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bobnoffs

Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:51 am Post subject: switches

i have 2 ecu's and 2 elec fuel pumps. my engine needs one of each to run.the system also never wants 2 of either running at the same time. i think there may be times when i want the master on but no power to either. i plan to use on-off-on switches. is there any reason i am not thinking of [wouldn't take much!] that i would want on-on switches instead?



Â thanks again.



Â bob noffs

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:21 am Post subject: switches

-------- Original message --------

From: bob noffs  

Date:04/02/2016  5:49 AM  (GMT-05:00) 

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: AeroElectric-List: switches 

i have 2 ecu's and 2 elec fuel pumps. my engine needs one of each to run.the system also never wants 2 of either running at the same time. i think there may be times when i want the master on but no power to either. i plan to use on-off-on switches. is there any reason i am not thinking of [wouldn't take much!] that i would want on-on switches instead?

 thanks again.

 bob noffs

The 1st thing I think of is that a mechanical failure of a single switch could cause loss of both components. 

Like you, I like the idea of 'exclusive or' switching, but wouldn't want both pumps or ctls routed through the same switch.

Charlie

rnjcurtis(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:26 am Post subject: switches

i have 2 ecu's and 2 elec fuel pumps. my engine needs one of each to run.the system also never wants 2 of either running at the same time. i think there may be times when i want the master on but no power to either. i plan to use on-off-on switches. is there any reason i am not thinking of [wouldn't take much!] that i would want on-on switches instead?



 thanks again.

 bob noffs

 

Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Just remember, as has been discussed many times on this forum, switches are prone to failure!!Â  DO NOT use one switch to select between two critical devices, such as ECUâ€™s.

 

Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  I used 4 ea. SPST switches, 1 for each of the 2 ECUâ€™s and 1 for each of the 2 fuel pumps.Â  This method does not keep you from turning on both ECUâ€™s or pumps, but my system does not care if they are all on.Â  These switches are powered from the battery bus so therefore are always powered even when the master is off.

 

Roger

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:45 am Post subject: switches

I have the same setup that you do and I used a lever-lock on-off switch for each component. No accidental switch actuation in turbulence. You must pull out on the switch to turn it off. 

If your system is an EFII system, it comes with an on-on ecu select switch already wired into the harness. 

I have an independent power switch for each ecu, fuel pump, and coil pack. This allows me to have the master on without any of the efii system powered. 

Justin 



On Apr 2, 2016, at 06:24, Roger <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net (rnjcurtis(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

i have 2 ecu's and 2 elec fuel pumps. my engine needs one of each to run.the system also never wants 2 of either running at the same time. i think there may be times when i want the master on but no power to either. i plan to use on-off-on switches. is there any reason i am not thinking of [wouldn't take much!] that i would want on-on switches instead?



 thanks again.

 bob noffs

 

           Just remember, as has been discussed many times on this forum, switches are prone to failure!!  DO NOT use one switch to select between two critical devices, such as ECUâ€™s.

 

           I used 4 ea. SPST switches, 1 for each of the 2 ECUâ€™s and 1 for each of the 2 fuel pumps.  This method does not keep you from turning on both ECUâ€™s or pumps, but my system does not care if they are all on.  These switches are powered from the battery bus so therefore are always powered even when the master is off.

 

Roger

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:30 pm Post subject: switches

At 04:49 AM 4/2/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  i have 2 ecu's and 2 elec fuel pumps. my engine needs one of each to run.the system also never wants 2 of either running at the same time. i think there may be times when i want the master on but no power to either. i plan to use on-off-on switches. is there any reason i am not thinking of [wouldn't take much!] that i would want on-on switches instead? 	


   Electrically dependent engine support is best

   brought off the battery bus with EACH device

   having its own, separate switch and circuit

   protection.



   Place 'paired' switches side-by-side so that

   their proper positioning is obvious.



   When you say "never" at the same time . . . what's

   the hazard? Does the engine simply 'change voice',

   stumble, or stop dead? THIS IS SOMETHING YOU NEED

   TO KNOW. It affects your plan-b architecture and

   contributes to your comfortable, competent operation

   of the machine. When ever you read/hear 'never', ask

   and understand the consequences.



