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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 1:22 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

I'm well aware that hundreds and hundreds of Kolb aircraft have flown successfully with the stock design control surfaces. 



I would like very much to know the exact weight of a stock plans-built elevator. Does anyone have a stock, plans-built, un-covered Firestar 2 elevator that they can get a weight on for comparison?



Mine will certainly be a little heavier, and I would love to know exactly how much of a weight penalty I have paid for my changes. One ounce... twelve ounces... three pounds?



If someone will weigh a stock uncovered elevator and post the weight I will do the same with my modified elevator and we will; see just how much of a penalty there is for the slight increase in strength.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.comÂ  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------



 

 

 "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 

 One 1/8" rivet holding a rib tube is more than satisfactory

 for the application.Â  That single rivet is not close to

 failure.Â  If it was, I guarantee you some of us would

 have already proven it during hard flight, mishandling, and

 crashes.

 

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 2:33 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Stronger, heavier doesn't accomplish anything when there is no requirement.  



I don't see the requirement to make the elevator stronger, except in a couple areas.  The stock elevator has two weaknesses that are simple to correct.  These same weaknesses are also shared by the rudder.  I believe I shared my solution with the Kolb List.  Should be in the archives.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 2:42 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Bill,



By all means, weigh your bare parts before covering and record the results. You don't have to share them but at least you will have the data for future comparisons or to answer questions others have. (I wish I had done this and the bare airframe too. Then the painted plane, before engine and instruments).



At any rate, I don't know how much stronger your changes will be. However, I do know that you can easily crush a stock design and probably yours too with just the shrinking of the fabric. Covering seems to be part skill and part artistic ability. 



My only concern for your changes is that any added weight will contribute to the tendency for a control surface to flutter. The usual cure is to add a counter balance. Effective but at the cost of an over-all weight gain. The more you add, the more you have to add. Gets into a vicious cycle.



I once heard it said that when you are trying to decide if you want to put something on a plane, first toss it into the air. If it falls to the ground it is time to rethink how badly you need that part. 



Stuart



--

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 3:44 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Where exactly in the archives can I find the posting on the weaknesses you found in the elevator and rudder?



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.comÂ  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 5/31/16, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



 Subject: RE: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2016, 3:18 PM

 

 

 "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 Stronger, heavier doesn't accomplish anything when there is

 no requirement.Â  

 

 I don't see the requirement to make the elevator stronger,

 except in a couple areas.Â  The stock elevator has two

 weaknesses that are simple to correct.Â  These same

 weaknesses are also shared by the rudder.Â  I believe I

 shared my solution with the Kolb List.Â  Should be in

 the archives.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:47 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Bill B/Kolbers:



You probably will not have to use my update if you use a large gusset on the inboard rib at the elevator leading edge attachment, top and bottom.  I used gussets there on my MKIII after I discovered the single 1/8 X .5" rivet was loosening up.  Since my elevator and rudder were finished for some time, I added the gussets on top of the fabric.  Did the same thing with the bottom rib at the rudder leading edge, both sides.  No more problems in more than 3,000.0 hours.



I've got to check on my airplane tomorrow.  If I remember I will take some photos of the gussets and try to also measure them.



These are locations where a gusset was needed.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mojavjoe

Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 64

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:06 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Bill



My FSII was damaged by a wind storm and one of the repairs I had to make was to my right elevator. After making it very similar to your design I compared it's weight to the left. That was over a year ago and don't remember the exact weights but I believe it was in the neighborhood of 4 or 5 ozs.



Joe



From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 5:07:00 PM

Subject: RE: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report

--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

I'm well aware that hundreds and hundreds of Kolb aircraft have flown successfully with the stock design control surfaces. 

I would like very much to know the exact weight of a stock plans-built elevator. Does anyone have a stock, plans-built, un-covered Firestar 2 elevator that they can get a weight on for comparison?

Mine will certainly be a little heavier, and I would love to know exactly how much of a weight penalty I have paid for my changes. One ounce... twelve ounces... three pounds?

If someone will weigh a stock uncovered elevator and post the weight I will do the same with my modified elevator and we will; see just how much of a penalty there is for the slight increase in strength.

Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by:

 "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 

 One 1/8" rivet holding a rib tube is more than satisfactory

 for the application.  That single rivet is not close to

 failure.  If it was, I guarantee you some of us would

 have already proven it during hard flight, mishandling, and

 crashes.

 

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 --

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:12 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Thanks Joe, I appreciate knowing the approximate weight gain from your repair. That is approximately what my wild guess was... a quarter of a pound. I would be very grateful to have additional data on control surface weights from other aircratft or builders.



A good example for ONE of the reasons for my changes is illustrated by something in the completely separate and different area of high tech composite aircraft design. The exact opposite of a Kolb of course. The people who have tried to make super super ultra light composite ultralights (light hang gliders, "suitcase" ultralights, racing and record setting aircraft) have found that the actual structural requirement for a carbon fiber skin on a wing or control surface is actually paper thin. The engineers worked their slide rules and realized that the carbon fiber was so strong that a few thousandths of an inch thickness was plenty strong for flight loads. But when they built these super hi-tech parts they learned that you could poke your finger through it on the ground, or picking up the part the wrong way would crack it, etc. Dropping the part on the ground would wreck it.



Turns out that they realized this previously as well.... as someone has mentioned, there are ultralight wood and aluminum structures so lightly built that they will take all the flying loads just fine but when you shrink the fabric it will turn a straight control surface into a potato chip.



Ground handling, "hangar rash", brush and branches all have to be taken into account for a truly usable aircraft.



I'm also glad to hear about the small weakness that was previouslyfound in one area of the elevator and rudder. John H mentioned that a slightly larger or thicker  gusset provided a little extra strength where it is needed. I would be grateful to know where in the archives to find that information, or photo, etc.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.comÂ  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 6/1/16, mojavjoe(at)comcast.net <mojavjoe(at)comcast.net> wrote:



 Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report

 To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: Wednesday, June 1, 2016, 8:51 AM

 

 Bill

 

 My FSII

 was damaged by a wind storm and one of the repairs I had to

 make was to my right elevator. After making it very similar

 to your design I comparedÂ it's weight to the

 left.Â That wasÂ over a year ago and don't

 remember the exact weights but I believe it was in the

 neighborhood of 4 or 5 ozs.

 

 Joe

 

 From: "Bill

 Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 To: "kolb-list"

 <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 5:07:00 PM

 Subject: RE: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar

 Progress report

 

 

 <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 

 I'm well aware that hundreds and hundreds of Kolb

 aircraft have flown successfully with the stock design

 control surfaces. 

 

 I would like very much to know the exact weight of a

 stock plans-built elevator. Does anyone have a stock,

 plans-built, un-covered Firestar 2 elevator that they can

 get a weight on for comparison?

 

 Mine will certainly be a little heavier, and I would

 love to know exactly how much of a weight penalty I have

 paid for my changes. One ounce... twelve ounces... three

 pounds?

 

 If someone will weigh a stock uncovered elevator and

 post the weight I will do the same with my modified elevator

 and we will; see just how much of a penalty there is for the

 slight increase in strength.

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.comÂ  - safety & performance

 upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -

 winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 

 Â 

 Â 

 Â "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 Â 

 Â 

 Â One 1/8" rivet holding a rib tube is more than

 satisfactory

 Â for the application.Â  That single rivet is not

 close to

 Â failure.Â  If it was, I guarantee you some of us

 would

 Â have already proven it during hard flight,

 mishandling, and

 Â crashes.

 Â 

 Â 

 Â john h

 Â mkIII

 Â Titus, Alabama

 Â 

 Â 

 Â 

 Â --

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:48 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

.32 is too thick. If you make sheet metal U channel ribs, use .16 or .20 and they'll be light as feathers.



Dennis "Skid" Rowe



On May 31, 2016, at 6:47 AM, mojavjoe(at)comcast.net (mojavjoe(at)comcast.net) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Bill



I built replicas of your new design while transferring parts from my FSII to my FSSS, found them significantly heavier and went back to the old design. I redesigned the alerions as well using .032 sheet to form ribs. Once again too heavy and I'm back to the old design. I wish you luck in your build.

Joe. 



