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Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:19 am Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

Yep...the only reason to clad 2024 has to do with the inevitable 

corrosion of the high copper content of the alloy..

    6061  has a considerable content of Magnesium and Manganese... and 

the base metal oxidizes to form the protective barrier...which suffices 

on our Kolbs... Most of it is mill marked with Chandler Aluminum in 

Arizona and with the 6061 t6 designation...

   I rebuilt a 20 some year old Ultrastar wreck...and the good parts 

were  as sound as a current model... even the steel rivets used back 

then were serviceable...and much easier to drill out... the feared 

galvanic effect is not a worry IMHO!! At least over the life of our 

planes, based on that experience..

   I worked at Kaiser Aluminum for a time...in the lab and on the floor 

at all stages of aluminum production..but my memory is vague now...  Herb

On 04/12/2016 11:56 AM, Charlie England wrote:

[quote] 

 Stuart,

 Not meaning to take a poke at you personally, but... Alodine doesn't 

 'stick' to the aluminum. It is a 'conversion' process. It basically 

 corrodes the microscopic top layer of the aluminum, forming an 

 'converted' (basically a modified oxide) layer that prevents further 

 corrosion of the underlying aluminum. (Very non-tech, layman's 

 description)

 Alodine works fine on alclad (typically 2024 alloy with pure aluminum 

 coating to protect the corrosion prone 2024), and also works fine on 

 6061 alloy which doesn't need the alclad to protect it. I can 

 personally testify to it working on both, because both alloys are used 

 in the RV-7 I'm building, and I've personally treated both alloys 

 successfully.

 The hinges you attempted to treat were almost certainly 6061 or 

 similar alloy, without any cladding. If I were a betting man, I'd bet 

 that you didn't get the surface perfectly clean and free of oils/other 

 contamination, and/or you didn't properly acid etch the parts prior to 

 the treatment attempt. All aluminum has a layer of corrosion on its 

 surface, if it's been exposed to air for more than a few minutes. The 

 alodine cannot 'convert' this layer of oxide; it can only work on 

 aluminum itself. It cannot work through any contaminants, either. The 

 likely reason you got conversion in the holes and not the surface is 

 that the act of drilling the holes removed the contaminants and the 

 corrosion layer.

 I don't know what alloys are used in Kolbs, but I'd bet that any 

 extruded parts (angle, plate, etc) are 6061 and tubing is also 6061, 

 except for non-structural stuff like aluminum fuel line, which is 

 usually 3000 series alloy. Aluminum sheet could be either 6061 or 

 2024, but is probably 6061.

 6061 is pretty corrosion resistant, so unless the plane will be tied 

 down outside or lives near salt water, alodine might not be *needed*, 

 but it never hurts.

 With 2024, the alodine process provides an extra 'layer' of protection 

 in addition to the alclad.

 Tests have shown that alodine provides as much protection from 

 corrosion as the best epoxies or any other actual paint/coating process.

 FWIW,

 Charlie

 On 4/12/2016 8:49 AM, Stuart Harner wrote:

> 

>

> Bill,

>

> If the tubes are alclad, (I suspect they are) the alodine won't 

> "stick" anyway.

>

> After drilling all the holes in the hinges I got all set up to 

> alodine them. Turned out the only place it would take was the inside 

> of the holes. The hinges were either alclad or already alodined with 

> clear chemical. The pretty gold colored holes were quickly filled 

> with stainless steel rivets so no one can see anyway but I know they 

> are protected. 

>

> You could do a test on a small piece of scrap tube to see what effect 

> it has.

>

> Stuart

>

> --

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:33 am Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

This raises a question for me... I tried to drill out some of the rivets that were used by the original builder to build the tails (damaged in shipping), and it was very very difficult to do it without damaging the parts under the rivets. Drilling off the heads was possible, but pounding the stems out of the holes without collapsing or denting the tubes was very difficult.



Are there more than one type of rivets that are considered acceptable for the Kolb? Anything other than Stainless? Are the Avex rivets (used on the Zenair) seen as acceptable?



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 4/12/16, Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> wrote:



 Subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tuesday, April 12, 2016, 11:18 AM

 

 

 Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>

 

 Yep...the only reason to clad 2024 has to do with the

 inevitable 

 corrosion of the high copper content of the alloy..

 

     6061  has a considerable content of

 Magnesium and Manganese... and 

 the base metal oxidizes to form the protective

 barrier...which suffices 

 on our Kolbs... Most of it is mill marked with Chandler

 Aluminum in 

 Arizona and with the 6061 t6 designation...

 

    I rebuilt a 20 some year old Ultrastar

 wreck...and the good parts 

 were  as sound as a current model... even the steel

 rivets used back 

 then were serviceable...and much easier to drill out... the

 feared 

 galvanic effect is not a worry IMHO!! At least over the life

 of our 

 planes, based on that experience..