   As others have noted, interlocking paired systems

   as a hedge against 'accidental' switch positioning

   does not yield the best FEMA and probability for

   success in all foreseeable failures. In 45 years

   of slinging wire in systems on ultra-lights to Hawker

   4000, I have used only ONE compliment of lever-lock

   and covered switches on 4 installations . . .



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



   This was done on a system that blew the A## end of the airplane off

   and threw out a parachute that made the airplane very difficult to fly

   while offering a way to recover an un-flyable airplane.



   In this case, lever-locks and covers had nothing to do with

   prevention of accidental motion and everything to do with

   encouraging focused attention on the action for the purpose

   of mitigating an exceedingly stressful flight condition.



   I humbly suggest that if anyone is worried about 'accidental'

   positioning of controls in a GA aircraft, then your knowledge of

   and confidence in the operation of the airplane needs some

   attention. Here's a sad example of poor attention

   to understanding that got some folks killed and cost a lot

   of dollars better expended elsewhere . . .



  http://tinyurl.com/nrm5k2r



 

   The two guys up front in this airplane were not an

   'accident looking for a place to happen' they were simply

   unqualified to be in an airplane they did not understand.



   They drove right into that crash . . .



   It's a matter of mind set that focuses first on crafting

   an elegant system with a confident outcome for a failure

   mode effects analysis as the 'cake' . . . followed up with your

   understanding of how it all works as the 'frosting'.

   If you understand your machine there will be no 'accidents'

   in the cockpit.



   Further, statistics show that should you ever find yourself

   with a very silent engine up front the overwhelming predominance

   of root causes are empty fuel tanks . . .

   

   

    



 

   Bob . . .

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bobnoffs

Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:09 am Post subject: switches

since an earlier post of mine about my ''electric dependant engine'' i have decided to use 2 on-ff switches instead of one on-off-on to operate backup systems.because of the importance of the alternator as a backup would it be adviseable to use a 0n-0n switch for the alternator? if the alternator switch is not on it would light up a warning light on the panel? seems a more sure way to catch this than with the eis for voltage.



Â another question......1'' seems to be a pretty standard spacing for toggles but what distance is generally accepted to separate horizontal rows?



Â thanks, bob noffs

rnjcurtis(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:11 am Post subject: switches

since an earlier post of mine about my ''electric dependant engine'' i have decided to use 2 on-ff switches instead of one on-off-on to operate backup systems.because of the importance of the alternator as a backup would it be adviseable to use a 0n-0n switch for the alternator? if the alternator switch is not on it would light up a warning light on the panel? seems a more sure way to catch this than with the eis for voltage.



 

 

Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  I assume that you have a â€œLOW VOLTAGEâ€ indicator built into your electrical system Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  with an indicator on the panel.Â  If this is the case it will act as an alert that will tell you if the Â Â  alternator is not on, and you will not need another warning light.

 

Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Roger

ARGOLDMAN(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:44 am Post subject: switches

Donnknow if I would do that...

  

 Usually a warning light is just that--, a warning about something that is a  problem. If that light is on most of the time, your brain will probably ignore  it and not see it when you may need it most.

  

 Why not just set your backup regulator at a slightly lower voltage than  your primary and then set a low voltage  limit trigger  on your efis  at that voltage. If your main fails, your secondary goes to town, the lower  voltage sets off the alarm and you are notified that something is happening, not  that something is not happening which you don't want to happen anyway. Of course  your indicator light may occasionally flash when your bus voltage  temporarily decreases waiting for your primary to regain the voltage... 

  

 clear as electrical mud???

  

 Rich

  

  In a message dated 4/6/2016 8:10:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  icubob(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		           since an earlier post of mine about my ''electric dependant engine'' i    have decided to use 2 on-ff switches instead of one on-off-on to operate    backup systems.because of the importance of the alternator as a backup would    it be adviseable to use a 0n-0n switch for the alternator? if the alternator    switch is not on it would light up a warning light on the panel? seems a more    sure way to catch this than with the eis for voltage.



 another    question......1'' seems to be a pretty standard spacing for toggles but what    distance is generally accepted to separate horizontal    rows?



 thanks, bob  noffs

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:18 pm Post subject: switches

1" works for finger convenience, though many switches will allow 3/4" spacing. 



I'm trying to group by function, & add an extra 1/4-1/2" between functions. Ex: strobes, 1", position lights, then 1 1/4" to pitot heat.