From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>

Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:01:50 AM

Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Hi Gene, thank you for the inquiry. I probably attached a photo to the original e-mail that showed the elevator under construction, not completed.

My control surfaces do indeed have "triangulation". There is an upper and lower structural rib "cap" at each rib location. The "Caps" are standard Kolb 5/16" tubes just like the plans show. 

BUT...  instead of the standard Kolb design of riveting the tubes directly to the leading edge and trailing edge, I attached them using .032" aluminum gusset plates. This is actually permitted and shown on the Kolb plans near the back of the plan set as an alternate method of attaching the (upper) rib tubes to the trailing edge tube. 

What I did that was completely different than the plans is this: 

1) The front of the upper and lower rib tube attach is done using a gusset at the top and another gusset at the bottom, with the rib tubes approximately FLUSH with the top and bottom of the leading edge tube. This is somewhat like the method used in the Graham Lee and Robert Baslee Nieuport replicas.

2) At the trailing edge, the method I used starts off like the Kolb "optional" method at the back of the plans. A small triangular gusset sits "Across" the 90 degree joint between the top rib tube and trailing edge tube. Then, the bottom rib tube comes back at a very slight angle to rest NEXT TO the top rib tube, nesting against the same triangular gusset attaching the top rib tube. This way the thickness of the trailing edge is not increased, it is still one 5/16" tube. 

Looking from the side view, you would see the trailing edge tube with one of the rib tubes butting up against it, and you would not see the other rib tube because it would be behind the first one. Then you would see the edge of the .032 gusset sitting on the top of the intersection.

So the finished elevator ribs actually look like what you can see in the photo attached tot his e-mail....

Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 5/30/16, Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm(at)gmail.com (etzimm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report

 To: "Kolb list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Date: Monday, May 30, 2016, 4:24 PM

 

 Bill, Your photos show single tubes

 from leading edge to trailing edge. Is this according to

 your Kolb plans or your own modification? Every Kolb flight

 surface Iâ€™ve ever built required a second tube for

 triangulation in order to transfer the input torque to the

 control surface.Here is a graphic

 that will hopefully show what Iâ€™m concerned

 about.

 

 

 

 

 On May 20,

 2016, at 6:00 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 wrote:

 

 Made progress on the first elevator

 half tonight. Similar to rudder,

 triangular sheet metal

 gussets at

 the intersections. Home-made quickie rivet

 locator tool works well. I will

 probably make a better steel

 one

 when I get to the ailerons because the ones I made from

 aluminum are starting to wear after

 about 50 holes.

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  -

 safety & performance upgrade

 for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net    

       - winning proposals for

 non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 -<Elevator

 Under Construction.jpg><Elevator

 Gussets 1.jpg>

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aileron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility of 

being stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structural caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and trailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206.



When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an aileron/flaperon using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more flutter resistant control surface... or it may not.



Bill



On Thu, 6/2/16, Dennis Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net> wrote:



 

 .32 is too thick. If you make sheet metal U channel ribs, use .16

 or .20 and they'll be light as feathers.

 

 Dennis "Skid"

 Rowe

 

 

 On May 31,

 2016, at 6:47 AM, mojavjoe(at)comcast.net

 wrote:

 

 Hi

 Bill

 

 I built replicas of your new design

 while transferring parts from my FSII to my FSSS, found them

 significantly heavier and went back to the old design. I

 redesigned the alerions as well using .032 sheet to form

 ribs. Once again too heavy and I'm back to the old

 design. I wish you luck in your build.

 Joe.Â 

 

 From: "Bill

 Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:01:50

 AM

 Subject: Re: Fw: Re:

 Kolb Firestar Progress report

 

 Hi Gene, thank you for the inquiry. I

 probably attached a photo to the original e-mail that showed

 the elevator under construction, not completed.

 

 My control surfaces

 do indeed have "triangulation". There is an upper

 and lower structural rib "cap" at each rib

 location. The "Caps" are standard Kolb 5/16"

 tubes just like the plans show. 

 

 BUT... Â instead of the standard Kolb

 design of riveting the tubes directly to the leading edge

 and trailing edge, I attached them using .032" aluminum

 gusset plates. This is actually permitted and shown on the

 Kolb plans near the back of the plan set as an alternate

 method of attaching the (upper) rib tubes to the trailing

 edge tube. 

