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Laz
Joined: 04 Jan 2016
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:00 am Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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I Just got off the phone wit the Tec. guy at Aeroled. I am installing there NS strobe lights that have two nav. strobes and a suntail in the rear. Each device uses up 5 amp peak when the strobes fire. Aero LED recommends using a 3 conductor 20AWG Shielded wire to connect them all together and for power.
The way they recommend wiring the whole system is this:
use use the 20 awg wires for power to the strobe and nav. The nav. uses very little so the 20AWG will handle the current. Each Strobe unit ( there will be three) can pull up to 5 amps each when they fire. They use to pull 3.5, but the newer version has been increase to 5 amps. Here is my problem.
If you run all the strobes to a single switch and breaker as they show in their drawing you will need a 15 amp breaker so it will not trip when when all three fire at the same time. If all the long runs of the wire to each wing tip and tail are using 20awg shielded wire they could , in theory not trip the breaker until there where 15 + amps. This seems to violate the Idea of sizing the breaker to protect the wire. Of course I will use a larger wire from the breaker and switch but that still leaves 20awg to the lights. Aero also now recommends using the Shield as the return ground to the main grounding point rather than a Local ground. This is important for the magnetometer which in my case is in the tail.
Any comments would be appreciated
Mike Laz
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:45 am Post subject: Re: breaker size for AeroLED |
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If AeroLED does not recommend a certain size breaker, then you have options.
Use 18 awg with a 10 amp breaker.
Use 20 awg with a 7.5 amp breaker.
Use 20 awg with 3 fuses, 5 amps each.
Circuit breakers require a certain amount of time to trip. Even though it is possible for all three strobes to fire simultaneously, it is not likely that the highest possible current will be flowing long enough to trip a breaker. Fuses blow quicker than breakers.
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:10 am Post subject: Re: breaker size for AeroLED |
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The following is from AeroLED website:
Below current values are for each individual light:
Position Input Current: 0.4A at 14V
Strobe Average Current: 0.8A at 14V
Strobe Peak Current: 5.0A at 14V for 0.2 seconds
And so, (0.4A + 0.8A) x 3 = 3.6 Amps
A 5 amp breaker should handle that.
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:03 am Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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At 06:58 AM 4/21/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | I Just got off the phone wit the Tec. guy at Aeroled. I am installing there NS strobe lights that have two nav. strobes and a suntail in the rear. Each device uses up 5 amp peak when the strobes fire. Aero LED recommends using a 3 conductor 20AWG Shielded wire to connect them all together and for power.
The way they recommend wiring the whole system is this:
use the 20 awg wires for power to the strobe and nav. The nav. uses very little so the 20AWG will handle the current. Each Strobe unit ( there will be three) can pull up to 5 amps each when they fire. They use to pull 3.5, but the newer version has been increase to 5 amps. Here is my problem.
If you run all the strobes to a single switch and breaker as they show in their drawing you will need a 15 amp breaker so it will not trip when when all three fire at the same time. If all the long runs of the wire to each wing tip and tail are using 20awg shielded wire they could , in theory not trip the breaker until there where 15 + amps. This seems to violate the Idea of sizing the breaker to protect the wire. |
The breakers we use are actuated by
a temperature rise in a heater . . .
[img]cid:.0[/img]
This event takes TIME . . . here's the typical
trip resonse for a 5A breaker . . .
[img]cid:.1[/img]
15A would be a 3x overload on the breaker. The
data above suggests that it would take 0.5 to
3.0 seconds for a 15A stress to open the breaker
at room temperature.
I would bet that you could 'protect' your system
with a 5A breaker. Give it a try and report back
to us. The worst case scenario says you'll need
to upsize to a 7A breaker but certainly no larger.
The shielding in this system offers no observable
benefits in your airplane. The wires within the
strobe system are neither potential victims, nor are
they strong antagonists for ELECTROSTATIC coupled
events. Further, the twisting of the wires as they
pass next to a magnetometer is all the protection
you need for what is an exceedingly weak interference
potential for MAGNETIC coupling . . . and shielding
has NO effect on magnetic coupling.