Spaces make it easier to find a switch by 'feel'. 

Keep anything that might cause an "oh s**t" reaction (ie: fuel pump off) well away from frequently used stuff, like flaps down.

Charlie

-------- Original message --------

From: bob noffs  

Date:04/06/2016  11:07 AM  (GMT-05:00) 

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: AeroElectric-List: switches 

since an earlier post of mine about my ''electric dependant engine'' i have decided to use 2 on-ff switches instead of one on-off-on to operate backup systems.because of the importance of the alternator as a backup would it be adviseable to use a 0n-0n switch for the alternator? if the alternator switch is not on it would light up a warning light on the panel? seems a more sure way to catch this than with the eis for voltage.



 another question......1'' seems to be a pretty standard spacing for toggles but what distance is generally accepted to separate horizontal rows?



 thanks, bob noffs

bobnoffs

Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:34 am Post subject: switches

thanks guys. these switches are all in location of start key.



Â i have thought about the ''oops''. mouser makes switch guards which lock the switch in any position for my back up systems.as a FYI some guards from aviation vendors always turn the switch off when the guard is closed.haven't decided on the guard thing yet.



Â bob noffs

On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  1" works for finger convenience, though many switches will allow 3/4" spacing.Â 



I'm trying to group by function, & add an extra 1/4-1/2" between functions. Ex: strobes, 1", position lights, then 1 1/4" to pitot heat.

Spaces make it easier to find a switch by 'feel'.Â 

Keep anything that might cause an "oh s**t" reaction (ie: fuel pump off) well away from frequently used stuff, like flaps down.

Charlie

-------- Original message --------

From: bob noffs  

Date:04/06/2016  11:07 AM  (GMT-05:00) 

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com) 

Subject: switches 

since an earlier post of mine about my ''electric dependant engine'' i have decided to use 2 on-ff switches instead of one on-off-on to operate backup systems.because of the importance of the alternator as a backup would it be adviseable to use a 0n-0n switch for the alternator? if the alternator switch is not on it would light up a warning light on the panel? seems a more sure way to catch this than with the eis for voltage.



Â another question......1'' seems to be a pretty standard spacing for toggles but what distance is generally accepted to separate horizontal rows?



Â thanks, bob noffs

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:38 am Post subject: switches

I would not want a guard that hides the switch position. If a guard is 

closed I want it to be confirmation of the switch position. Most 

aviation guards do that and further they suggest that the switch is 

important enough to not touch without thinking about it a moment. Too 

many guarded switches actually destroys that little bit of psychological 

protection.

Ken



On 07/04/2016 6:32 AM, bob noffs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   thanks guys. these switches are all in location of start key.

  i have thought about the ''oops''. mouser makes switch guards which 

 lock the switch in any position for my back up systems.as 

 <http://systems.as> a FYI some guards from aviation vendors always 

 turn the switch off when the guard is closed.haven't decided on the 

 guard thing yet.

  bob noffs

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:42 am Post subject: switches

One of the most exciting parts of the build, for me, was the human factors engineering. Switch layout, type of switches, safety concerns with an electric dependent engine, and how pilots will interact with the system. Below is a picture of my final product.

 As I mentioned before, all switches critical to the engine running are milspec lever-lock switches. I can't count the times during turbulence that I've reached for something on the panel and touched something else due to bouncing around. I don't to accidentally bump an engine switch off during flight due to turbulence (although any single switch would not shut it down. It would take the correct pair). It was an easy solution that I like, and I wouldn't change a thing. 

Justin

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 7, 2016, at 04:36, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 I would not want a guard that hides the switch position. If a guard is closed I want it to be confirmation of the switch position. Most aviation guards do that and further they suggest that the switch is important enough to not touch without thinking about it a moment. Too many guarded switches actually destroys that little bit of psychological protection.

 Ken

> On 07/04/2016 6:32 AM, bob noffs wrote:

> thanks guys. these switches are all in location of start key.

> i have thought about the ''oops''. mouser makes switch guards which lock the switch in any position for my back up systems.as <http://systems.as> a FYI some guards from aviation vendors always turn the switch off when the guard is closed.haven't decided on the guard thing yet.