 

 What

 I did that was completely different than the plans is this:

 

 

 1) The front of

 the upper and lower rib tube attach is done using a gusset

 at the top and another gusset at the bottom, with the rib

 tubes approximately FLUSH with the top and bottom of the

 leading edge tube. This is somewhat like the method used in

 the Graham Lee and Robert Baslee Nieuport replicas.

 

 2) At the trailing

 edge, the method I used starts off like the Kolb

 "optional" method at the back of the plans. A

 small triangular gusset sits "Across" the 90

 degree joint between the top rib tube and trailing edge

 tube. Then, the bottom rib tube comes back at a very slight

 angle to rest NEXT TO the top rib tube, nesting against the

 same triangular gusset attaching the top rib tube. This way

 the thickness of the trailing edge is not increased, it is

 still one 5/16" tube. 

 

 Looking from the side view, you would see

 the trailing edge tube with one of the rib tubes butting up

 against it, and you would not see the other rib tube because

 it would be behind the first one. Then you would see the

 edge of the .032 gusset sitting on the top of the

 intersection.

 

 So

 the finished elevator ribs actually look like what you can

 see in the photo attached tot his e-mail....

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.comÂ 

 - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net Â  Â 

 Â  Â  Â  - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit

 entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Mon, 5/30/16, Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm(at)gmail.com>

 wrote:

 

 Â Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Kolb

 Firestar Progress report

 Â To: "Kolb

 list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Â Date: Monday, May 30, 2016, 4:24 PM

 Â 

 Â Bill,Â Your photos show

 single tubes

 Â from leading edge to trailing

 edge. Is this according to

 Â your Kolb plans

 or your own modification? Every Kolb flight

 Â surface Iâ€™ve ever built required a second

 tube for

 Â triangulation in order to

 transfer the input torque to the

 Â control

 surface.Here is a graphic

 Â that will

 hopefully show what Iâ€™m concerned

 Â about.

 Â 

 Â 

 Â 

 Â 

 Â On May 20,

 Â 2016, at 6:00

 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 Â wrote:

 Â 

 Â Made progress on the first elevator

 Â half tonight. Similar to rudder,

 Â triangular sheet metal

 Â gussets at

 Â the

 intersections. Home-made quickie rivet

 Â locator tool works well. I will

 Â probably make a better steel

 Â one

 Â when I get to the

 ailerons because the ones I made from

 Â aluminum are starting to wear after

 Â about 50 holes.

 Â 

 Â Bill Berle

 Â www.ezflaphandle.comÂ 

 -

 Â safety & performance upgrade

 Â for light aircraft

 Â www.grantstar.net Â 

 Â 

 Â Â  Â  Â  - winning proposals for

 Â non-profit and for-profit entities

 Â 

 Â -<Elevator

 Â Under Construction.jpg><Elevator

 Â Gussets 1.jpg>

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:56 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Palmer Alaska , sorry we missed you,  the  Michiganders are headed to Fairbanks thuresday am  then to Talkeetna  for a week each. If there are ay Kolbers up here I would love to meet you.   Call any time.   Mal 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

 

  	  Quote: 	
		    On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Bill Berle

<victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

   --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <[url=javascript:return]victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net[/url]>



I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aileron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility of 

being stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structural caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and trailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206.



When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an aileron/flaperon using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more flutter resistant control surface... or it may not.



Bill



On Thu, 6/2/16, Dennis Rowe <[url=javascript:return]rowedenny(at)windstream.net[/url]> wrote:



 

 .32 is too thick. If you make sheet metal U channel ribs, use .16

 or .20 and they'll be light as feathers.

 

 Dennis "Skid"

 Rowe

 

 

 On May 31,

 2016, at 6:47 AM, [url=javascript:return]mojavjoe(at)comcast.net[/url]

 wrote:

 

 Hi

 Bill

 

 I built replicas of your new design

 while transferring parts from my FSII to my FSSS, found them

 significantly heavier and went back to the old design. I

 redesigned the alerions as well using .032 sheet to form

 ribs. Once again too heavy and I'm back to the old

 design. I wish you luck in your build.