A prop-synchronizer I proposed to Beech back about
1978 sensed the firing of a spark plug by means
of an inductive pickup on the SHIELDED plug wire.
| Quote: | | Of course I will use a larger wire from the breaker and switch but that still leaves 20awg to the lights. Aero also now recommends using the Shield as the return ground to the main grounding point rather than a Local ground. This is important for the magnetometer which in my case is in the tail. |
I went to their website to see if I could
download the installation manual . . . all I
found was product photos.
| Quote: | | Any comments would be appreciated |
If that ever nuisance trips, I'll buy you
a Big Mac and a cup of coffee . . . In the
mean time, I'll drop them a note to see
if they'll send me a system to bench test
from which we'll have MEASURED performance
data from which to make more rational decisions
for breaker sizing.
Bob . . .
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ARGOLDMAN(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:03 am Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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If you are using fuses, use slo-blow
Rich
In a message dated 4/21/2016 7:09:06 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, fransew(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
If AeroLED does not recommend a certain size breaker, then you have options.
Use 18 awg with a 10 amp breaker.
Use 20 awg with a 7.5 amp breaker.
Use 20 awg with 3 fuses, 5 amps each.
Circuit breakers require a certain amount of time to trip. Even though it is possible for all three strobes to fire simultaneously, it is not likely that the highest possible current will be flowing long enough to trip a breaker. Fuses blow quicker than breakers.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455287#455287===============================================
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Laz
Joined: 04 Jan 2016
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:58 am Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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Thanks so much Bob.
There are reported problems with the Magnetometer test when their Suntail
light is on . the Gramin unit will not pass the test when the light is
grounded locally at the tail. When they switched to using the shield for
the ground it passed. So that is where this all came from. One of the
Guys at Stein air actually had this problem in his 8 , so its not some
random builder Idea. The Garmin G3X manual wants that Magnetometer
installed 10 ft from any steel , which is impossible on a RV8. The rear
location seems to work just fine.
I agree that the 15 amp breaker is way overkill, but that,s what they told
me. If you go to there website and click on the actual lights it will send
you to the page that has the install documents. It actually does not show
the shield grounding the way they recommend but does have the breaker
info. Which is actually wrong since they have now upgraded to a 5 amp peak
with their latest units.
Thanks for all your help. I decided to do all my own wiring of the Garmin
so I would understand what was going on. It has been a great learning
experience.
If you are at Oshkosh this year , please stop buy the Repair Barn. I
volunteer the entire show and would like to meet you. Lunch would be on me
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whd721
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:01 am Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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I am not an Elec expert, I do have the AeroLeds on my RV9A.
As I read the specs, each of the three AeroLeds needs 5 amp for .2 sec. In my installation, the lights are Synced and the lights never fire at the same time. The ave current should be less than 5 amp.
The grounding is confusing.
I printed out the current recommended wiring from AeroLeds today for the Suntail. It shows that the shield braid is to be grounded at both ends, the Suntail black wire to ground and the mounting screw to ground. I interpreted this in the following way, I connected the Shield braid, black wire and mounting screw together and extended that connection back to wing structure for my ground point.
I had very bad strobe noise on my comm radio at first flight. A call to AeroLeds gave me the instruction to “NOT GROUND THE SHIELD BRAID” at the light ends.
Un-grounding the Shield at the AeroLed mounting location has greatly reduced my radio noise.
| Quote: | On Apr 21, 2016, at 4:58 AM, Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com> wrote:
I Just got off the phone wit the Tec. guy at Aeroled. I am installing there NS strobe lights that have two nav. strobes and a suntail in the rear. Each device uses up 5 amp peak when the strobes fire. Aero LED recommends using a 3 conductor 20AWG Shielded wire to connect them all together and for power.
The way they recommend wiring the whole system is this:
use use the 20 awg wires for power to the strobe and nav. The nav. uses very little so the 20AWG will handle the current. Each Strobe unit ( there will be three) can pull up to 5 amps each when they fire. They use to pull 3.5, but the newer version has been increase to 5 amps. Here is my problem.
If you run all the strobes to a single switch and breaker as they show in their drawing you will need a 15 amp breaker so it will not trip when when all three fire at the same time. If all the long runs of the wire to each wing tip and tail are using 20awg shielded wire they could , in theory not trip the breaker until there where 15 + amps. This seems to violate the Idea of sizing the breaker to protect the wire. Of course I will use a larger wire from the breaker and switch but that still leaves 20awg to the lights. Aero also now recommends using the Shield as the return ground to the main grounding point rather than a Local ground. This is important for the magnetometer which in my case is in the tail.
