51 AM, Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com (patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | For what its worth I always used one notch of flap on my Xtra and took it off at 5/600 ft . Lowering flaps one notch doesn`t slow the plane worth a damn.. No need to retrim when the flap comes off, you can easily hold the speed steady with the stick. At 500ft you should still be on the look out for a landing spot if the engine stops not fiddling with unimportant things in the cockpit. I usually climbed out in a long curve which would put my strip under the wing as I turned downwind. That made it easy to put the nose down and get back to the strip if everything went quiet. I would retrim after throttling back to cruise speed at around 1200 feet by which time I was back overhead my strip with a known spot for starting any navigational calculations. All the while keeping a weather eye open for C 130 s doing drops at a field about 2 miles from my strip. Happy days.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 11:17 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: flap usage
Dennis, One notch of flaps is what I call the Kolb automatic take off. You don't move the stick at all, just hold it neutral and feed in full throttle. The Mk III takes off from three in about 200 feet. The nose will rise when you pull off the flaps so you will have to move the stick forward a bit then. Give it a try. Bet you a quarter it becomes your new standard take off technique.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net (rowedenny(at)windstream.net)> wrote:
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rowedenny
Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:27 am Post subject: Flap usage |
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Morning,
Thought I'd clarify that by saying "I never use flaps on take offs" in an earlier post, I did not mean to imply I never use flaps.
In fact I rarely land without at least one notch and very often use full flaps. Love em. Sure makes getting into my tiny strip and stopped easy.
I will experiment with one notch on take offs in the near future.
As far as the mentioned technique of pulling a notch during take off to jump off the ground, I was also taught that in a Piper Cherokee while earning my private but have never felt the need to use that in the last 20 years. Maybe when we get the Cessna finished I'll revisit trying that.👍
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk-3 Rotax 670
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George Alexander
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:39 am Post subject: Flap usage |
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Watched John Hauck use this technique flying out of John Bickham's Nauga Field.
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 7:27 AM, Dennis Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Dennis Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net (rowedenny(at)windstream.net)>
SNIPAs far as the mentioned technique of pulling a notch during take off to jump off the ground, .👍.SNIP
Dennis "Skid" RoweMk-3 Rotax 670http://www.manbsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -http://fo &nbs-> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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FS II R503
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jimswan
Joined: 08 Sep 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Eaton Rapids, Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:28 am Post subject: flap usage |
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full flaps on take apt to lead to nose over due to blockage of air over elevators....
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:43 am Post subject: flap usage |
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Not sure if I should keep the same thread????
A few weeks back a pilot was taking off from a local airport, tried to get off the ground at minimum flying speed. After taking off the plane came back to earth, hitting on the nose wheel bending it back, He continued the takeoff, it was noticed by a CFI in the pattern. The CFI told him to circle the pattern till the fire dept, ambulance, and cops could get there. After touching down,, Instead of keeping the nose off the ground as long as possible, he hit the brakes and nosed it in and went off the runway and flipped it over. Everyone walked away, but it could have been worse...
Moral of the story,, if you are going to attempt takeoffs at below safe flying speed by pulling flaps,,, just know the possible consequences.
In all honestly, I don't know if he pulled flaps, tried to climb out of ground effect before getting proper speed, or or moved his eyes to find the trim lever. Doesn't mater. He still has a busted up plane.
Boyd
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:18 pm Post subject: flap usage |
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MKIII/912ULS
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:09 pm Post subject: Flap usage |
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George A/Kolbers:
Had forgotten about that. Had a ball at John B's fly ins.
I use flaps unless I am encountering a bad cross wind, turbulence landing, or those long, long paved airports. I like playing with them, as I was at John B's. They are an effective tool. I was surprised at how many MKIII owners do not take advantage of this capability.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Alexander
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 8:39 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Flap usage
Watched John Hauck use this technique flying out of John Bickham's Nauga Field.
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Arty Trost
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:53 am Post subject: flap usage |
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I must have missed the post that described what a "pop" takeoff is, and how it's done. >From John's post I assume it has to do with how you use the flaps.
Would you please describe it?
Thanks -
Arty Trost
Sandy, Oregon
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:17 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: flap usage
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:18 am Post subject: flap usage |
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Arty/Kolbers:
I use the flaps to pop up off the ground before the MKIII is ready to fly without flaps. Around 30 mph I pull full flaps, pop off the ground, gain airspeed as I retract the flaps and climb out of ground effect.
When I depart my short grass strip on long cross country flights, or with a passenger, I take off with half flaps, 20 degrees. This gets me off the ground pretty quick, giving me a margin of safety with a heavier load. On cross country flights I am at max gross, with full fuel, 150 lbs, and about 100-125 lbs of gear. There is more of a psychological effect when taking off maxed out because I have been flying light and am not used to the extra weight. After a few hours and take off and landings, the max weight take offs become normal again. The first take off after dumping all that gear is fuel, the MKIII is like a rocket ship.
In extreme cases taking off with full flaps helps lighten the load on the mains and gets it rolling in undesirable terrain.
I'm still working on my first cup of coffee.
john h
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TheWanderingWench
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 8:53 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: flap usage
I must have missed the post that described what a "pop" takeoff is, and how it's done. >From John's post I assume it has to do with how you use the flaps.
Would you please describe it?
Thanks -
Arty Trost
Sandy, Oregon
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing" Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:17 AM
Subject: RE: flap usage
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:30 am Post subject: flap usage |
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After a few hours and take off and landings, the max weight take offs become normal again. The first take off after dumping all that gear "and" fuel, the MKIII is like a rocket ship.
I'm still working on my first cup of coffee.
john h
Titus, Alabama
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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