 Joe. 

 

 From: "Bill

 Berle" <[url=javascript:return]victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net[/url]>

 To: "kolb-list" <[url=javascript:return]kolb-list(at)matronics.com[/url]>

 Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:01:50

 AM

 Subject: Re: Fw: Re:

 Kolb Firestar Progress report

 

 Hi Gene, thank you for the inquiry. I

 probably attached a photo to the original e-mail that showed

 the elevator under construction, not completed.

 

 My control surfaces

 do indeed have "triangulation". There is an upper

 and lower structural rib "cap" at each rib

 location. The "Caps" are standard Kolb 5/16"

 tubes just like the plans show. 

 

 BUT...  instead of the standard Kolb

 design of riveting the tubes directly to the leading edge

 and trailing edge, I attached them using .032" aluminum

 gusset plates. This is actually permitted and shown on the

 Kolb plans near the back of the plan set as an alternate

 method of attaching the (upper) rib tubes to the trailing

 edge tube. 

 

 What

 I did that was completely different than the plans is this:

 

 

 1) The front of

 the upper and lower rib tube attach is done using a gusset

 at the top and another gusset at the bottom, with the rib

 tubes approximately FLUSH with the top and bottom of the

 leading edge tube. This is somewhat like the method used in

 the Graham Lee and Robert Baslee Nieuport replicas.

 

 2) At the trailing

 edge, the method I used starts off like the Kolb

 "optional" method at the back of the plans. A

 small triangular gusset sits "Across" the 90

 degree joint between the top rib tube and trailing edge

 tube. Then, the bottom rib tube comes back at a very slight

 angle to rest NEXT TO the top rib tube, nesting against the

 same triangular gusset attaching the top rib tube. This way

 the thickness of the trailing edge is not increased, it is

 still one 5/16" tube. 

 

 Looking from the side view, you would see

 the trailing edge tube with one of the rib tubes butting up

 against it, and you would not see the other rib tube because

 it would be behind the first one. Then you would see the

 edge of the .032 gusset sitting on the top of the

 intersection.

 

 So

 the finished elevator ribs actually look like what you can

 see in the photo attached tot his e-mail....

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com 

 - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net    

       - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit

 entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Mon, 5/30/16, Eugene Zimmerman <[url=javascript:return]etzimm(at)gmail.com[/url]>

 wrote:

 

  Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Kolb

 Firestar Progress report

  To: "Kolb

 list" <[url=javascript:return]kolb-list(at)matronics.com[/url]>

  Date: Monday, May 30, 2016, 4:24 PM

  

  Bill, Your photos show

 single tubes

  from leading edge to trailing

 edge. Is this according to

  your Kolb plans

 or your own modification? Every Kolb flight

  surface Iâ€™ve ever built required a second

 tube for

  triangulation in order to

 transfer the input torque to the

  control

 surface.Here is a graphic

  that will

 hopefully show what Iâ€™m concerned

  about.

  

  

  

  

  On May 20,

  2016, at 6:00

 PM, Bill Berle <[url=javascript:return]victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net[/url]>

  wrote:

  

  Made progress on the first elevator

  half tonight. Similar to rudder,

  triangular sheet metal

  gussets at

  the

 intersections. Home-made quickie rivet

  locator tool works well. I will

  probably make a better steel

  one

  when I get to the

 ailerons because the ones I made from

  aluminum are starting to wear after

  about 50 holes.

  

  Bill Berle

  www.ezflaphandle.com 

 -

  safety & performance upgrade

  for light aircraft

  www.grantstar.net  

  

        - winning proposals for

  non-profit and for-profit entities

  

  -<Elevator

  Under Constru://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matrnbsp;                    t; http

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:25 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Don't think you'll make a Kolb aileron more flutter resistant by changing construction material/technique.  You'll have to change the balance point, which we have done with aileron counterbalance weights.