> bob noffs

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:53 am Post subject: switches

At 06:36 AM 4/7/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>



 I would not want a guard that hides the switch position. If a guard is closed I want it to be confirmation of the switch position. Most aviation guards do that and further they suggest that the switch is important enough to not touch without thinking about it a moment. Too many guarded switches actually destroys that little bit of psychological protection.\ 	


  Most off-the-shelf switch covers will force the

  switch to one side when closed. Operating the switch

  requires that the cover be opened before the switch

  can be moved . . . and the cover must remain open.

  Closing the cover forces the switch back.



  You have to work pretty hard to find covers that

  allow 'protection' in either switch position.



 

   Bob . . .

billp(at)wwpc.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:23 am Post subject: switches

There are good quality switches that have a locking feature that     will lock the switch in either position. To change the switches     position you have to pull the switch bat out to release the movement     to change it's position. I have used these in places where I never     want the switch to be moved accidentally. I've found them at     Digikey. Here's an example:  http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/apem-inc/631H%2F22V/679-1212-ND/1280278

     These don't use a switch cover to protect against accidental     actuation, the protection is built into the mechanical design of the     switch. A similar feature can be found in switches of various     mounting styles, pole configurations and capacities. 

     

     Bill Putney - N5413K

     

     On 4/7/16 10:51 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls,       III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         At 06:36 AM 4/7/2016, you wrote:

               	  Quote: 	
		  -->           AeroElectric-List message           posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)

           

           I would not want a guard that hides the switch position. If a           guard is           closed I want it to be confirmation of the switch position.           Most aviation           guards do that and further they suggest that the switch is           important           enough to not touch without thinking about it a moment. Too           many guarded           switches actually destroys that little bit of psychological           protection.\ 	
       

        Most off-the-shelf switch covers will force the

        switch to one side when closed. Operating the switch

        requires that the cover be opened before the switch

        can be moved . . . and the cover must remain open.

        Closing the cover forces the switch back.

       

        You have to work pretty hard to find covers that

        allow 'protection' in either switch position.

       

                

             Bob . . .

JOHN TIPTON

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Torquay - England

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:38 am Post subject: switches

You have to look no further than 'Steinair' for a selection of locking switches:

 http://www.steinair.com/store.cfm?tlcatid=23

Regards:

John



Sent from my iPad



     ----x--O--x----

On 7 Apr 2016, at 08:20 pm, Bill <billp(at)wwpc.com (billp(at)wwpc.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		                     There are good quality switches that have a locking feature that     will lock the switch in either position. To change the switches     position you have to pull the switch bat out to release the movement     to change it's position. I have used these in places where I never     want the switch to be moved accidentally. I've found them at     Digikey. Here's an example:  [/url][url=http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/apem-inc/631H%2F22V/679-1212-ND/1280278]http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/apem-inc/631H%2F22V/679-1212-ND/1280278

     These don't use a switch cover to protect against accidental     actuation, the protection is built into the mechanical design of the     switch. A similar feature can be found in switches of various     mounting styles, pole configurations and capacities. 

     

     Bill Putney - N5413K

     

     On 4/7/16 10:51 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls,       III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         At 06:36 AM 4/7/2016, you wrote:

               	  Quote: 	
		  -->           AeroElectric-List message           posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)

           

           I would not want a guard that hides the switch position. If a           guard is           closed I want it to be confirmation of the switch position.           Most aviation           guards do that and further they suggest that the switch is           important           enough to not touch without thinking about it a moment. Too           many guarded           switches actually destroys that little bit of psychological           protection.\ 	
       

        Most off-the-shelf switch covers will force the

        switch to one side when closed. Operating the switch

        requires that the cover be opened before the switch

        can be moved . . . and the cover must remain open.

        Closing the cover forces the switch back.

       

        You have to work pretty hard to find covers that

        allow 'protection' in either switch position.

       

                

             Bob . . .

bobnoffs

Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:42 am Post subject: switches

hi all,



Â is there a correct way to orient battery and load on a switch when wiring?



Â i am asking because of possible arcing in the switch if there is a wrong way.



Â bob

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:29 am Post subject: switches

At 06:36 AM 4/16/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  hi all,

 Â is there a correct way to orient battery and load on a switch when wiring?

 Â i am asking because of possible arcing in the switch if there is a wrong way.

 Â bob 	


   No. See 



  http://tinyurl.com/zw2f7g3



  http://tinyurl.com/jcmdelo



 

 

   Bob . . .

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