Any comments would be appreciated
Mike Laz
|
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_________________
whd721
RV9A
Beaverton, OR |
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:19 am Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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| Quote: |
"lights are Synced and the lights never fire at the same time." |
Doesn't the synch insure that the lights DO fire at the same time?
| Quote: | I had very bad strobe noise on my comm radio at first flight ... Un-grounding the Shield at the AeroLed mounting location has greatly reduced my radio noise.
|
Bob, as you said that the strobes were low potential for interference, can you explain this?
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:20 am Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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At 10:56 AM 4/21/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks so much Bob.
There are reported problems with the Magnetometer test when their Suntail light is on . the Gramin unit will not pass the test when the light is grounded locally at the tail. When they switched to using the shield for the ground it passed. So that is where this all came from. One of the Guys at Stein air actually had this problem in his 8 , so its not some random builder Idea. The Garmin G3X manual wants that Magnetometer installed 10 ft from any steel , which is impossible on a RV8. The rear location seems to work just fine. |
Okay, found the wiring . . .
[img]cid:.0[/img]
This configuration doesn't pay homage to the physics
that describes effects of electron flow in wires.
It appears the product has 4 connections for functionality,
two power lines for strobe and nav, one sync wire and one ground
wire. The use of a shielded, twisted trio ADDS NOTHING to
EMC compatibility of this product when wired as shown.
There are two propagation modes for interference to get
out of the system wires . . . electrostatic coupling which
is very weak and couples fast-rising voltage excursions
from one conductor to another by means of capacitive
coupling. The antagonist and victim wires as capacitor
'plates' must share dielectric separation consisting of
air -and- insulation of the two wires.
This coupling is tiny . . . measured in tens of picofarads
per foot. It takes a strong voltage rise (like those found
on magneto p-leads and xenon strobe wires) laying in close
proximity to sensitive victims like audio and data wires
over pretty long distances before electrostatic (capacitive)
coupling becomes a significant risk.
The other mode is electromagnetic coupling . . . also weak
but significant when electron flow in a wire passed within
inches of a device like a compass that is attempting to
resolve milligauss vectors (earth magnetic field).
The wiring shown above shows shielding which is useful ONLY
for disrupting a non-existent antagonist->propagation->victim
configuration.
At the same time, power ground for the system is illustrated
as happening locally. This means that electrons flowing one
direction in the twisted trio DO NOT FLOW in the opposite
direction in the same bundle of wires. This totally negates
the de-coupling capabilities of the twisted trio.
To correct this mis-understanding of the physics, I would
USE THE SHIELD as the ground return for all wires within
the shield. This will cause the shield to offer concentric
equal amplitude, opposite polarity return cancellation for
magnetic fields generated by outbound current flows. Having a
TWISTED QUAD of wires and no shielding would be just as effective.
But using the shield for the 4th wire is a perfectly acceptable
practice. Wiring the shield as shown produces no demonstrable
benefit.
It's completely understandable why someone experienced a magnetometer
interference experience using the factory wiring as depicted . . .
but its all about concentric current flows and has nothing to
do with 'shielding'.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:18 am Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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| Quote: |
Bob, as you said that the strobes were low potential for interference, can you explain this? |
. . . how would they be high potential? AeroLED
offers these products in both 'experimental' and
'certified' versions. If they've run the gauntlet
for DO-160/TSO, then their devices have been
tested for conducted and radiated emissions right
at the connectors for each device . . . they're
not allowed to say "shield this wire" or "ground
that ground wire to the panel" or any other
installer-driven activity. Each device must run
the gauntlet barefooted.
It makes no sense that the 'experimental' version
would not enjoy the same degree of attention to
electromagnetic compatibility as their TSO
cousins. The OBAM aviation market is a substantial
part of their cash flow. The expense of components
to achieve EMC Nirvana is trivial compared to the
total cost of the product . . . so like the B&C
starters . . . there is no functional or physical
difference between the PMA and EXP versions.
Knowing that, we can be 99.99% sure that any perceived
interference problem lies with installation . . .
not with the product. At the same time, the OBAM
aviation market is not flush with gray-bearded
system integrators so it behooves the manufacturers
of such products to offer installation guidance,
not the least of which are wiring requirements
for functionality and suggestions for EMC harmony.