Sheet metal ribs would make flying surfaces and wings much easier and quicker to build.  But, then it wouldn't be a Kolb.  The ailerons, elevators, and ribs, wouldn't have "Homer Bumps".  If they were clean, the airplane would look like a city boy airplane.  Kolbs have their roots in antique tractors and heavy farm equipment, grass strips and cows.  The two go hand in hand.  I've been flying out of Gantt International Airport for 32 years.  Gantt is equipped with grass strips, cows, cow manure, antique tractors, and lots of heavy farm equipment.



Anyone ever experience elevator flutter?  I still cannot understand why they are not prone to flutter.  One reason they don't flutter, possibly, because they work in unison the same direction, and are usually loaded up, one way or the other.  I know of one instance of elevator flutter.  That was caused by an adjustable trim tab mounted inboard on the trailing edge of one elevator.  Somehow it loosened up, went into flutter, and killed the pilot.  Believe that was a Twin Star.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aileron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility of being stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structural caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and trailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206.



When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an aileron/flaperon using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more flutter resistant control surface... or it may not.



Bill

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:02 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

With 100% sincere and appreciative respect for Mr. Kolb and his legacy, if the Kolb community wants me to distance or separate my aircraft from being called a Kolb (because of the modification I made/make) then I will call it something else. 



But this raises the possibility of offending some Kolb people by NOT giving due credit for the basic design, and all the Kolb features that I did not change. 



For example, if I tell someone that this airplane is a Super-Star Model X and that the wing folding mechanism allows it to go from trailer to flight in ten minutes... I can already hear people screaming "You can thank Homer Kolb for that, it didn't come from your mind you disrespectful Bozo !!!"



But again, because I genuinely respect the people who have innovated and designed airplane stuff, everyone can let me know whether they want to call this a Kolb or not. I'll go along with whatever the group wants.



My original plan, for whatever it is worth, was to refer to it a "modified Kolb FireStar" if anyone asked what kind of airplane it is. Maybe I will give it a funny name like The Comical Comet, or Billy's Bomber, or Franken-STOL or something.  



Speaking of aileron balance weights, I notice that some of the later two seat Kolbs have some sort of fiberglass wingtip that makes a different shape (droop tip like a bush plane) but still allows the aileron balance rod to move freely. How is this fiberglass wingtip attached to the trailing edge tube? It would seem that there cannot be an attachment to the trailing edge, because that would interfere with the balance rod movement.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.comÂ  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 6/2/16, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



 Subject: RE: Kolb Firestar Progress report

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thursday, June 2, 2016, 2:25 PM

 

 

 "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 Don't think you'll make a Kolb aileron more flutter

 resistant by changing construction material/technique.Â 

 You'll have to change the balance point, which we have done

 with aileron counterbalance weights.

 

 Sheet metal ribs would make flying surfaces and wings much

 easier and quicker to build.Â  But, then it wouldn't be

 a Kolb.Â  The ailerons, elevators, and ribs, wouldn't

 have "Homer Bumps".Â  If they were clean, the airplane

 would look like a city boy airplane.Â  Kolbs have their

 roots in antique tractors and heavy farm equipment, grass

 strips and cows.Â  The two go hand in hand.Â  I've

 been flying out of Gantt International Airport for 32

 years.Â  Gantt is equipped with grass strips, cows, cow

 manure, antique tractors, and lots of heavy farm equipment.

 

 Anyone ever experience elevator flutter?Â  I still

 cannot understand why they are not prone to flutter.Â 

 One reason they don't flutter, possibly, because they work

 in unison the same direction, and are usually loaded up, one

 way or the other.Â  I know of one instance of elevator

 flutter.Â  That was caused by an adjustable trim tab

 mounted inboard on the trailing edge of one elevator.Â 

 Somehow it loosened up, went into flutter, and killed the

 pilot.Â  Believe that was a Twin Star.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will

 make a flap/aileron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x

 .035 tubes, with a possibility of being stiffer

 (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib

 structural caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet

 to the leading and trailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs

 would be for a Cessna 206.

 

 When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE

 section of an aileron/flaperon using the stock leading edge

 tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft Spruce pre-fab

 trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more

 flutter resistant control surface... or it may not.

 

 Bill

 

  

 

 

 

 

 Forum -

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 Dralle, List Admin.

dennislees135(at)comcast.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:11 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Hello,

 

Just woke up from a long nap … big yawn.