 

    I worked at Kaiser Aluminum for a

 time...in the lab and on the floor 

 at all stages of aluminum production..but my memory is vague

 now...  Herb

 

 On 04/12/2016 11:56 AM, Charlie England wrote:

 > 

 <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>

 >

 > Stuart,

 >

 > Not meaning to take a poke at you personally, but...

 Alodine doesn't 

 > 'stick' to the aluminum. It is a 'conversion' process.

 It basically 

 > corrodes the microscopic top layer of the aluminum,

 forming an 

 > 'converted' (basically a modified oxide) layer that

 prevents further 

 > corrosion of the underlying aluminum. (Very non-tech,

 layman's 

 > description)

 >

 > Alodine works fine on alclad (typically 2024 alloy with

 pure aluminum 

 > coating to protect the corrosion prone 2024), and also

 works fine on 

 > 6061 alloy which doesn't need the alclad to protect it.

 I can 

 > personally testify to it working on both, because both

 alloys are used 

 > in the RV-7 I'm building, and I've personally treated

 both alloys 

 > successfully.

 >

 > The hinges you attempted to treat were almost certainly

 6061 or 

 > similar alloy, without any cladding. If I were a

 betting man, I'd bet 

 > that you didn't get the surface perfectly clean and

 free of oils/other 

 > contamination, and/or you didn't properly acid etch the

 parts prior to 

 > the treatment attempt. All aluminum has a layer of

 corrosion on its 

 > surface, if it's been exposed to air for more than a

 few minutes. The 

 > alodine cannot 'convert' this layer of oxide; it can

 only work on 

 > aluminum itself. It cannot work through any

 contaminants, either. The 

 > likely reason you got conversion in the holes and not

 the surface is 

 > that the act of drilling the holes removed the

 contaminants and the 

 > corrosion layer.

 >

 > I don't know what alloys are used in Kolbs, but I'd bet

 that any 

 > extruded parts (angle, plate, etc) are 6061 and tubing

 is also 6061, 

 > except for non-structural stuff like aluminum fuel

 line, which is 

 > usually 3000 series alloy. Aluminum sheet could be

 either 6061 or 

 > 2024, but is probably 6061.

 >

 > 6061 is pretty corrosion resistant, so unless the plane

 will be tied 

 > down outside or lives near salt water, alodine might

 not be *needed*, 

 > but it never hurts.

 >

 > With 2024, the alodine process provides an extra

 'layer' of protection 

 > in addition to the alclad.

 >

 > Tests have shown that alodine provides as much

 protection from 

 > corrosion as the best epoxies or any other actual

 paint/coating process.

 >

 > FWIW,

 >

 > Charlie

 >

 > On 4/12/2016 8:49 AM, Stuart Harner wrote:

 >> 

 <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net>

 >>

 >> Bill,

 >>

 >> If the tubes are alclad, (I suspect they are) the

 alodine won't 

 >> "stick" anyway.

 >>

 >> After drilling all the holes in the hinges I got

 all set up to 

 >> alodine them. Turned out the only place it would

 take was the inside 

 >> of the holes. The hinges were either alclad or

 already alodined with 

 >> clear chemical. The pretty gold colored holes were

 quickly filled 

 >> with stainless steel rivets so no one can see

 anyway but I know they 

 >> are protected. 

 >>

 >> You could do a test on a small piece of scrap tube

 to see what effect 

 >> it has.

 >>

 >> Stuart

 >>

 >> --

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:45 am Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

For corrosion protection on my mkiii ..   Before I put on fabric I took a syringe, loaded it up with epoxy primer,   then put a drip or two on each joint.  I let capliary attraction pull the primer into the joints.   2 things,  it should keep moisture and corrosion out of metal to metal contacts, and if it helped to stabilize the joints,,,, all the better.... 

Boyd Young

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:06 pm Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

This raises a question for me... I tried to drill out some of the rivets that were used by the original builder to build the tails (damaged in shipping), and it was very very difficult to do it without damaging the parts under the rivets. Drilling off the heads was possible, but pounding the stems out of the holes without collapsing or denting the tubes was very difficult.



Are there more than one type of rivets that are considered acceptable for the Kolb? Anything other than Stainless? Are the Avex rivets (used on the Zenair) seen as acceptable?



Bill Berle

 



Kolbers:



Carbon and SS pop rivets use hardened steel mandrels.  If an 1/8" bit comes in contact with the mandrel, the mandrel wins very quickly.



I have rebuilt all three of my Kolbs, which required a lot of rivet drilling to remove.  Learned a few tricks over the years doing that.



