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Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

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JL2A

Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Posts: 113
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:09 am Post subject: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

Have come across this more than once before... first time running an 'overhauled'   engine direct from the factory, heap of carbon flakes and sludge breaks loose and gets trapped in the firewall oil screen (inlet side of engine).



This time a little different... we installed a full flow filter on the output side of the engine as per CPs instructions. New oil hoses. Ultrasonically cleaned oil tank and oil cooler. So aside from the engine, everything is squeaky clean.



Ran engine for 1 hour. Cut filter, flakes, but not too many. Pulled oil screen - chocked full!



How is this so? If the filter is catching anything that comes out of engine, how does it end up on the inlet side of the engine? The filter does not seem at all blocked and gotta assume it is not bypassing...

rickkelleyfly(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:46 am Post subject: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

You still have the oil cooler. It has not been cleaned it may just be residual. 



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On May 26, 2016, at 5:09 AM, JL2A <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au> wrote:

 

 

 

 Have come across this more than once before... first time running an 'overhauled'  [Rolling Eyes] engine, heap of carbon flakes and sludge breaks loose and gets trapped in the firewall oil filter screen.

 

 This time a little different... we installed a full flow filter on the output side of the engine as per CPs instructions. New oil hoses. Ultrasonically cleaned oil tank and oil cooler. So aside from the engine, everything is squeaky clean.

 

 Ran engine for 1 hour. Cut filter, flakes, but not too many. Pulled oil screen - chocked full!

 

 How is this so? If the filter is catching anything that comes out of engine, how does it end up on the inlet side of the engine? The filter does not seem at all blocked and gotta assume it is not bypassing...

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456568#456568

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:37 am Post subject: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

Are you sure you have the external filter on the same line  between the engine and the oil cooler?

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby   

  In a message dated 5/26/2016 6:46:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  rickkelleyfly(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: Richard Kelley    <rickkelleyfly(at)gmail.com>



You still have the oil cooler. It has    not been cleaned it may just be residual. 



Sent from my    iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On May 26, 2016, at 5:09 AM, JL2A    <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au> wrote:

 

 --> Yak-List    message posted by: "JL2A" <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au>

 

    Have come across this more than once before... first time running an    'overhauled'  [Rolling Eyes] engine, heap of carbon flakes and sludge    breaks loose and gets trapped in the firewall oil filter screen.

    

 This time a little different... we installed a full flow filter on    the output side of the engine as per CPs instructions. New oil hoses.    Ultrasonically cleaned oil tank and oil cooler. So aside from the engine,    everything is squeaky clean.

 

 Ran engine for 1 hour. Cut    filter, flakes, but not too many. Pulled oil screen - chocked full!

    

 How is this so? If the filter is catching anything that comes out of    engine, how does it end up on the inlet side of the engine? The filter does    not seem at all blocked and gotta assume it is not bypassing...

    

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

    

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456568#456568

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:05 am Post subject: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

"Ultrasonically cleaned oil tank and cooler -------- everything is squeaky 

clean"



Well, not necessarily.   Back in the early days of NDT in the airline 

business we used radiography (x-ray) to confirm the internal condition of 

DC-6 (R2800) oil coolers after their time on the auto flushing/shaking 

fixture.   Worked just fine for this aluminum alloy cooler as carbon, 

sludge, metal etc. provided adequate density for a good radiographic image.



We also operated DC-3's which used the traditional AN oil cooler made of 

copper, brass and lead.  The CJ cooler is it's little brother.  No 

radiographic technique was found adequate and our standard procedure for 

overhaul was to remove sections of the tubing to enhance the cleaning 

process and provide visual inspection access.

Tubing replaced (soldering process) after cleaning.



Today it is probably cheaper to buy a NEW, not "cleaned" cooler if you want 

to approach airline standards.



Walt





--

rmhou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:45 am Post subject: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

I always wonder why we can't replace the stock oil cooler with a 300 hp class Stewart Warner style oil cooler? There is room to install it in the engine cowl so we don't have to deal with replacing the long oil hoses every few years (very labor intensive job). At around $500, these U.S. oil coolers are not cheap but savings on the oil hose replacement should justify the cost. What do you think?