 

Elevators are less prone to flutter because of friction and cables – these provide dampening. Initiation of flutter  is enhanced by looseness in system.

Piano hinges tend to reduce flutter vs. a pin/hinge system because there is certain amount of built in friction in piano hinges.

Ailerons with P-P linkage are relative loose compared to elevators; if ailerons were activated by cables they would probably have less tendency to flutter.

To reduce flutter tendency in ailerons, one or more of the following would help.

<![if !supportLists]>1.      <![endif]> Reduce the weight toward the aft of the aileron, without reducing stiffness.  (little opportunity for enough gain here to make a significant difference)

<![if !supportLists]>2.      <![endif]> Move CG of aileron forward.  A counter balance would do this.

<![if !supportLists]>3.      <![endif]> A thicker wall torque tube should help as it increases the stiffness without moving the CG rearward.

 

Agree that flaps, etc would not enhance TO of FS very much.

TO sequence:  Full power … back stick …. Off you go.

 

But then again, life has taught me that I could be wrong …

 

Dennis

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:35 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Glad you woke up, Dennis.

 

As I travel around I discover that most Kolb aircraft have elevator cables that are not snugged up nice and tight like they should be.  Many are really sloppy, but elevator flutter is not a problem.

 

When I first started flying my MKIII I had severe aileron flutter over 80 mph.  I also had aileron flutter on my Ultrastar and Firestar.  I flew the MKIII to Lakeland, to Homer Kolb's, and to Oshkosh.  Did a photo shoot off a Cessna 208.  All these miles being very careful not to get over 80 mph and stay out of turbulence.  I had to fly over 80 for the photo shoot.  Kept getting into flutter.  Seemed like it took forever to get it done.

 

Before Kolb came up with the aileron counterbalance weights for their Firestar, I was trying everything I could think of to keep out of flutter.  I changed rod end bearings constantly.  Finally, Dick Rahill got into flutter with the FS at S&F.  Kolb came up with the counterbalance weights within days and sent me a set.  Once installed, no more flutter at any airspeed or wind condition.  That was 1993.  I haven't changed aileron rod end bearings since then, over 3,000.0 hours ago.  

 

A lot of Kolbs experience rudder flutter, but not if the pilot keeps his feet planted on the rudder pedals.  I fixed my rudder flutter problem with an extra set of heavy rudder pedal springs.  Now I can fly feet on the deck without fear of rudder flutter.

 

Kolb Aircraft and all of us Kolbers have solved most all problems we have encountered with them.  I'm happy with my MKIII.  It is a strong aircraft, well proven, and has a lot of hours and years left in her.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Souder

Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 8:11 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report

 

Hello,

 

Just woke up from a long nap … big yawn.

 

Elevators are less prone to flutter because of friction and cables – these provide dampening. Initiation of flutter  is enhanced by looseness in system.

Piano hinges tend to reduce flutter vs. a pin/hinge system because there is certain amount of built in friction in piano hinges.

Ailerons with P-P linkage are relative loose compared to elevators; if ailerons were activated by cables they would probably have less tendency to flutter.

To reduce flutter tendency in ailerons, one or more of the following would help.

<![if !supportLists]>1.       <![endif]> Reduce the weight toward the aft of the aileron, without reducing stiffness.  (little opportunity for enough gain here to make a significant difference)

<![if !supportLists]>2.       <![endif]> Move CG of aileron forward.  A counter balance would do this.

<![if !supportLists]>3.       <![endif]> A thicker wall torque tube should help as it increases the stiffness without moving the CG rearward.

 

Agree that flaps, etc would not enhance TO of FS very much.

TO sequence:  Full power … back stick …. Off you go.

 

But then again, life has taught me that I could be wrong …

 

Dennis

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:39 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Well John I am very glad you survived those early days of aileron flutter... in all likelihood, if it was truly severe flutter you would have lost an aileron or a wing within a very short time. Flutter has destroyed airplanes a whole lot heavier and stronger than a Kolb.