This is where AeroLED stubbed their toe. Their
perfectly golden product has a potential for
becoming an antagonist, not because of how their
device works, but because of how it gets installed.
The thing COULD be a simple incandescent bulb
under red glass . . . and it would STILL upset
a magnetometer if a single strand conductor passes
by the sensor on its way to the wing tip.
Bob . . .
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JOHN TIPTON
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Torquay - England
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:32 am Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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So: if you are using fuses, stay with 5amp or go to 7amp
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
On 21 Apr 2016, at 02:14 pm, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 06:58 AM 4/21/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | I Just got off the phone wit the Tec. guy at Aeroled. I am installing there NS strobe lights that have two nav. strobes and a suntail in the rear. Each device uses up 5 amp peak when the strobes fire. Aero LED recommends using a 3 conductor 20AWG Shielded wire to connect them all together and for power.
The way they recommend wiring the whole system is this:
use the 20 awg wires for power to the strobe and nav. The nav. uses very little so the 20AWG will handle the current. Each Strobe unit ( there will be three) can pull up to 5 amps each when they fire. They use to pull 3.5, but the newer version has been increase to 5 amps. Here is my problem.
If you run all the strobes to a single switch and breaker as they show in their drawing you will need a 15 amp breaker so it will not trip when when all three fire at the same time. If all the long runs of the wire to each wing tip and tail are using 20awg shielded wire they could , in theory not trip the breaker until there where 15 + amps. This seems to violate the Idea of sizing the breaker to protect the wire. |
The breakers we use are actuated by
a temperature rise in a heater . . .
<2a35c5db.jpg>
This event takes TIME . . . here's the typical
trip resonse for a 5A breaker . . .
<2a35c639.jpg>
15A would be a 3x overload on the breaker. The
data above suggests that it would take 0.5 to
3.0 seconds for a 15A stress to open the breaker
at room temperature.
I would bet that you could 'protect' your system
with a 5A breaker. Give it a try and report back
to us. The worst case scenario says you'll need
to upsize to a 7A breaker but certainly no larger.
The shielding in this system offers no observable
benefits in your airplane. The wires within the
strobe system are neither potential victims, nor are
they strong antagonists for ELECTROSTATIC coupled
events. Further, the twisting of the wires as they
pass next to a magnetometer is all the protection
you need for what is an exceedingly weak interference
potential for MAGNETIC coupling . . . and shielding
has NO effect on magnetic coupling.
A prop-synchronizer I proposed to Beech back about
1978 sensed the firing of a spark plug by means
of an inductive pickup on the SHIELDED plug wire.
| Quote: | |  Of course I will use a larger wire from the breaker and switch but that still leaves 20awg to the lights. Aero also now recommends using the Shield as the return ground to the main grounding point rather than a Local ground. This is important for the magnetometer which in my case is in the tail. |
I went to their website to see if I could
download the installation manual . . . all I
found was product photos.
| Quote: | | Any comments would be appreciated |
If that ever nuisance trips, I'll buy you
a Big Mac and a cup of coffee . . . In the
mean time, I'll drop them a note to see
if they'll send me a system to bench test
from which we'll have MEASURED performance
data from which to make more rational decisions
for breaker sizing.
Bob . . .
|
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: breaker size for AeroLED |
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Fuses are inexpensive. Try a 5 amp. If it blows, then go up to the next standard size, 7.5 amp, slow blow if available.
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_________________
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:21 pm Post subject: breaker size for AeroLED |
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At 02:30 PM 4/21/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | | So: if you are using fuses, stay with 5amp or go to 7amp |
Fuses are a critter of a different breed.
For continuous loading we like to derate them
about 20% . . . further, peaking loads with
durations on the order of 0.2 seconds will
'peck away' at the fusible link and weaken
it. If you want to use a fuse with this system,
stay with the 20AWG recommended wire and go up
to a 10A fuse . . . this DOES NOT pose a risk
to the wires . . . our legacy 22AWG/5A, 20/7, 18/10,
16/12, 14/15 'protection rules' are exceedingly
conservative.
Upsizing a fuse to 10A to avoid nuisance trips due
to spike-weakening is a rational design
decision.
Bob . . .
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