 

    On Thursday, May 26, 2016 11:15 AM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



  



 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>



"Ultrasonically cleaned oil tank and cooler -------- everything is squeaky 

clean"



Well, not necessarily.   Back in the early days of NDT in the airline 

business we used radiography (x-ray) to confirm the internal condition of 

DC-6 (R2800) oil coolers after their time on the auto flushing/shaking 

fixture.   Worked just fine for this aluminum alloy cooler as carbon, 

sludge, metal etc. provided adequate density for a good radiographic image.



We also operated DC-3's which used the traditional AN oil cooler made of 

copper, brass and lead.  The CJ cooler is it's little brother.  No 

radiographic technique was found adequate and our standard procedure for 

overhaul was to remove sections of the tubing to enhance the cleaning 

process and provide visual inspection access.

Tubing replaced (soldering process) after cleaning.



Today it is probably cheaper to buy a NEW, not "cleaned" cooler if you want 

to approach airline standards.



Walt





--

yakman285(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:01 pm Post subject: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

Yes, the filter could be by-passing, it is designed to do so when a 15psi difference occurs. There are taps on each side of the base (in/out) that can be attached to pressure gauges if the problem persists and if inquiring minds Need to Know.



There is also another bypass; it is that tube running alongside the oil cooler. Hopefully that was disassembled, cleaned and re-assembled with new seals and a good spring. I have sent my oil cooler out to Pacific twice in 1300 hours and they did a nice job each time. It is a cost of operating these beasts.

The flakes are coming from the inside of the engine case and gearbox case. CJ's never really run hot enough to let modern oils warm up to where they do the job they were designed, that is clean and then hold particulates in suspension. 

New installations require mineral based oil for the first run-in period, whatever time that turns out to be based on the "stuff" you find in the oil. For first runs on a "fresh" overhaul, I would use the 25 micron, "nominal" size, rather than the 10 micron "absolute" filter. See your local hydraulic supply or tractor store.

After pulling all the jugs off one Huosai. I used plastic scrapers inside the case and then flushed with mineral spirits. It still took 25 hours of flying time and two filters to get it looking a lot better.

Those screen filters assemblies also hold a lot of goop you can't see until the system is flushed. Go back, ground run some more and check again. I really think the best way to keep the oil clean is to go to the "gapless" rings during OH.



Craig Payne

Viperdoc

Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:05 pm Post subject: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

Doing it on the YAK -50 as we speak.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



[quote] On May 26, 2016, at 1:45 PM, Robin Hou <rmhou(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 

 I always wonder why we can't replace the stock oil cooler with a 300 hp class Stewart Warner style oil cooler? There is room to install it in the engine cowl so we don't have to deal with replacing the long oil hoses every few years (very labor intensive job). At around $500, these U.S. oil coolers are not cheap but savings on the oil hose replacement should justify the cost. What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

 On Thursday, May 26, 2016 11:15 AM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 "Ultrasonically cleaned oil tank and cooler -------- everything is squeaky 

 clean"

 

 Well, not necessarily.  Back in the early days of NDT in the airline 

 business we used radiography (x-ray) to confirm the internal condition of 

 DC-6 (R2800) oil coolers after their time on the auto flushing/shaking 

 fixture.  Worked just fine for this aluminum alloy cooler as carbon, 

 sludge, metal etc. provided adequate density for a good radiographic image

_________________
Viperdoc

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:05 pm Post subject: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

When installing an M14R on my 50, an additional oil cooling capacity was necessary. 

The technicians at White Waltham (very knowledgeable people !) offered two solutions: a second oil cooler within the engine cowling, or a bigger oil cooler (from an MI- at the bottom.

I preferred to replace with a bigger oil cooler because the engine would produce more heat than the M14P. 

I only had to make another larger cover (with composite material). 

I also kept the thermo-valve and it really helps to keep the oil temperature at the correct settings, all the time.

Putting an oil cooler inside the cowling will demand extra precautions for cooling. 