The counterbalances are probably very well worthwhile. I plan to balance my ailerons, even though it does not show the balances on the plans I have. My plans are dated 1993, and the Kolb factory had recently replied to me that there have been no updates to those plans or the build manual. So I am surprised that the "current" plans show no aileron balance. John, Dennis... is there anything that the Kolb factory should have told me that they forgot to mention?



One of the things I want to do is to drive the ailerons (and flaps) from their centers instead of their ends. Of course this means I have to put bellcranks in the wing, but I believe it is WELL worth the extra 8 ounces of aluminum. Driving the ailerons from the center will reduce or perhaps eliminate the twisting of the ailerons that I have read so much about. The central control horn will also allow me to put part or all of the balance weight there.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.comÂ  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 6/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



Â When I first started flying my

 MKIII I had severe aileron flutter over 80 mph.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:18 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

I have experienced severe flutter in my MKIII, FS, and US.  I consider flutter severe when it snatches the stick out of your hand.  Kolbs are extremely strong airplanes, if built to factory specs.  If not, I would have experienced catastrophic failure.



The Factory counterbalance weights are not worthwhile.  They are necessary.



You'll have to contact the Factory if you have a problem with plans.  Did you buy a new FS from the Factory?



The twist you have heard about is extremely minor.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:47 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Hi John and Kolb list members,



I bought a used kit from the second owner. I contacted Kolb during the purchase, and Bryan was very very helpful... he indicdated that he would support the project and sell me any parts that were needed. EXCELLENT "customer support", even for someone who did not buy the kit from them.



I sent an e-mail to them letting them know this was FireStar kit # 636 (hand written in the build manual), and the number F1203 was also stamped on the engine mount upper tube. I later learned that this is the "cage number".



I sent an e-mail to Helen at the Kolb factory with the dates and revision number on the plans and build manual. She sent me an e-mail saying that I had the most current versions.



My plans DO NOT show any counterweight arm on the one drawing of the aileron. I looked at it twice or three times to make sure.



So if Helen at the factory tells me that I have the current plans, and those plans do not show a critical safety upgrade ... where am I going wrong?



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.comÂ  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 6/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



 Subject: RE: Kolb Firestar Progress report

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, June 3, 2016, 6:17 PM

 

 

 "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 I have experienced severe flutter in my MKIII, FS, and

 US.Â  I consider flutter severe when it snatches the

 stick out of your hand.Â  Kolbs are extremely strong

 airplanes, if built to factory specs.Â  If not, I would

 have experienced catastrophic failure.

 

 The Factory counterbalance weights are not worthwhile.Â 

 They are necessary.

 

 You'll have to contact the Factory if you have a problem

 with plans.Â  Did you buy a new FS from the Factory?

 

 The twist you have heard about is extremely minor.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

 

 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:09 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Thought you were going to change the ailerons and design your own counterbalance weights?



My FS Manual is dated 1986.  No aileron counterbalance weights.  



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:30 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

Whatever modifications I am considering, or designing, or doing, are one thing. Having the correct information  about the aircraft,a nd having the information about what others have succeeded or failed with, is another thing. They are not mutually exclusive.



I'm really sorry that my attempts at ingenuity (or customizing my Kolb like so many others have customized theirs) seems to rattle everyone's cage, The archives and people's build logs show a lot of customizing, improvement, and addressing weaknesses or room for improvement in the basic design. 



But where the safety of an aircraft, its piilot, or even people on the ground are concerned, we need to put all that aside and address any and all safety issues..I can say with absolute authority that this is what real aviators do. 



My plans are dated 1993, no aileron counterweight. Can anyone explain WHY?



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.comÂ  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 6/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



 Subject: RE: Kolb Firestar Progress report

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, June 3, 2016, 9:09 PM

 

 

 "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 Thought you were going to change the ailerons and design

 your own counterbalance weights?

 

 My FS Manual is dated 1986.Â  No aileron counterbalance

 weights.Â  

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:53 pm Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report

I don't think the aileron counterbalance weights existed for the FS in 1993.  That is probably why they didn't make your Builders Manual and Plans.



Kolb Aircraft, to the best of my knowledge, expedited design, manufacture, and distribution of counterbalance weights as soon as they discovered the need for them, probably 1994.



I haven't seen a FS Manual or Plans since 1986, when I built my FS.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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