First, drive out the old mandrel prior to a drilling attempt.  You can buy a 1/16" punch that works great, or use spent mandrels.  First grind one end square (flat).  Use small Vise Grips to hold the mandrel.  The drive them out.



To prevent the rivet from spinning while drilling I made a small tool out of a piece of hack saw blade.  I grind a notch in one end, beveling on one edge.  Push this under the rivet head as far as possible to lock the rivet.



If the rivet is not for a structural part, I use common hardware store aluminum rivets.  Easy to drill out.  All my Lexan is attached with aluminum rivets.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:20 pm Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

I think someone noticed that Bryan uses , likely non acetic , silicone 

to seal the tube ends from bugs and the like...probably moisture also..Herb



On 04/12/2016 02:45 PM, B Young wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 For corrosion protection on my mkiii ..   Before I put on fabric I 

 took a syringe, loaded it up with epoxy primer,   then put a drip or 

 two on each joint.  I let capliary attraction pull the primer into the 

 joints.   2 things,  it should keep moisture and corrosion out of 

 metal to metal contacts, and if it helped to stabilize the joints,,,, 

 all the better....



 Boyd Young




	


-- 

Signature text; Fort Marcy Park?  Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left.

Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:24 pm Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

In a very tough case...grinding the head off with a dremel tool works...



   Herb



On 04/12/2016 03:06 PM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



   

 This raises a question for me... I tried to drill out some of the rivets that were used by the original builder to build the tails (damaged in shipping), and it was very very difficult to do it without damaging the parts under the rivets. Drilling off the heads was possible, but pounding the stems out of the holes without collapsing or denting the tubes was very difficult.



 Are there more than one type of rivets that are considered acceptable for the Kolb? Anything other than Stainless? Are the Avex rivets (used on the Zenair) seen as acceptable?



 Bill Berle

   



 Kolbers:



 Carbon and SS pop rivets use hardened steel mandrels.  If an 1/8" bit comes in contact with the mandrel, the mandrel wins very quickly.



 I have rebuilt all three of my Kolbs, which required a lot of rivet drilling to remove.  Learned a few tricks over the years doing that.



 First, drive out the old mandrel prior to a drilling attempt.  You can buy a 1/16" punch that works great, or use spent mandrels.  First grind one end square (flat).  Use small Vise Grips to hold the mandrel.  The drive them out.



 To prevent the rivet from spinning while drilling I made a small tool out of a piece of hack saw blade.  I grind a notch in one end, beveling on one edge.  Push this under the rivet head as far as possible to lock the rivet.



 If the rivet is not for a structural part, I use common hardware store aluminum rivets.  Easy to drill out.  All my Lexan is attached with aluminum rivets.



 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama




	


-- 

Signature text; Fort Marcy Park?  Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  



Kolbers: <snip>



To prevent the rivet from spinning while drilling I made a small tool out of a piece of hack saw blade.  I grind a notch in one end, beveling on one edge.  Push this under the rivet head as far as possible to lock the rivet.

<snip>



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama 	




Yep. Works like a champion. Sharpen the beveled notch edges with a Dremel.

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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:39 pm Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

Yep. Works like a champion. Sharpen the beveled notch edges with a Dremel.



--------

Richard Pike

Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Kingsport, TN 3TN0





I used the corner of a bench grinder to do mine.  The little homemade tools

I use for pop rivets in the tin can with my pop rivet gun and snap punch,

must be 30 years old.  Can't wear them out and they didn't cost anything to

start with.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

gtaylor35918(at)roadrunne
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:19 pm Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

Good video,

         Christ has pay the prince for our sins, it is by God's Grace that

we are Saved.



G od's

R iches

A t 

C hrist

E xpense



--

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:03 pm Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

"Greg Taylor" <gtaylor35918(at)roadrunner.com>

 

 Good video, Christ has pay the prince for our sins, it is by God's Grace that we are Saved.

-----------------



What's this have to do with Kolbs? 



Can I post all of my other non-Kolb stuff here too?

Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:30 pm Post subject: Alloyed aluminum on our kolbs...

A lot of the guys on the list know each other, either from flyins or 

cross country stints...so the List Gods tend to tollerate small 

transgressions from time to time....



   the general attitude is one of a bit of tolerance and the list Gods 

generally say..."go forth and sin no more"!  Herb



On 04/12/2016 06:01 PM, Bill Berle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

   "Greg Taylor" <gtaylor35918(at)roadrunner.com>

   

   Good video, Christ has pay the prince for our sins, it is by God's Grace that we are Saved.

 -----------------



 What's this have to do with Kolbs?



 Can I post all of my other non-Kolb stuff here too?

   






	


-- 

Signature text; Fort Marcy Park?  Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left.

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