You will disturb the flow of cooling air as it has been designed. 

Other components (the air compressor for instance) could starve for cooling air.





Jan

From:  <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com (f16viperdoc(at)me.com)>

Reply-To:  "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

Date:  Friday 27 May 2016 at 06:04

To:  "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

Subject:  Re: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A



Doing it on the YAK -50 as we speak.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On May 26, 2016, at 1:45 PM, Robin Hou <rmhou(at)yahoo.com (rmhou(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote]I always wonder why we can't replace the stock oil cooler with a 300 hp class Stewart Warner style oil cooler? There is room to install it in the engine cowl so we don't have to deal with replacing the long oil hoses every few years (very labor intensive job). At around $500, these U.S. oil coolers are not cheap but savings on the oil hose replacement should justify the cost. What do you think?



 

    On Thursday, May 26, 2016 11:15 AM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:



  



 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>



"Ultrasonically cleaned oil tank and cooler -------- everything is squeaky 

clean"



Well, not necessarily.   Back in the early days of NDT in the airline 

business we used radiography (x-ray) to confirm the internal condition of 

DC-6 (R2800) oil coolers after their time on the auto flushing/shaking 

fixture.   Worked just fine for this aluminum alloy cooler as carbon, 

sludge, metal etc. provided adequate density for a good radiographic image.



We also operated DC-3's which used the traditional AN oil cooler made of 

copper, brass and lead.  The CJ cooler is it's little brother.  No 

radiographic technique was found adequate and our standard procedure for 

overhaul was to remove sections of the tubing to enhance the cleaning 

process and provide visual inspection access.

Tubing replaced (soldering process) after cleaning.



Today it is probably cheaper to buy a NEW, not "cleaned" cooler if you want 

to approach airline standards.



Walt





--

JL2A

Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Posts: 113
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 3:41 am Post subject: Re: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

thanks all. yes the filter is on the engine-to-cooler line.



Have heard of others pulling cylinders and hand cleaning, for a freshly overhauled engine that costs $27,000 from the military/factory! Ludicrous.



I wish someone would start doing proper certified overhauls of these things, we have to chuck them out every 600 hours. Such a waste. (used for commercial operations, cannot run on-condition)

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:44 am Post subject: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

JL2A,If you read the description of work as comes from the Chinese factory or military, you will not find the word "overhauled".Â  They use terms like "new", 1st repairment, 2nd repairment, and so on. Â "Overhaul" is a western term.

It is my understanding that they run a new engine 600 hours and send it in for repair which consists of a top overhaul only unless it is making metal.Â  If they do split the case it is the mechanics call rather they replace the bearings with new or reuse them. Â  A 3rd overhaul would only have to run another 600 hours, so it would be doubtful if they would "waste" a new set of bearing on it. The 4th time engines are used for powering agriculture pumps and wind machines.Â  All accessories are repaired or replaced at each interval.

Theoretically this would mean that you should be able to run your engines to 1800 TT Â providing to did a top overhaul every 600 hours. Â 

Best,

Doug

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 4:42 AM, JL2A <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "JL2A" <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au)>

 

 thanks all. yes the filter is on the engine-to-cooler line.

 

 Have heard of others pulling cylinders and hand cleaning, for a freshly overhauled engine that costs $27,000 from the military/factory! Ludicrous.

 

 I wish someone would start doing proper certified overhauls of these things, we have to chuck them out every 600 hours. Such a waste. (used for commercial operations, cannot run on-condition)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456601#456601

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Lancer

Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 30
Location: Cairns, Australia

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:04 am Post subject: Re: Oil Sludge, Carbon Flakes, Freshly 'Overhauled' HS6A

Doug, that is what I have heard also. After 600hrs all the HS6 really needs in most instances is to have the cylinders overhauled and a new set of rings. The exhaust valves suffer being pulled up into the seat.



The sooner we can get a repair facility approved to do these repairs and start "freshening up" the HS6 the better off we will all be. Going back 10 years it wasn't a problem when you could buy a 600hr engine for $6000!!!

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