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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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 Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:52 am Post subject: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
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I would like to learn about the experiences of Kolb builders and pilots who have used the flaperon setup. I know that some Kolb models were designed with them, and some were not. If anyone has used them on a Firestar, I'm of course most interested in that since that is what I'm building.
If someone can show me exactly where in the "archives" this info/experience/discussion can be found I will be glad to look it up and see if it addresses my interests without starting the discussion over again. If people want to discuss the subject again here as a new topic, that's fine with me too if it's OK with the forum bandwidth police  .
I would like to consider using flaperons on the Firestar for maximizing the slow speed landing and takeoff performance. I know very well that ALL Kolb aircraft have very good STOL performance. But some of the short wing models used flaperons, and although I'm sure it is less "necessary" on the long wing Kolbs it may yield a little shorter ground roll. What I'm looking to learn is how the mechanism works, how easy/hard it is to incorporate it into the Firestar, and what control deflection amounts worked or didn't work.
If someone has direct comparison experience, such as "the flaperons on the Slingshot did X, Y, and Z but on the Firestar they only do A, B, and C and it's not worth it"... OR if their experience is "the Firestar is already a STOL rocket and the flaperons make it fly even slower and take off faster!!!" that would be most welcome.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
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flywithme
Joined: 27 Apr 2016
Posts: 19
Location: oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
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I too would enjoy listening in on any experience with flaperons. i have a Firefly with flaperons and from reading i can see very little discussion on their use. i may be wrong but at least in the firefly i think most people fly their plane to the ground with out flaps.
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:47 am Post subject: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
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After a brief search of the Kolb List archives, it was clear that there are advantages and disadvantages to flaps, flaperons, and just plain ailerons.
THANK YOU to Matt Dralle, John H, and all the other experienced Kolb pilots for contributing to the archives.
Because all of these configurations have different advantages, and I don't have John's range of experience flying the Kolbs, instead of flaperons I'm going to look into building separate flaps and ailerons. The reason for this is that it gives me options to experiment with, like controlling the flaps and ailerons separately, together, proportionally mixed (twist), and even other exotic possibilities like the "crow" function that I enjoyed so much on the AS-W20 glider.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
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On Thu, 6/2/16, flywithme <constrjh(at)pldi.net> wrote:
Subject: Question re: Kolb Flaperons
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 2, 2016, 11:56 AM
"flywithme" <constrjh(at)pldi.net>
I too would enjoy listening in on any experience with
flaperons. i have a Firefly with flaperons and from reading
i can see very little discussion on their use. i may be
wrong but at least in the firefly i think most people fly
their plane to the ground with out flaps.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456781#456781
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
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I've flown the SS and FF quite a bit over the years. The flaperons are useless as tits on a boar hog.
Gene Zimmerman has flaps on his modified Kolb. Maybe he'll chime in here.
Flaps on my MKIII, serial number 11, not an Xtra, work great, and I use them most every time for landing. Seldom use them for T/O because it takes off so well. Usually use them for T/O in severe conditions, rough field, wet with standing water, mud, sand, tall grass and weeds, or when carrying a large passenger and have limited airstrip.
My MKIII has 20 and 40 degrees of flaps, which really slows the airplane down, increases rate of descent without building a lot of airspeed. Besides, they are fun to play with.
The MKIII climbs better without flaps. Their purpose, for me, is to break ground and fly. Soon as I am off the ground, gain a little airspeed, I get rid of them.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:31 pm Post subject: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
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John,
On the Firefly, did you find the flaperons did not affect the flying at all or that the affect was minimal?
So far I have only tried the first notch and found that it lowered the straight ahead stall speed by maybe 2 MPH and on approach to landing it did seem to steepen the approach. Landing roll seemed to be about the same. Basically it as soon as you go to idle and get the tail down, it stops. I have not tried take off with any flap applied.
As I am soon to move to a 600' strip I am most likely to start playing with the flaps more. Any input/stories/advice you have would be greatly appreciated. I like to gather as much input as possible before striking out with something new.
Thanks,
Stuart
Serenity-447-3 blade WARP-Fat tires and brakes
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
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I don't know how much you weigh, but the 447 FF was a regular rocket with my 180 lbs. I really could not tell much difference between using flaps or not, so I didn't use them. I
I don't know what kind of approach and departure you have. Kind of remember it is going to be one way in and one way out. Unless you have really tall trees at the threshold you may not have problems. You can also shoot your approach at 90 degrees if that option is clear and you can get down lower. That's the secret for a short field. To be able to get down low at the threshold.
I flew my Ultrastar off 600 feet, but had pretty good approach and a 25 mph stall.
If it was me, I'd take my time and emphasize to myself that I did not have to land until everything felt 100%. If it didn't, I'd go somewhere else and land, do some more homework, and try again.
One cannot make the airplane do something it does not want to do.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
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stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:44 pm Post subject: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
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In summer clothes I am probably close to 220. I know the FF will climb like a homesick angel at 40 MPH indicated, but that steep of an angle makes me nervous. For one thing your reflexes have to be really quick should the engine sputter. I like 50 better.
You are right, the plan is to take off to the north where the trees are shorter and a 30 degree right turn will put me out over open fields. Landing to the south would be a 30 degree turn from a weird shaped base to final. On the south end of the field the trees are taller but there is a gap to squeak through in an emergency.
Last year at Y19 I practiced on 400' of grass between the taxi way and the main runway. 150' wide and 1000'+ on either end, so I had to imagine my obstacles.
The current plan is to take off to the north and turn away from the trees toward the open area as soon as possible. Then circle around and start making approaches and getting a "feel" for the visual clues and angles needed. If I can't get comfortable enough to land in the first 30 minutes, I will still have enough fuel to easily get back to Y19.
On the FF does the use of full flaps reduce your approach speed or just steepen the angle?
I like going as slow as possible for touchdown and the idea of staying up a little higher, then "dropping" in gives the added bonus of extra height for engine problems. But it is also something else to possible complicate things when you least need them complicated.
In my case, if flaps don't lower the approach speed or significantly shorten the takeoff roll, I don't see much need for them as an angled approach will keep me in the clear.
I am getting anxious to get out and try it.
Thanks for the input.
Stuart
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:44 pm Post subject: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
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Perhaps you should take it up to altitude and see what speed indicated that it stalls with the flaps on. That is much preferable to taking someone else's word for what their ff preforms at.
Larry
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